Sgotm 01 - C F R

Well, temples are a must in CivIV for a cultural win

I don't say that's what necessarily to be done, but I think it will help us. We have boni for both temples and theatres, so you can build both sooner than normal player builds single temple. And currently we do not have much else to build save units (won't need much agaist Russia and then we're consolidating the plunder) and workers (need some more, though). We can set specialists, but they aren't so effective w/o Pyramids.

I think we can both agreee that if we need happiness we can build temple. Obormot thinks we will, and I support it, judging by the experience of the past war, when we had unrest since 1st day.

I think we need to crank out enough units to keep the war going first. After that we might builf some temples and theatres because they are cheap for us. But hopefully we will be able to do without them after connecting the gems. We should also start building galleys in Heliopolis (after Courthouse and forge), so that we don't have to wait after the russian war is over, but can start transporing units to Persia right after the last russian city falls.

And maybe build galleys in Piter too, as it is on the same coast, has horses, cows and future mine and gem mines attached.
How much units are enough for initial onslaught? I don't usually allow computer to gather/produce defenses while I'm siegeing his cities. 5-6 maces, couple of catas for defense reduction and chariots to finish the wounded if necessary would take Moscow the turn after they approach it.

Well, I don't like the idea of building some extra stuff which we don't need. But we need many units and many ships. The only improvement we need for Domination is Courthouse in every city and early Forbidden Palace. All coastal cities can build galleys and all other cities should build units (macemen or catapults). I also fail to see benefit of building a lot of forges especially one in Heliopolis. The forges are expensive and their benefit is rather limited.

The game had deviated far from optimal progress already due to city misplacement and let's not worsen it with some wrong builds.

I agree that forges are usually not worth their cost, but i see nothing wrong with them in this game because we couldn't build macemen yet when we built those forges and WCs were already obsolete. The happiness buildings are of course a last resort when the WW gets really bad.

I think we can start the war with very little troops. The idea is we should bring 1-2 cats covered with a couple od maces and start knocking down the defenses while building more maces at home. By the time the defenses are reduced to 0% we will have about 5-6 maces near Moscow to capture it.

akots said:

Well, I don't like the idea of building some extra stuff which we don't need.

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Neither do I and speak only about necessary number of temples - which may be zero if we grab gems quickly, for example.

By the way, do we plan bringing the war to Cyrus immediately after finishing Russians or spending some turns settling in place and building courthouses? Speaking from strategic and technological initiative point, we'd be better utilise our troops as soon as possible. However, war weariness and need to cut our costs (courthouses and FPalace) dictate the opposite. As our long-run emphasis seems to be on knights and maybe even grenadiers/cavalry, not to mention Astronomy, the quick onslaught on Persia seems to hold us back.

Go after Cyrus as soon as russians are finished! We are going to get Astronomy and knights really soon now and we don't want our units sitting doing nothing. I don't think resaerch is that much of a concern now, but we are lagging behind in conquest. And war weariness is calculated for each civ separately, just as it was in civ3. So as soon as we eliminate russians we will have 0 war weariness untill we accumulate some from fighting Cyrus.

Forge gives additional happy face from Gems and, potentially, from silver. +25% production is also good help. I usually don't use Tamples, but in this game it's very useful in Capital. Sorry, that second Temple wasn't build earlier. Effect from additional Cottage or Mine is very important. About science - we need Construction for Cats, then we can end Drama and on the way to Optics.
May be Construction first was better...

Dynamic said:

usually don't use Tamples, but in this game it's very useful in Capital. Sorry, that second Temple wasn't build earlier. Effect from additional Cottage or Mine is very important.

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I don't think same. IMHO we can use all Cottages at Floodplains now, after gems we can explore 2 (two) additional Cottages or Mines...

Dynamic said:

About science - we need Construction for Cats

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Cats? Good joke Mew-mew...

That was His Majesty's line

I'm here. Yesterday i can't play because, as you now we have discuss problem with ISDN game...

For begining, I would like to draw some statistic:

Territory (we have now) is
99 tiles of 900. This is 11% of World Terrain.
3+3+4+5+7+8+9+9+9+9+10+10+1+1+11=99. As I understand, for domination counting only non-water tiles. In our continent we may have 67 tiles additional. And approximately, from other Continenr: not more than 54+8*4+5*10+16*7+8*4+12=292 tiles. Actualy some less, because lake not counting. Totaly we have: 458 tiles.
To Domination we need 64% of 900 = 576 tiles
So, for win we must capture 118 tiles additionaly.

I think, that for quick game we need some Great Artist. As a culture bomb he give 61 tiles arround city. So, in 3d Continent we can use 2 GA for instantly grow territory. But, now I don't now in wich cite we can grow GA. Thebes will grow GS, Memphis - GP, so we need to plan another city. Wat are you think about?

It could be new Black city as it has fish and 2 FP tiles of its own besides shared with Heliopolis and Thebes. It is low on health, but due to bonuses it kicks in only at pop 5 (6 with granary), so we can irrigate 2 FPs, have fish, work 1 cottage for Thebes and have 10 spare food, meaning 3 artists + 2 for ow health = 8 food spent. This means we could have a "blinking" 4th artist who works cottage from Heliopolis for some time to get food and then returns to artistism and eats it.

