Atlantis: Fact or Fiction?

Do you think Atlantis Existed?

  • Total voters
    98
Plotinus said:
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Quite apart from this, the theory only works if you only look at some religions. Mithraism, which appeared shortly after Christianity, used the bull as a sacred symbol, which would seem to go completely against the theory.
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Going off on a tangent here but, Mithraism didn't appear after Christianity. It was certainly at its most popular in the 2nd century AD however, its origins are far older. Plutarch mentions that the Cilician pirates defeated by Pompey followed the same rites of Mithras which were being followed in his day. This would put followers of the cult of Mithraism in western Europe in at least 67 BC.
 
Not sure about that, Asclepius... the textual remains of Mithraism are often unreliable (for example, it was often reported that Mithras was worshipped as a sun god, but the carvings in Mithraea appear to indicate that he was regarded as distinct from the sun). After all, imagine how distorted our picture of Christianity would be if we had only the writings of non-Christians! No Mithraist artefact exists from earlier than the beginning of the second century, and no known Mithraeum exists from earlier than the mid-second century. Since Mithraea are typically very well preserved (being underground) and since they were essential to Mithraist worship, it seems that Mithraism did not exist before this time. Of course, there were other cults of Mithras, who had a long pedigree as a Persian god, and so the roots of the religion were considerably older; but Mithraism proper, complete with the tauroctony (as mentioned before) and so on, appears to have emerged in imperial times.

Steph - I just mentioned the fact about the Zodiac since I think you did say that there are twelve signs. Still, I think the point stands that there's no reason to suppose that the use of these symbols had anything to do with precession, given that (a) their adoption does not seem to have coincided with the shift of the equinoxes (equinoces?), (b) their adoption can be explained by other, non-astrological factors, and (c) plenty of other symbols were also in use that clearly had nothing to do with the Zodiac, so there's no particular reason to think that these ones did.
 
Plotinus said:
Steph - I just mentioned the fact about the Zodiac since I think you did say that there are twelve signs. Still, I think the point stands that there's no reason to suppose that the use of these symbols had anything to do with precession, given that (a) their adoption does not seem to have coincided with the shift of the equinoxes (equinoces?), (b) their adoption can be explained by other, non-astrological factors, and (c) plenty of other symbols were also in use that clearly had nothing to do with the Zodiac, so there's no particular reason to think that these ones did.
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My goal here is not to say it's true. It's just to point to some interesting astronimical facts, that COULD be linked to some adaption of symbols.
Just to have people think about it and broaden there point of view. Some will agree, some will not. But they will discuss it, as we do, and that's the goal of such a forum, isn't it? And the one who will dismiss it we'll have been done after some thinking, and not simply they are not aware of it
 
Plotinus said:
Not sure about that, Asclepius... the textual remains of Mithraism are often unreliable (for example, it was often reported that Mithras was worshipped as a sun god, but the carvings in Mithraea appear to indicate that he was regarded as distinct from the sun). After all, imagine how distorted our picture of Christianity would be if we had only the writings of non-Christians! No Mithraist artefact exists from earlier than the beginning of the second century, and no known Mithraeum exists from earlier than the mid-second century. Since Mithraea are typically very well preserved (being underground) and since they were essential to Mithraist worship, it seems that Mithraism did not exist before this time. Of course, there were other cults of Mithras, who had a long pedigree as a Persian god, and so the roots of the religion were considerably older; but Mithraism proper, complete with the tauroctony (as mentioned before) and so on, appears to have emerged in imperial times.
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I'm quite sure you have studied this far more than I have cursorily read. You might find the quote from Plutarch interesting if not conclusive though, as it is mentioned in several books (e.g. the Oxford Classical Dictionary) as being the first source which dates Mithraism:

