New Civilization: Gaels (Ireland + Scotland)

By request from Calgacus, a Pan-Gaelic civilization.

Civ: Gaelic Empire [Scotia]
Leaders: Robert Bruce (Peter The Great) and Niall of the Nine Hostages (Genghis Khan)
Flag: Red Saltire on Blue
UU: Fianna (Spearman)


The capital was a hard decision, but I went with Temair (Tara in English), with Glasgow as the second city, Dublin third, Edinburgh fourth, etc.



Enjoy.



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Last Updated: 11/26/05

Excellent. A good combination.

If you want the modern Gaelic names for cities in Scotland and Ireland, check out this place:

Tìr Chaluim Chille


If you want medieval names, I can provide many (for Scotland at least).

For Scotland today, cities such as Glasgow and Edinburgh are the largest, and therefore most important; but they were not as important for the Gaelic period, and in fact were on the fringes of the Gaelic world. In the medieval period about 80% of people in Scotland lived north of the Forth. But anyways, here are lists of modern Gaelic names for important medieval places. They are roughly in order of importance (IMHO), separated into places with cathedrals, royal centers (usually castles or ceremonial sites) and just general cultural sites (there is a general absence of places in Lothian, an area [like the northern isles] that was never really Gaelic):


BISHOPRICS

Dùn Chailleann, (Dunkeld, Bishopric of Athall [=Atholl])
Cill Rìmhinn (St Andrews, Bishopric of Fìobh [=Fife])
Taigh Mhàrtainn (Whithorn, Bishopric of Gall Ghàidhealaibh [=Galloway])
Glaschu (Glasgow, Bishopric of Srath Chluid [=Strathclyde])
Breichin (Brechin, Bishop of Aonghais [=Angus])
Dùn Bhlàthain (Dunblane, Bishop of Srath Èireann [=Srathearn])
Obar Dheathain (Aberdeen, Bishop of Màrr [=Marr])
Eilginn (Elgin, Bishopric of Moireibh [=Moray])
Dòrnach (Dornochm Bishopric of Gallaibh [=Caithness])
Ros Maircnidh [Rosmarkie, or A’Chananaich (= Fortrose;, the two are just next to each other)] (Bishopric of Ros [Ross])
Lios Mòr (Lismore, Bishopric of Earra Ghàidheal [=Argyll])

Also, if it counts,

Purt ny h-Inshey (Bishopric of Sodor/Innse Gall/Mann)


ROYAL CENTERS


Sgàinn (Scone)
Dùn Phàrlain (Dunfermline)
Peairt (Perth)
Dùn Fhothair (Dunnottar)
Dùn Èideann (Edinburgh)
Tòrr an Dùin (Burghead)
Sruighlea (Stirling)
Fothair Tabhaicht (Forteviot)
Dùn Dèagh (also Baile Ailleag = Dundee)
Inbhir Àir (Ayr)
Dùn Breatann (Dumbarton)
Inbhir Pheofharan (Dingwall)
Inbhir Nis (Inverness)
Dùn Dùirn (Dundurn)
Dùn Phris (Dumfries)

CULTURAL CENTERS

A' Chomraich (Applecross)
Obair Neithich (Abernethy)
Baile Ghobhainn (Govan)
Cuileann Ros (Culross)
Pàislig (Paisley)
Obair Bhrothaig (Arbroath)
Dùn Droighnein (Dundrennan)
Port Mo Cholmaig (Portmahomack)
Loch Lìobhann (Loch Leven)
Deir (Deer)
Cill Tighearna (Kiltearn)
Beannchar (Banchory)

Calgacus, always good for info.

What do you think of Tara being the capital, any complaints?

Of course not. Ireland is the homeland, and historically has a much, much, much bigger population. Besides, even the Scottish kings claimed descent from the High-Kings of Tara. But I would say that, if Tara's first, Scone (as the Tara equivalent) should be second.

calgacus said:

Of course not. Ireland is the homeland, and historically has a much, much, much bigger population. Besides, even the Scottish kings claimed descent from the High-Kings of Tara. But I would say that, if Tara's first, Scone (as the Tara equivalent) should be second.

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Aye. I forgot entirely about Scone. The home of the Scottish Lia Fail is second only to ours. Wait, didn't the English steal yours? Oh well, alternative history.

I'll be sure to make it the "second city of the empire" so to speak

Not a bad position to have. Rome was the second city in Napoleon's.

Nice to see someone making a Scots/Irish civ.
I think that England did steal the Stone of Scone (if that's what you mean), but it was returned a few years ago.

Traitorfish said:

Nice to see someone making a Scots/Irish civ.
I think that England did steal the Stone of Scone (if that's what you mean), but it was returned a few years ago.

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True, but well after independent Scotland died out.

When the second version comes out, I'll probably even include a Manx cityname or two. They were Gaels too at one time.

Can you post your current citylist?

What do you mean by 'Gaels'? Do you mean the Celtic tribes that lived in the Birtish Isles, because I think the Gaels were a tribe in themselves. I think that they lived around were Firth or Edinburgh is now (although I may be hideously and utterly wrong).

Traitorfish said:

What do you mean by 'Gaels'? Do you mean the Celtic tribes that lived in the Birtish Isles, because I think the Gaels were a tribe in themselves. I think that they lived around were Firth or Edinburgh is now (although I may be hideously and utterly wrong).

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By Gaels, I mean the people who came from Spain and conquered Ireland. Then, from Ulster settled Scotland, Man, Iceland, the Faeroes, etc. The persons responsible for, and descended from, "Q-Celtic" speaking language.

