fe3333au
Deity
This is where the term 6 records concerning KISS live ...
KISS Files - Term 6
- Thread starter fe3333au
- Start date
fe3333au
Deity
Doom and Gloom ... The Dogs of War are Howling
fe3333au: hey Whomp
bawhomp: hey
bawhomp: i'm talking to harriet ... another round of discussions <SG Hariot01>
Need to Talk
fe3333au: Oh ... I'd like a quick chat KISS MIA ... regarding our last letter
bawhomp: ok
fe3333au: so you obviously got it ... and we have not seen any withdrawal of Grider
bawhomp: we got it
fe3333au: are we to assume that that is an answer?
bawhomp: we don't feel we've been satisfied by the way it's been handled
fe3333au: fair enough ... and unfortunately nor do we ... so it seems that things are going to spiral into a scenario where neither of us, and indeed Nuts benefit
The Answer
bawhomp: could be ... unfortunate
fe3333au: oh well in the words of Doris Day kay sera or how ever it is spelt
< Plumber finally came back ... installing new (non-leaking) Hot Water Cylinder >
bawhomp: can i ask you something?
fe3333au: sure
bawhomp: why would should we make peace? What's the upside?
fe3333au: Hmmm ... well the upside is that in war you will also hurt ... sorry that came out wrong ... but no one wins in war
bawhomp: we can switch to monarchy
fe3333au: sure ... but you will still be concentrating energy into war ... and in the interim D-Nuts leap ahead
bawhomp: we are already behind so what's the difference?
< Tried to Answer ... Went Blank >
fe3333au: good question ... only KISS can answer that
bawhomp: what's our upside in that deal?
bawhomp: zero
fe3333au: not necessarily ... who knows what the future holds
bawhomp: i don't like what i see ... you made your bed
fe3333au: All I am saying we of course don't want war ... and are willing to listen to any ideas to avert war
bawhomp: you have nothing for us it seems ... we have no upside and we can drag you down
fe3333au: sure ... I guess dark days are almost upon us
Not sure I handled it as well as I could due to distractions ... but I get the feeling nothing could have been said anyway.
So Don your Armour Boys ... It be War !!!
General_W
Councilor & Merlot Noble
wow - how very sad.
Let's eat them for lunch!!
Cry Havoc!
Let's eat them for lunch!!
Cry Havoc!
The upside is simple - if we fight, KISS has zero chance of winning the game. They may have a small chance of winning the war eventually, but there absolutely no way they will win quickly enough to keep Dnuts from winning the game.
If there is peace, why couldn't they catch up? Their tech costs are 70% of ours. We could conceivably help them catch up, but there have been no real discussions. All they've done is demand techs we can't give them. Now their attitude is "we don't think we can win, so we will try to make sure MIA doesn't either
."Well screw 'em. We'll battle them for second place if that's what they want. The critical question now is when can war start? Can we attack on our 104? Can they attack on their 104? Or is 105 the first turn that war can happen?
KISS sent turn 94 to Dnuts 1/31/06 10:00 PM my time. KISS sent us the letter cancelling peace 1/31/06 10:45 PM. Their note said:
I believe our 10 turns of peace are 95-104. That means no declaration of war and no units in the other's territory until our turn 105, but I would hate to be wrong about that.
Can we consider one final peace offer?
I don't know what we can give now, but we can certainly make promises for the future.
I doubt they'd accept it, but at this point we've got nothing to lose.
As for the timing of an attack, I'd say we should position units on our 104 to be visible to KISS threatening Anonymous Dyes. Then, if KISS attacks us on their 104, we legitimately cry foul, based on the above turn timing and the game administrators' ruling.
thoughts?
I don't know what we can give now, but we can certainly make promises for the future.
I doubt they'd accept it, but at this point we've got nothing to lose.
As for the timing of an attack, I'd say we should position units on our 104 to be visible to KISS threatening Anonymous Dyes. Then, if KISS attacks us on their 104, we legitimately cry foul, based on the above turn timing and the game administrators' ruling.
thoughts?
fe3333au
Deity
We have exhausted peace ... sent letters ... everything we have tried has hit a wall.
Basically they feel wronged, and no matter what we do or have done will alter that fact.
Unfortunately war is the only outcome.
I suggest that we find out from the admins if under their ruling we can attack on turn 104 or 105, either way it is our option to take the first strike.