Plutarch.Pompey.24:5 said:
They also offered strange sacrifices of their own at Olympus, and celebrated there certain secret rites, among which those of Mithras continue to the present time, having been first instituted by them.
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This is taken from Plutarch's Parallel Lives (written around 110 AD) in the book on Pompey which discusses the Mithridatic War (88 - 85 BC) and its after effects. Here's the full text from chapter 24:

Plutarch.Pompey.24 said:
24 The power of the pirates had its seat in Cilicia at first, and at the outset it was venturesome and elusive; but it took on confidence and boldness during the Mithridatic war, because it lent itself to the king's service. Then, while the Romans were embroiled in civil wars at the gates of Rome, the sea was left unguarded, and gradually drew and enticed them on until they no longer attacked navigators only, but also laid waste islands and maritime cities. And presently men whose wealth gave them power, and those whose lineage was illustrious, and those who laid claim to superior intelligence, began to embark on piratical craft and share their enterprises, feeling that the occupation brought them a certain reputation and distinction. There were also fortified roadsteads and signal-stations for piratical craft in many places, and fleets put in here which were not merely furnished for their peculiar work with sturdy crews, skillful pilots, and light and speedy ships; nay, more annoying than the fear which they inspired was the odious extravagance of their equipment, with their gilded sails, and purple awnings, and silvered oars, as if they rioted in their iniquity and plumed themselves upon it. Their flutes and stringed instruments and drinking bouts along every coast, their seizures of persons in high command, and their ransomings of captured cities, were a disgrace to the Roman supremacy. For, you see, the ships of the pirates numbered more than a thousand, and the cities captured by them four hundred. Besides, they attacked and plundered places of refuge and sanctuaries hitherto inviolate, such as those of Claros, Didyma, and Samothrace; the temple of Chthonian Earth at Hermione; that of Asclepius in Epidaurus; those of Poseidon at the Isthmus, at Taenarum, and at Calauria; those of Apollo at Actium and Leucas; and those of Hera at Samos, at Argos, and at Lacinium. They also offered strange sacrifices of their own at Olympus, and celebrated there certain secret rites, among which those of Mithras continue to the present time, having been first instituted by them.
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Plutarch - Parallel Lives
 
They plundered your temple!

Interesting passage. Certainly I would think, on the face of it, that it doesn't offer a great deal of evidence on the continuity or otherwise of the rites of Mithras at the time described with those later on. Note that the idea that imperial-era Mithraism was basically an import from Persia, and therefore old, was popular a century ago but has now been abandoned by most scholars, who think instead that Mithraism as we know it actually developed in imperial times - I suppose rather as Wicca, in the twentieth century, emerged as people were inspired by pre-Christian paganism but had no historical links with it, and is actually a new and distinct religion.

For reference, here is a useful anthology of pretty much all references to Mithraism in ancient literature (a non-scholarly but, I think, very reliable site). And here is a good site describing the archaeological evidence.
 
Plotinus said:
They plundered your temple!
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:mad: Yes, I know. Kids nowadays have no respect!

Plotinus said:
Interesting passage. Certainly I would think, on the face of it, that it doesn't offer a great deal of evidence on the continuity or otherwise of the rites of Mithras at the time described with those later on. Note that the idea that imperial-era Mithraism was basically an import from Persia, and therefore old, was popular a century ago but has now been abandoned by most scholars, who think instead that Mithraism as we know it actually developed in imperial times - I suppose rather as Wicca, in the twentieth century, emerged as people were inspired by pre-Christian paganism but had no historical links with it, and is actually a new and distinct religion.

For reference, here is a useful anthology of pretty much all references to Mithraism in ancient literature (a non-scholarly but, I think, very reliable site). And here is a good site describing the archaeological evidence.
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I admit, one sentence is a little slim in the evidence department, but it certainly isn't a throwaway quote which can be completely ignored. Plutarch evidently saw enough parallels (!) between the cult that existed in his time and those historical events which he was recording. So I would say it is a very good indication that Mithraism, or at least something resembling Mithraism, was around at least 200 years before its "peak". I've always found the Christian bias and hatred towards Mithras to be quite interesting, especially some of the more colourful interpretations at the turn of the last century. Thanks for the links, I hope I can learn a little more. :)
 
Well, the Christians hardly had a monopoly on hatred towards other religions - it seems that in antiquity everyone hated those who thought differently from themselves. Just read some of the Platonists on Epicureanism, for example - or indeed Celsus on Christianity. Not like our own enlightened times, naturally...
 