The Irish Celts came from Spain? I assume you mean in neolithic times.
Well, you seem to know more about this than me, so I'll just shut up.

Traitorfish said:

The Irish Celts came from Spain? I assume you mean in neolithic times.
Well, you seem to know more about this than me, so I'll just shut up.

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Gaels = People who speak a Gaelic language; according to their own early medieval legends, they came from Spain, but they almost certainly came from - perish the thought - Britain. .

calgacus said:

Gaels = People who speak a Gaelic language; according to their own early medieval legends, they came from Spain, but they almost certainly came from - perish the thought - Britain. .

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Certainly not. The native peoples of Britain spoke a Brythonic language, proof of this is the fact that the Gauls, the Welsh, the Cornish, Bretons (Briton colonists in France) and (possibly) the Picts speak/spoke Brythonic tongues.

The only knowledge of a Gaelic speaking people outside of Ireland and the Irish colonies comes from Celtiberians in Spain... unless this has changed recently, which is entirely possible I suppose.


While it was true that Irish raiding parties colonized Scotland and Wales (and were kicked out), that's usually the explaination for any ancient or dark age Gaelic inscriptions in Cambria.

So in conclusion, when I play Rome: Total War, for an Irish perspective I play the Iberians. (Which are in Spain, not the OTHER Iberians near Georgia and Armenia)

Sadistik said:

Certainly not. The native peoples of Britain spoke a Brythonic language, proof of this is the fact that the Gauls, the Welsh, the Cornish, Bretons (Briton colonists in France) and (possibly) the Picts speak/spoke Brythonic tongues.

The only knowledge of a Gaelic speaking people outside of Ireland and the Irish colonies comes from Celtiberians in Spain... unless this has changed recently, which is entirely possible I suppose.


While it was true that Irish raiding parties colonized Scotland and Wales (and were kicked out), that's usually the explaination for any ancient or dark age Gaelic inscriptions in Cambria.

So in conclusion, when I play Rome: Total War, for an Irish perspective I play the Iberians. (Which are in Spain, not the OTHER Iberians near Georgia and Armenia)

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Come on Brian Boruma, you don't seriously believe Goidelic speakers came from Spain? The only reason the early Gaels derive their origin from there is because that's the only way one can get from Egypt (like Moses and the Israelites) to Ireland. The sea lanes between Ireland and Spain a gigantic and treacherous, and besides, Spain celticness is debatable. (BTW, Roman and early medieval writers thought Ireland and Spain were close together, hence why it was easier to invent an origin there). It's totally not possible. Celts came to Ireland from the most likely routes, i.e. Galloway or Argyll. The P-Celtic consonant shift took place in Gaul and Britain, but not in Ireland, thus creating the Brythonic-Goidelic divide. Ks became Ps and V/Ws (shifting to GWs in later Welsh) became Fs. Otherwise the languages are similar, compare Scottish Fionn with Welsh Gwyn (white). Gaels came to Ireland from Britain I'm afraid, any other suggestion is more absurd than likely.

Then why were Celtiberians Q-Celtic?

Enough has been preserved to show that the Celtiberian language was Q-Celtic (like Goidelic), and not P-Celtic like Gaulish (Mallory 1989, p. 106). Since Brythonic is P-Celtic too, but as an Insular Celtic language more closely related to Goidelic than to Gaulish, it follows that the P/Q division is paraphyletic: The change from kw to p occurred in Brythonic and Gaulish at a time when they were already separate languages, rather than constituting a division that marked a separate branch in the "family tree" of the Celtic languages. A change from PIE kw (q) to p also occurred in some Italic languages: compare Oscan pis, pid ("who, what?") with Latin quis, quid. Celtiberian and Gaulish are usually grouped together as the Continental Celtic languages, but this grouping too is paraphyletic: no evidence suggests the two shared any common innovation separately from Insular Celtic.

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So, in essence, Celtiberians would be Goidelic, and Gauls would be Brythonic, but people chose to group them together as Continentals, with no actual reasoning behind it other than "Those other languages are from the British Isles!"

Sadistik said:

Then why were Celtiberians Q-Celtic?



So, in essence, Celtiberians would be Goidelic, and Gauls would be Brythonic, but people chose to group them together as Continentals, with no actual reasoning behind it other than "Those other languages are from the British Isles!"

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All Celts were Q-Celtic originally, Qs being a special feature of Indo-European. The theory at least is that certain Celts replaced Qs/Ks with Ps and these, by whatever means, became the Britons.

calgacus said:

All Celts were Q-Celtic originally, Qs being a special feature of Indo-European. The theory at least is that certain Celts replaced Qs/Ks with Ps and these, by whatever means, became the Britons.

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A strange notion. To think that the modern Irish language is a more pure form of Celtic than the ancient languages in Galatia...

Well, most of that was way over my head.
Either you two know a lot about celtic history, or are just making stuff up.

Sadistik said:

A strange notion. To think that the modern Irish language is a more pure form of Celtic than the ancient languages in Galatia...

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If you want to make a point, Sadistik, there are other ways. Modern Irish isn't more ancient than Galatian, it just didn't change it's Qs to Ps (I don't know if Galatian did, but if you wish to tell me the evidence, I'd be delighted). Neither did Latin, Germanic languages changed them to Whs/Ws . Compare Irish, Latin, Welsh and English words for most relative or interrogative pronouns. But anyways, if you wish to believe Gaels came from Spain, then be my guest. I don't particularly care.