Grumpy Old Men AWP Hub

Sorry! I should have posted a got-it on the 20th but didn't know I was up. Must have missed the post or something, but I don't know how that got past me. And even though I don't have an excuse for the 20, I do for the 21st I lost power for half the day and internet connection for a while due to severe windstorms. A tree actually fell down in my backyard. Anyways, sorry again.

Edit: I agree with T McC's warplan. Sounds promising to me. Hopefully all will work out well.

knupp, since grs takes the game only on Friday, why don't you play your turns now...

Sounds good to me, as long as it is ok with everyone else. I will play now.

I will play now.

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go ahead

It's hard to believe this game doesn't have more lurkers.

(Mr. T Voice)"I pity the fool who is missing out on this action."(/Mr. T)

It's hard to believe this game doesn't have more lurkers.

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Maybe because I left our handy's name in the thread title. But I agree, this is one of the first AW games with a true AW game feeling. It's insane at times and we really have to play up to our best here to survive. It's great fun really. Of course, we do have a good team with nice discussions going on as well.

About the HG, it's fine with me not to build it. Do not forget that we have the pentagon as a wonder later on as well.

(0) Frankfurt and Stuttgart are using engineers for 2 shields when both cities could be working plain forests worth 1food and 2 shields. I switch this and continue to look around. I opt not to use the catapult for collateral damage on the outside stack. We should win, due to our defensive bonus, fortified bonuses, plus we have a super X-bow that kills anything.

IBT: Beat 8 units with no losses. Three spearmen from the army do not attack.

(1) I found a barb city in the west.



IBT: Kill 5 units with no losses.

(2) I attack out of Cologne killing two horsearchers.
I whip the cat at Cologne.

IBT: Kill 2 swordmen with no losses.

(3) Hamburg finishes training a maceman and starts a war elephant. Cologne finishes the whipped Cat and starts on a courthouse.

IBT: Kill an Incan galley

(4) Stuttgart builds a courthouse and starts on a barracks. Berlin finishes training a maceman and starts on Heroic Epic. I beat a horsearcher and chariot outside of Cologne with no losses.

IBT: We destroy an Incan galley.

(5) Essen builds a library and starts building a phant. Kill a spearmen.

IBT: Kill a horsearcher while another one withdraws. No losses for the German empire.

(6) Only worker movements.

IBT: We beat 1 swordman, 1 spearman, 1 Horsearcher, and 1 keshik with no losses.

(7) Engineering is discovered and compass is started which will be researched in 5 turns. Bremen builds a chopped worker and starts on a granary as that is the only building that won't take over 80 turns. I kill a swordman, horsearcher, axeman, and a war chariot.

Whip a courthouse at Cologne. The barb city is gone, which is no suprise with all the units that are continuosly flowing over here.



IBT: Our extremely great X-Bow beats 3 warchariots, and another withdraws. No losses for us.

(8) Hamburg builds a phant and starts on another one. Cologne builds a courthouse and starts building a castle which is due in 20 turns (we may want to whip this). Dortmund builds a mace and starts a courthouse. Stuttgart builds a barracks and starts constructing a library.

Kill a horsearcher, keshik, cat, and



Oh well, I killed that too with a horsearcher, and believe it or not we weren't even scratched!!!

(9) Berlin completes Heroic Epic and I put it immediately to work building a phant which will be built in only 2 turns. Munich finishes the Great Library.



I starts building an aqueduct because it is at its limit. After that it should build National Epic because of the wonders it has.
Kill an axe, swordman, and a spear.

IBT: Kill a Keshik and Roman galley with no losses.

(10) Frankfurt builds a confucian missionary and starts building a corthouse. Hamburg builds a phant and starts on a courthouse and Essen starts building one too. Our economy is poor at 60% with -7gpt. It needs to improve ASAP. That confucian missionary has nothing to do, so I suggest using him on either the new city T McC suggested, or a captured Incan one.

Overview:




I didn't even think about building that new city, but I think we should hold off anyways until our economy is more stable.

Both a sea and land attack will strike next turn.



Hatty has founded a new city in the west. I think we should try capturing this city. If it is on a hill it will have great defense. Not to mention, once we capture Vitcos the AI's will try to attack both there and Munich. If we had this city then all the AI focus would go there.



Lastly, I think Berlin should build Chichen Itza. It would be completed in 19 turns plus we can chop forests to speed it along.



Our wonder city up north would take 30 turns to build it, and has no forests to chop. Plus it is busy building other things. Berlin could build Chichen Itza after the current phant it is building. We can't neccesarily afford any more units, as unit costs are the reason we are so crappy economy wise, so what else can Berlin build? I also think the wonder city up north should build the Hanging Gardens after it builds it's aqueduct and national epic. It is extremely far away from the front so building troops there doesn't make sense, so let's keep it building wonders.

Finally, I think we have enough units to launch an attack on Vitcos. We have more than enough in Munich, not including the recent phants that just got built. All we need is some more cats, and our plan should be easy to pursue, however I think we should ship our troops over there, as there are always other troops blocking our way on land.

This game really is great fun, and I'm really enjoying all the fun. It's the lurkers who are missing out

Oh crap, forgot the save in my last post.

with no losses our economy will surely choke in unit cost sooner or later, luckily we get harbors in 2 turns and can then build them everywhere.
I agree on HG if Munich has little else to build, even for denial purposes it's a good wonder.

I also think we should ship over units, however I would try and avoid to take Vitcos that early, maybe we can drop units in their hinterland and then raze some cites to weaken them so we can hold Vitcis actually.

lurker comment:

You're not the only lurker here. Great read, had to start one of my own. My choke city whipped Globe Theatre with two food bonuses.