Plotinus said:
Well, the Christians hardly had a monopoly on hatred towards other religions - it seems that in antiquity everyone hated those who thought differently from themselves.
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It's not nice to know we have evolved beyond that :mischief:
 
Plotinus said:
I must say I'm not remotely convinced by this, I'm afraid.

First, the pastoral sacrifices described in the Old Testament don't go back to 1400 BC! The Pentateuch is something like a thousand years later than that.

Second, the early Christians took the fish symbol from earlier pagan religions. It was a generally accepted "holy" symbol. It's not certain whether the fact that it was an acrostic for an affirmation about Christ was the reason they used it or a later justification after the fact. Besides which, the vernal equinox was hardly regarded as the start of the year in Roman times - that was closer to the winter solstice. I don't know about ancient Babylonians and Hebrews on that score.

Quite apart from this, the theory only works if you only look at some religions. Mithraism, which appeared shortly after Christianity, used the bull as a sacred symbol, which would seem to go completely against the theory.

Plus, of course, as the diagram makes plain, there are thirteen signs of the Zodiac, not twelve.
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Where do you get that the pentateuch is from only 500 BC? The Davidic poems can reliably be dated at close to 1000 BC. In fact there is much to support Davidic psalms to being written by the monarch of that name. Even if you accept that the Books of Moses are actually compilations and/or editings of older material, that does not place the date anywhere near that recent.

BTW, why is it a problem that early Christians used existing traditions, festival dates and so on? If nothing else it was protective cloloration during the persecution. If Isaac Newton stood on the shoulders of giants, then the early church stood on the history of Rome. That does not diminish the contribution.

J
 
The Pentateuch, at least as we have it, is usually dated to the period of the Babylonian exile. I'm not sure why you cite the Psalms, which have nothing to do with the Pentateuch, but in any case they are from all different periods and their dating is always disputed. Certainly those attributed to David do not necessarily go back to the tenth century BC, and many (if not most) are probably actually from the Maccabean period.

I don't think it's a problem at all that Christians should have used pre-existing images and practices. In fact I think that they did so much less than is commonly supposed nowadays.
 
I do think that there probably was some sort of civilazation that spread throghout the world and ended by some violent means, there are few cultures that dont have some kind of myth about some lost civilazation much more advanced all of a sudden vanishing in some catastrophic way. It just seems too universal a story. Plato's atlantis is probably just one out of many, many myths of that same premise. Dont ask me which civilazations had these myths exactly, I watched it on the history channel about a year ago on it, I believe the chinese had one though about people who lived on an island that were immortal and could fly and they got destroyed, who knows though, :)
 
while the question is interesting, and could be applicable for such cultures as the egyptians, babylonians, and the stone-henge builders, we'd need to see if astrology was an important component in said culture before we could look at that possibility, IMO. Its not too absurd- every single person on the planet who is able to has at least once looked to the sky and felt some sort of wonder or mystery at it, even if only the slightest feeling. But to center an entire religion around a formation of stars that can have a different meaning for every person, not say of different cultures as far away as southern spain and the western med sea and egypt and the fertile crescent is a whole different matter.

I'm more inclined to view that the bull was a symbol of fertility and masculine strength being the basis of its wide spread popularity, rather then a star formation that may have had an entierlly different meaning to ancient Tartessians. After all, what fragment sof thier language we have, IIRC, has not yet been deciphered.
 