Basically they feel wronged, and no matter what we do or have done will alter that fact.
Unfortunately war is the only outcome.
I suggest that we find out from the admins if under their ruling we can attack on turn 104 or 105, either way it is our option to take the first strike.
I don’t think it is an admin issue. The admin ruling regarding the illegal map says neither team can declare until 104, so declaring on 104 is “legal”. The question is again the terms of our treaty which is up to us and KISS. Understand that “crying foul” does nothing if they attack on 104 – we can say they played dishonorably and hurt their pride, but there is nothing illegal about breaking a treaty, and it would deserve no punishment.
I don’t think we should move units in sight and tip our hand. If we think it means 105, then we should stick to 105. If they attack on 104, then they broke their word – it doesn’t amount to a hill of ivory in the actual game, but if we are playing honorably, then let’s stick to our interpretation of the treaty.
I don’t think we should move units in sight and tip our hand. If we think it means 105, then we should stick to 105. If they attack on 104, then they broke their word – it doesn’t amount to a hill of ivory in the actual game, but if we are playing honorably, then let’s stick to our interpretation of the treaty.
gbno1fan
Emperor
It seems that the biggest reason for peace is that without it, we both are guaranteed no better than 2nd place. Likely, Dnuts would end up 1st, we'd be 2nd, KISS 3rd, TNT 4th in the end. If we have peace, it would be either us or Dnuts 1st, KISS 2nd, either us or Dnuts 3rd, and TNT 4th. The question is, do they want 2nd or 3rd place?
But we can't really tell them all that because they may not be ready to admit that the most they can hope for is 2nd place.
What we can tell them is that their chances for doing well throughout the rest of the game rest on the chances of peace. If they throw peace out the window, they're throwing the game out too.
But we can't really tell them all that because they may not be ready to admit that the most they can hope for is 2nd place.
What we can tell them is that their chances for doing well throughout the rest of the game rest on the chances of peace. If they throw peace out the window, they're throwing the game out too.
General_W
Councilor & Merlot Noble
Here's my start on a response – I'm sure it's way too hostile… but hopefully it's an okay starting place.
Ok – hack and slash. You won't hurt my feelings. I'm pretty much just rambling there.
I'll take a stab at putting a few things down:
The upside is simple - if we fight, KISS has zero chance of winning the game. They may have a small chance of winning the war eventually, but there's absolutely no way they will win quickly enough to keep Dnuts from winning the game.
We could conceivably help them catch up, but there have been no real discussions. All they've done is demand techs we can't give them.
If we offer gold, I'm not sure how that benefits them. I am certainly open to offering gpt. But how is that different from extortion? "We'll pay you 5gpt if you don't attack us." How does that build up trust and peace?
We can offer Chivalry, free of charge. Consider that a MA tech. There's no guarantee that they won't whack us with Knights, but maybe that could be a condition of the trade: We'll give you Chivalry, but niether KISS nor MIA may use Knights against the other... wierd.
Another way to look at it: Turn: 102 - VPs: 566 KISS, 550 MIA, 419 TNT, 405 DNuts
KISS and MIA are only ahead because of the war that TNT started against DNUTS. If KISS and MIA have a war, DNUTs and TNT will catch up in VPs. This essentially levels the playing field. Right now, both of us have a chance at winning. It KISS and MIA fight, DNUTs will roll over all of us. If we fight, neither of us have a chance.
The upside is simple - if we fight, KISS has zero chance of winning the game. They may have a small chance of winning the war eventually, but there's absolutely no way they will win quickly enough to keep Dnuts from winning the game.
We could conceivably help them catch up, but there have been no real discussions. All they've done is demand techs we can't give them.
If we offer gold, I'm not sure how that benefits them. I am certainly open to offering gpt. But how is that different from extortion? "We'll pay you 5gpt if you don't attack us." How does that build up trust and peace?
We can offer Chivalry, free of charge. Consider that a MA tech. There's no guarantee that they won't whack us with Knights, but maybe that could be a condition of the trade: We'll give you Chivalry, but niether KISS nor MIA may use Knights against the other... wierd.
Another way to look at it: Turn: 102 - VPs: 566 KISS, 550 MIA, 419 TNT, 405 DNuts
KISS and MIA are only ahead because of the war that TNT started against DNUTS. If KISS and MIA have a war, DNUTs and TNT will catch up in VPs. This essentially levels the playing field. Right now, both of us have a chance at winning. It KISS and MIA fight, DNUTs will roll over all of us. If we fight, neither of us have a chance.