Maybe we can still get the one from music? Damn, we should have though about this earlier

I think, that we can use Heliopolis as factory of GA: good production allow buid Wonders ans some FP can farmed later and bring additional food. So I planed to build there Heroic Epic after Forge.

0 (5). According to this plan, I remove 1 scientist to Hill and second is Artist now. I always let cities grow first for maximum size, so switch production in Rostov from Library to Lighthouse.

1 (20). Memphis: Monastery > Worker (4). We need some more worker: 6 cities and only 4 workers. Taosim have been foun and Plato born in a far away land. Thebes up to 8, so can work on 6th Cottage. Elephantine work on FP. Worker go to StPet to help Mining, second one go to El to start Cottages. Work boats go home.

Hm... I canceled deal with Indian (Horse to Pig), because want to get from him additional 3 gold per turn. But Gandi do not need Horse. So, we don't need Iron nearest 10 turns, so I accept new deal: Iron for Pig + 3 gold.

2 (35). Machinery is down, next - Music (9). I tried to discovery it first, so we have GA. Thebest start Granary (loosing 2 food per turn). Note: there are Swordsman, Spearmen and 2 Archers in Persepolis, 40% from culture. Bangalor: Spearmen+Archer, 20%. Looking Info screen: India have Colossus, Pyramids, Parthenon... May be it's my mistake to sold them iron... But now Gandi is pleased to us.

3(50). Mine comleted near St Pet. Worker start Cottage near El. Taxes up to 90%, so 7 turn to Music.

4(65). Worker start tu buid Winmill near St Pet, other one - near Rostov. 2 Archers and Spearmen in Tarsus

5(80). Worker comleted im Menphis, so we start to buid Maceman (5). Of course, for grow more quickly, i must swith to FP. But first I want to buil Cottages on it, so work on Hills. Heliopolis: Forge > Library (way to National Epic). Archer and Spearman in Harappan, +20%. Interesting, that Gandi is Friendly to Cyrus and Cyr to Gandi is too.

Not so easy to attac them, very probably, that one help other in this war. I propose to start with Cyrus, because Indian is more Pleased for us.

6 (95). Cottage finished near Heliopolis, so I switch Elephantine on it (why not turn early? - I forgot). Granary in Thebes, so I add one Scienstist and start Maceman. Priesthood to Persian for 40 gold.

7(110). Borders of El have expanded.

8 (125). Lighthouse comleted in Rostov, Barracks (8) began.

9 (140). Axeman, Immortal and Archer in Abela, 50%.

10 (155). Music > Construction (5). Mem: Maceman > Maceman.

Well, Homer (GA) been born in Thebes!

We're locked at peace with Gandhi. Don't plan attack on him and don't count his land in domination limit, please. And I do not think we need lighthouse in Rostov now, it is already a decent production factory. So the offence slows down.

The cultural moves are super, my total respect. Going for cheap cultural wonders is a good idea, esp. NatEpic.

Good session. I only thought Barracks in Rostov was better then Lighthouse... and, growth in Memphis too...

Getting the GA is a good news. I am not completely sure that we need another one though. I domn't think we will have so many resisting towns in the end of the game to make 2 GA usefull and without resistance we will expand the borders fast enough. And I agree with akots that we are building way too much useless stuff in our cities. Production is the bottleneck now, not research. We are 4 techs away from Astronomy, so we should be able to get it soon. I am afraid that we won't even conquer Russia by the time we get Astronomy while the right balance between production and research is conquering both Persia AND Russia by that time so that we can transport our units to other continents. There is absolutely no use of sacrificing production to get Astronomy 2-3 turns earlier because our units will still be stuck in local wars and we won't get them over to other continents. OK, i guess akots will now correct the sitaution at least a little bit during his turns

I've got it, will play shortly, probably even today later on.

I'll try to do what I can. It might be a good idea to try to trigger Golden Age, I'll keep this in mind as well.

Witan apparently somehow was confused about the land because we cannot attack Gandhi, we have locked peace. Instead of using the Artist as culture bomb, he might be more useful later on for Golden Age to boost production.

On a sidenote, science is good if we can get far enough to cavalry. I'm not sure as to how powerful the AIs are here. major concern is with Inca.

I thought we agreed to go for domination with macemen and knights. If it is possible to kill everybody with horse archers and axemen on emperor and normal speed, why can't we kill everybody on monarch and epic speed with maces and knights? Of course Astronomy makes it more difficult, but still I don't think we need anything more advanced then knights.

Well, there is one thing here and that thing is that we will need a lot of macemen and knights, very many indeed. I'm not sure we can build that many.

The games you mention were played differently and completely differently. First, there was very little sicence in the beginning, iirc, not a single cottage was ever built. All went out for production and building of units with only basic science in place. So, when the warmongering started, AIs had no good defenders (mostly archers and a few longbowmen) and culture in AI cities was not that high. Here, we have a different setup. So, we might need advanced units after all. Another thing is that most of the production in conquered cities came from forest chops. The longer it takes for us to get to these conquered cities, the less forest is left there for us to chop. So, we don't get much production from these cities.

The game had been played differently from the very beginning and thus I don't see how that same approach can be used in our situation. AIs are very close to having Feudalism as well. So, I will repeat that we can try to do this with knights and macemen here but we will need very many (a hundred?) of units to do it rapidly. It does not look like that this can be done now.

We have though a rather good commerce output and we can try to use this at our advantage here.