Xen said:
while the question is interesting, and could be applicable for such cultures as the egyptians, babylonians, and the stone-henge builders, we'd need to see if astrology was an important component in said culture before we could look at that possibility, IMO. Its not too absurd- every single person on the planet who is able to has at least once looked to the sky and felt some sort of wonder or mystery at it, even if only the slightest feeling. But to center an entire religion around a formation of stars that can have a different meaning for every person, not say of different cultures as far away as southern spain and the western med sea and egypt and the fertile crescent is a whole different matter.
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It's not centering the whole religion around star conformation. I think we can know for relatively sure that ancient priests were also astronomers. Look at the orientation of Egyptian pyramids toward astronomical phenomenom for instance. And the ancient priests are the center of religion.
I don't say an entire religion is based on stars, but that the stars, which are "naturally" linked to Gods (in several mythologies, the world is created by the association of the God of the Sky with the God of the Earth, like for the Greeks), could be interpreted by priests as religious symbol, and incorporate in their belief.
So Bull = vernal point at the time + symbol of strength --> Bull is important.
It can also work both ways. As the Bull was important as a symbol of strength, it could have been "abritrarily" affected to the first constellation of the astronimical year (because franky, when you look at constellations, you don't really see the image of a bull, do you?). Someone at a time did the association.
However, the coincidence I find interesting is an evolution of symbols that "roughly" correspond to a change of constellation for the vernal point.
 
Steph said:
It's not centering the whole religion around star conformation. I think we can know for relatively sure that ancient priests were also astronomers. Look at the orientation of Egyptian pyramids toward astronomical phenomenom for instance. And the ancient priests are the center of religion.
I don't say an entire religion is based on stars, but that the stars, which are "naturally" linked to Gods (in several mythologies, the world is created by the association of the God of the Sky with the God of the Earth, like for the Greeks), could be interpreted by priests as religious symbol, and incorporate in their belief.
So Bull = vernal point at the time + symbol of strength --> Bull is important.
It can also work both ways. As the Bull was important as a symbol of strength, it could have been "abritrarily" affected to the first constellation of the astronimical year (because franky, when you look at constellations, you don't really see the image of a bull, do you?). Someone at a time did the association.
However, the coincidence I find interesting is an evolution of symbols that "roughly" correspond to a change of constellation for the vernal point.
Click to expand...


the main problem in the theory is that we dont knwo any specifics of Tartessian/Atlantean culture- we do knwo that the bull was a widelly regarded symbol of importance, but ironically, its some of the peoples who didnt engage in astronomy who made it thier most important symbol (Early Italian Tribes, Spanish Tribes, and the Minoans)- and we also dont know what the latter two actually saw the constellations as.

While your theory is a good one- certinally merits investigation IMO, we cannot apply it to Tartessos because we dont have enough supporting information in terms of Tartessian culture to make real links beyond rational reasoning. And while rational reasoning can often lead to good, if not great discoveries or ideas, we still need that firm evidence out fo the ground to back it up :)

so far, I'm not inclined to look at the "astrology theory" as being the reason behind the Bulls importance- at least not in terms of the Tartessians, and Minoans, who to my knowledge did not engage in astronomy. Rather the simplest explination, that of the bull just being a fertility/strength symbol seems to be the best fit- but I'm always open to new evidence popping up :D
 
Xen said:
the main problem in the theory is that we dont knwo any specifics of Tartessian/Atlantean culture- we do knwo that the bull was a widelly regarded symbol of importance, but ironically, its some of the peoples who didnt engage in astronomy who made it thier most important symbol (Early Italian Tribes, Spanish Tribes, and the Minoans)- and we also dont know what the latter two actually saw the constellations as.
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I think it was in Babylon / Egypt, and it could have spread from there.
 