Wow, General_W, that is hostile. Here is my attempt that I was working on before I read yours:
I guess the question is really are we willing to give in to extortion? It stinks, but what gives us the best chance of winning this game?
I guess the question is really are we willing to give in to extortion? It stinks, but what gives us the best chance of winning this game?
Posted by Tubby in the turntracker:
My guess is they've gone into anarchy to emerge in a Monarchy on 105.
My guess is they've gone into anarchy to emerge in a Monarchy on 105.
I would doubt it - I think they would wait until they actually had problems with war weariness or unit costs (their unit costs should be substantially less than ours now, and we can still tolerate ours). I think he is just referring to TNT and Dnuts both being in anarchy.
So far I really like Chamnix's letter best. But I also really like General_W's closing paragraph.
As to the nuts and bolts of what to offer, I think we should give them a free tech (Chivalry?), the only attached strings being a lasting peace of 50? turns. Or should we strive to stay at peace throughout the MA? I'm open to the idea of gpt, but that would feel a lot like paying for peace. I would only really support gpt if it was for a limited time, but the peace secure well beyond that. Maybe 400 gold, over 40 turns, the peace guaranteed for 100?
One of the big beefs they had with KISSMIA is that while they were home, slaving over a hot stove all day preparing Republic, we were off galavanting and carousing, making huge profits, as they saw it... They were envious of the freedoms we had. That's one of the reasons they came to hate us. They mentioned that one of the reasons the 7 Tiers was being put to bed was they wanted more freedom of action on the international stage. Can't argue that! We made out like Texans!
Is there some way we can still orchestrate a secure peace between us, and have a profitable relationship, while still allowing KISS to be an independent actor on the trading stage? Maybe it's too much too soon to revive KISSMIA, but we could at least offer them first dibs and a heavy discount in the race to Gunpowder.
The only thing we'd need in return is a formal peace treaty similar to the one that existed in the race to Republic.
As to the nuts and bolts of what to offer, I think we should give them a free tech (Chivalry?), the only attached strings being a lasting peace of 50? turns. Or should we strive to stay at peace throughout the MA? I'm open to the idea of gpt, but that would feel a lot like paying for peace. I would only really support gpt if it was for a limited time, but the peace secure well beyond that. Maybe 400 gold, over 40 turns, the peace guaranteed for 100?
One of the big beefs they had with KISSMIA is that while they were home, slaving over a hot stove all day preparing Republic, we were off galavanting and carousing, making huge profits, as they saw it... They were envious of the freedoms we had. That's one of the reasons they came to hate us. They mentioned that one of the reasons the 7 Tiers was being put to bed was they wanted more freedom of action on the international stage. Can't argue that! We made out like Texans!
Is there some way we can still orchestrate a secure peace between us, and have a profitable relationship, while still allowing KISS to be an independent actor on the trading stage? Maybe it's too much too soon to revive KISSMIA, but we could at least offer them first dibs and a heavy discount in the race to Gunpowder.
The only thing we'd need in return is a formal peace treaty similar to the one that existed in the race to Republic.
But Chamnix, Whomp's letter specifically asked us to come back with an offer. I don't think it would be wise to send back a letter that has no offer from us at all.
Let's at least offer them a free tech, with a peace guarantee like we used to have... Peace until Gunpowder, for example.
Let's at least offer them a free tech, with a peace guarantee like we used to have... Peace until Gunpowder, for example.
General_W
Councilor & Merlot Noble
Ok, I certainly agree the Chamnix's letter is much more level-headed and much more likely to be well received.
However, I have a couple objections.
1) Emotional: Why, after being constantly dumped on, do we need to continue to respond in humility? I resent that we're just feeding the KISS stereotype of MIA being dishonorable and now we're trying to buy them off to avoid war for our sins. Why can't we say "Bring it on! you paper-tiger cry babies!"
(ok, I realize that none of that is valid.)