The resulting army of the dead turned the tide...

had a look at the save, we do have some units inside Cologne, that are not promoted, I would do so for higher survival rate. Also, we do have maces and axes there that will be hardly used for defense, we can attack with good odds to promote those.

I would immediately send out a strike force to land in Inca land in the east. We can send over units with our 4 galleys there. Each of the galley needs to only move 1 tile to unload the units onto the Inca hinterland. Thus, we never even need to expose our choke block.

Some maces, phants, cats and pikes should do the job of razing hell there and gaining us much money.

My choke city whipped Globe Theatre

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Now, that sounds like a brilliant idea, Bez. This would enable the Cologne to whip anything it likes with that much food it has. NO more unhappiness ever. Smart move

Invasion of Inca land, rat's suggested strategy



Once we raze some core cities, we can then take over the whole 'hub' holding onto the choke as well.

First off: Excellent job of referring to yourself in the 3rd person. Troy approves.

My only concern with starting in the Incan core is that we'll be pretty much restricted to raze-only, or else the other AI will just send units through the Incan arm of the hub to attack any city we keep. Only razing the Incan cities hurts the Incas, but doesn't do us much good except for a little short-term cash. I think we will want to keep some of the Incan cities, particularly one that would give us a port in their core and their capital/Holy City if they've built a Shrine. It will also be much easier to keep the usurpers off of our land (that the Incans are merely keeping warm) if we have a city or two in place.

So I'm still of the opinion that we want to capture a 2nd choke city from the Incans. That would give us a definite spot to defend and make it much easier to attack the Incans alone in their territory. It will be much easier to keep cities in the Incan core if we only have to defend against the Incans.

Something else to consider: Maybe it would be a good idea to move the top defenders out of Cologne when small enemy stacks threaten the city. There should be a couple of very heavily-promoted units (a Mace and a X-bow) that essentially defend against every attack, but I think it is in our best interest to spread the XP and promotions out, particularly if we intend to settle/capture a 2nd choke. The stack threatening the city on this IT is too big to try this strategy, but if we're only facing 3-4 units we should have great odds even without the top defenders.

I think we got until tomorrow that grs is taking his turns. Until then maybe we can come to an agreement.

1. We take Vitcos, reinforce it and then take out the Inca core at a reasonable pace to allow our economy to stay afloat.

2. We land in the north and raze some cities and weaken Inca before taking Vitcos.


I tend to go for 2, maybe we leave the core intact for us to take it later on. Razing and pillaging can give us a lot of cash and allow research at 70-80% science easily. One issue in both cases will be WW, that will rise certainly. But, I am also ok with option 1, since I really don't know how the AI will react to 2 frontline cities.

Another issue is research path. I'd like us to get to the free tech steel later on, but we might want to go for music first to battle WW and to get the Globe theatre in Cologne. I really fancy that strategy, a whopping whipping town without any unhappiness.

ThERat said:

It's insane at times and we really have to play up to our best here to survive. It's great fun really.

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I'm tempted to immortalize that in my forum signature.

If I didn't need the limited space there for providing RB news and links, I think I would.


- Sirian

"This would enable the Cologne to whip anything it likes with that much food it has."

Then came the draft...

ThERat said:

"This would enable the Cologne to whip anything it likes with that much food it has."

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Bezhukov said:

Then came the draft...

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Oh wow....

I started a game with the same settings, great fun.

Be careful when you try to expand, least the AI overwhelm your choke. I'm slogging through monster SoDs almost every turn, and look to have no chance of expanding until I get Granadiers. On the plus side, I have a huge GDP and tech lead. WW is crippling for the AIs but nonexistent for me. It looks like I can turtle in and get a space win without much trouble. Naval supremacy looks to be impossible in the long run, the pure number of AIs will overwhelm you, looks like subs + planes + port based navy is needed to prevent landings.

The fact that the AI refuses to attack the units fortified in the forest part of the choke seems like a major flaw.

I'll go along with Rat's option 2 as well. Having peeked at the save, it doesn't look like we're going to get much of a break from the AI stacks. Trying to defend two hard targets likely would tie up all of our troops and we wouldn't be making much headway vs. the Incans anyway.

But I do think we need to consider what we want to do about pillaging the Incan lands. Certainly we want to cut all the resources, but I'm not sure it is in our best interest to pillage Villages/Towns. Mines and Irrigation we can replace with a few worker turns. Villages and Towns require a lot of time to re-grow, and I'm expecting we'll own those tiles sooner rather than later and would like the tiles to be producing multiple trade/turn from the 1st turn we own them. Burning cities may be enough of a blow to Huyana's economy that we don't need to pillage the commerce tiles.

I'm not worried about our economy. Shuffling some tiles to put cities on something other than max shields puts us in the black at 60% science without much pain in production, and we still have a few Courts and Markets to build. Not sure that Harbors are going to do that much for us, it depends on the way the game treats fractions. 150% of some number that has been truncated to 1 will still be 1, but maybe more decimal places are being considered and each Harbor will be worth 2-3 trade. I also don't know whether Harbors on both ends of a trade route will necessarily double the value of the trade route. It should, but ...

If the nearest Incan city is where I think it is, we can move one of the Galleys S or SE to check the garrison and then adjust troop builds accordingly. We also need a couple of Pikes for Cologne. Our Crossbows and Longbows are good defenders vs. Horse Archers, but their primary advantage is negated due to HAs being immune to first strikes. That means our Bows take more damage than necessary and become more vulnerable to Melee units. Berlin may be able to pop 2 Pikes in 3 turns, or we can try to shut down research for a turn or two to upgrade the Spears in the city. Either way the Pikes should promote quickly since the best offensive units the non-Roman AI have are Horse Archers.