the main problem in the theory is that we dont knwo any specifics of Tartessian/Atlantean culture- we do knwo that the bull was a widelly regarded symbol of importance, but ironically, its some of the peoples who didnt engage in astronomy who made it thier most important symbol (Early Italian Tribes, Spanish Tribes, and the Minoans)- and we also dont know what the latter two actually saw the constellations as.
Click to expand...
In fact i have seen some Tartessian relics myself (from the Carambolo treasure) made of solid gold and there were many bulls there. OTOH You have the Geryon myth, dont if you know it: Heracles goes to Erytheia and kills Geryon, the three headed giant, to thieve his bulls. Surely Erytheia refers to Cadiz island as it was called before phoeninicians founded the city of Cadiz (Gadir) about 1100 b.c. (Cadiz is in the same zone as Tartessos civ was)

Precisely to mess a bit more all this question i have just found another theory linking Geryion and Erytheia with Atlantis.

Stavros PAPAMARINOPOULOS, University of Patras, Greece
Niki DRIVALIARI, University of the Aegean, Greece
Chara COSEYAN, University of Patras, Greece

"Erytheia as 'Atlantis'. A case prior to Plato"

Hesiod (Ησίοδος) describing the legendary island of Erytheia (Ερυθεία) surrounded by the Ocean in which an airborn Chryssaor (Χρυσάωρ), whose name means golden sword, the son of Poseidon (Ποσειδών) and Medousa (Μέδουσα) came in erotic contact with the daughter of the οcean Kalerroe (Καλλιρρόη) and produced the three head Gerion (Γηριόνης). Hesiod involves the hero of the Achaeans Heracles (Ηρακλής) who reaches Erytheia by sea with the assistance of the Sun�s golden depas (δέπας). Although we do not know the exact function and meaning of the golden depas, it assisted Heracles to find Erytheia in the sea. On Erytheia, in spite of the assistance, given to Gerion by the �dog � Orthos (Όρθος) and the shepherd Eurytion (Ευριτίων), Heracles managed to get the bulls, and killed Gerion in conflict. On the place of his tomb, as later ancient Greek writers mention, a tree grew and due to sorrow from Gerion�s death produced red tears. This is a typical myth which requires stepwise analysis. In its center some true facts exist . The latter are the following. The red island, since Erytheia means red, surrounded by the ocean. The contact of the Achaeans by sea. The occupants of the island and the environment of bulls and sheep. In the periphery of the myth there are inventions because the non-literal visitors Achaeans could not comprehend, this new for them, exotic environment. Poseidon who is directly involved in an erotic contact with Cleito in Plato�s � Atlantis � now in Hesiod, � becomes � his son Chryssaor who does exactly the same act. He has a similar contact with Kalerroe on an island in the ocean. In Plato�s version Poseidon produces three concentric circles after the �meeting � with the woman. In Hesiod Chryssaor produces the three � heads � Gyrion after the meeting with the woman. We set, a new working hypothesis. It is known that Gyrion means linguistically weeping.. At the present time we are not in a position to demonstrate if the three heads were one within the others, with other words concentrically, or individually and separately placed. However, we point the presence of bulls at Erytheia, a typical fertility symbol and the erotic act of Chryssaor. We note that the symbol of the three concentric circles together with the bulls and a volcanic crater appear as a fertility symbol in Tsatal Hujuk in Turkey even from Neolithic times. With other words the same three concentric circles as in Plato�s case and the erotic act of Poseidon. The case of Chryssaor�s performance does not mean that people were present during its activity. It means that the prehistoric non-literal people interpreted much later the unusual site of an island with a preexisting crater when they visited the particular environment. The Heracles / Gyrion battle is an interpretive myth, illustrating with non-literal description, an island somewhere with a crater. There is a partial parallel. It is the battle between Poseidon / Polyvotis. It leads us to the description of another island with an interpretive myth of non-literal people. The island of Nisyros with the known volcanic crater in the Aegean. The bulls appear, as in Erytheia, hidden in the name of Polyvotis, the warrior son of the earth, whose name means many bulls. It seems, we have almost equalization between the two myths presented by Hesiod and Plato respectively. The orthos � dog �, whose name means upright, is the impassable of the site and therefore the structure�s protector with other words Gerion�s. It is an exact parallel to the impassable of the structure which Poseidon produced in Plato�s Atlantis. In Hesiod�s case, except of the impassable, the threatening voice of the orthos �dog � is added. We interpret this as the threatening noise of the seismic activity of the site. The � red tears � of the tree which grew in the position of Gerion�s tomb has particular interest since it leads us where � Atlantis � was located. Such trees exist out side of the Mediterranean and produce red resin. The red resin is called Dragon�s blood. The names of these plants are Calamus draco, Draconis resina and Sanquis draconis. Such a plants are distributed today in Africa, Indonesia, India, Malaysia (Daemonorops), Vietnam, Cambodia (Dracaena). The folk names in various counties are : Blood, Blume, Calamus Draco, Draconis, Resina, Sanguis Draconis, Dragon�s Blood Palm. It was known to ancient Greeks, Romans, and Arabs to have medicinal properties. The ancient Greek writer Discouridis described it. Mariners of the 15th century A.D. found it in the Canaries. The exotic tree Dracena Draco is a native to the Canary islands, Madeira, the Cape Verde Islands, and the Atlas mountains in Marocco. The natives of these regions harvested the resin for mummification procedures. In spite of the fact that Hesiod does not locate his Erytheia in a way to understand its position and inspite of the fact that other authors such as Stesichoros and Pindar locate it close to the peninsula of Cadiz and Guadalkivir river in Andalusia. We propose that Hesiod�s Erytheia with the previously assumed by us characteristics, as we interpret his text, does not fit with the present day island existing close to Cadiz. If Erytheia is indeed � Atlantis � then we should look for it in the places in which the tree with red resin existed in 1200 yr B.C. as the present analysis leads us. � Atlantis � was lost due to a very strong earthquake and a consequent giant landslide. It was the last tragic spasm of the seismic storm which acted between 1225 and 1175 yr B.C. along the main contact of the lithospheric plates of Africa and Eurasia and along the peripheral faults in East and West Mediterranean and destroyed partly prehistoric Troy, Tiryns and Athens and many other prehistoric cities and totally Hesiod�s 7th century B.C. Erytheia, or Hellanicus 5th century B.C. Atlantias, or Plato�s 4th century B.C. Atlantis.
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http://milos.conferences.gr/index.php?id=2851
However that this guy doesnt know is that actually there are some Draco trees of unknow age in Cadiz... :D
 