2) Practical: I really do believe we can do well in this war. Yes it lets Dnuts back into the game… but why not? They've played very well, especially considering that they've had to deal with TNT. KISS is now playing stupidly, and it's highly unfortunate for us. But we can teach them a lesson like Dnuts did to TNT. We'll fall behind, yes – but we're starting from a position that's ahead (Dnuts are still in the Ancient era!) – when the dust settles, we're likely to not be nearly as far behind Dnuts as they were at the end of their war with TNT. With our crack diplomacy team, it's quite likely we can leverage our current tech lead to at least stay at parity with Dnuts. Maybe we'll even secure more land on our continent?
It's not the best situation – but it's not a doomsday scenario either.
Which is why I'm so opposed to helping KISS with tech. They are 2 very dangerous things… 1) Unstable, and 2) Right next door to us. (TNT might be unstable, but at least they are far away.)
Remind me again why we want a level playing field to compete with KISS?!?
Personally, I'd rather beat them.
We've worked very hard to catch up with them, and we're almost there!
Now – if KISS was being reasonable, and refraining from calling us cheaters – then sure… I'm ok with losing to them if they out-play us.
But good Lord, let's not give them a bunch of tech and help them beat us just because they've called us dirty names!!!
Don't get me wrong – I'm happy to avoid a war – but not at any price.
I can't see giving them more than 5gpt for 20 turns – and even then, it would be just to show we have a heart.
They made this bed. If they don't want to sleep in it, THEY need to find a way out.
However, I have a couple objections.
1) Emotional: Why, after being constantly dumped on, do we need to continue to respond in humility? I resent that we're just feeding the KISS stereotype of MIA being dishonorable and now we're trying to buy them off to avoid war for our sins. Why can't we say "Bring it on! you paper-tiger cry babies!"
(ok, I realize that none of that is valid.)
2) Practical: I really do believe we can do well in this war. Yes it lets Dnuts back into the game… but why not? They've played very well, especially considering that they've had to deal with TNT. KISS is now playing stupidly, and it's highly unfortunate for us. But we can teach them a lesson like Dnuts did to TNT. We'll fall behind, yes – but we're starting from a position that's ahead (Dnuts are still in the Ancient era!) – when the dust settles, we're likely to not be nearly as far behind Dnuts as they were at the end of their war with TNT. With our crack diplomacy team, it's quite likely we can leverage our current tech lead to at least stay at parity with Dnuts. Maybe we'll even secure more land on our continent?
It's not the best situation – but it's not a doomsday scenario either.
Which is why I'm so opposed to helping KISS with tech. They are 2 very dangerous things… 1) Unstable, and 2) Right next door to us. (TNT might be unstable, but at least they are far away.)
Remind me again why we want a level playing field to compete with KISS?!?
Personally, I'd rather beat them.
We've worked very hard to catch up with them, and we're almost there!
Now – if KISS was being reasonable, and refraining from calling us cheaters – then sure… I'm ok with losing to them if they out-play us.
But good Lord, let's not give them a bunch of tech and help them beat us just because they've called us dirty names!!!
Don't get me wrong – I'm happy to avoid a war – but not at any price.
I can't see giving them more than 5gpt for 20 turns – and even then, it would be just to show we have a heart.
They made this bed. If they don't want to sleep in it, THEY need to find a way out.
gbno1fan
Emperor
agree - I totally agree with G_W here!peter grimes said:
Yes, it did. And, you know, I don't care. Call it the General_W in me, but I'm tired of carefully responding to them and receiving silence or accusations or general rudeness in reply. My letter hints that techs we don't have may be available (once we get them) and ivory is available, but a tech may honestly give up too much - more later in my response to GW.
General_W said:
You're married, aren't you? In our relationship, KISS is the woman. Logic, facts, and who is actually right have no place in discussions with KISS.
General_W said:
We have to recognize what KISS is doing with this war. They know they can't win by fighting us - their goal is only to make us lose. It isn't a question of maybe we'll secure land, or waiting until the dust settles - once this war starts, KISS will not accept peace. Why would they? They will have even less chance of winning then.
To win this game through war, we have to eliminate KISS. Also consider what will happen if we start winning significantly. Dnuts especially (but also possibly TNT) will join against us. Do you feel that confident of our situation right now?
I don't think we want a level playing field with KISS, and I doubt we will give them one. My letter promises absolutely nothing. It is merely an expression of interest. If they want tech parity, then we can always laugh at them later, but if we send a hostile letter now, then there is no option to reconcile later. I think we say, yes, we want peace; yes, we will consider giving you something - right now we have nothing to give you, but tell us what you want, and we'll consider it.