Thorgalaeg said:
In fact i have seen some Tartessian relics myself (from the Carambolo treasure) made of solid gold and there were many bulls there. OTOH You have the Geryon myth, dont if you know it: Heracles goes to Erytheia and kills Geryon, the three headed giant, to thieve his bulls. Surely Erytheia refers to Cadiz island as it was called before phoeninicians founded the city of Cadiz (Gadir) about 1100 b.c. (Cadiz is in the same zone as Tartessos civ was)
Click to expand...

well, that the bull is a major Tartessian symbol is unquestioned- the problem in regards to steph is not the use of the Bull as symbol, but if the Bull has any association with astrology. Somthign that their is no supporting evidence for, as far as I know.
 
I just noticed the thread. On the subject of Mithraism in Rome, I note that Marguerite Yourcenar's Memoirs of Hadrian, which I am given to understand is about as studiously faithful a portrayal of its subject as a work of fiction can possibly be, has Hadrian adopting Mithraism (with the bull rites) while commanding soldiers on the northeastern boundary of the Empire. That would have been around A.D. 100, and the book portrays Mithraism as already being very popular among the troops, despite being a novel faith. That would suggest that it infiltrated the Empire at roughly the same time as Christianity, perhaps a bit later.
 
it suggests just the opposite, actually- that it had "infiltrated" the Roman state earlier then christianity, as it had become accepted in popular culture much sooner then christianity had, and by the upper classes of Roman society.
 
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