On Random Map Creation - Work to be done?

This is not a thread about designing individual maps, but instead about the random map generator itself.

It's what perhaps we'd like to see it doing. This has NO bearing on whether or not Kael and the team will even do anything about it.

My notion is this. It would be great If the maps were more confluent and unique over a span of Space.

WHen we think of large awesome legendary landscapes, middle earth, middgarrd and other lands come to mind. Large mountain Ranges, vast open plains, scorching desert, jungle and forest for miles.

As it is even when you do "young planet" It clumps fairly poorly. It would be great to see a tweak in the Map creation system associated with WHOM someone chose also. Dwarven players could be positioned more closely to peaks and hills, elves to the forest, the Malakim to the desert, etc.

I've always liked the idea of a Large continant, with a smaller sub continant, and a archipeligo off to one side, but how to produce this randomly?

Where one winds up could also play an influence on (but not necessitate) which religions are founded. If someone's on the coast or in that archepeligo, mayhap they will chose to go OO. If they're in the Forests, perhaps Fellowship is most useful, mountains might bring runes to mind......the Vale and Order can fend for themselves wherever they appear, as its late game relgionswise.

This is something that shouldnt be worked on until they're ready to start the phase that involves "world building" or creation and immersement into Kael and teams concoction.
-Qes

I've been hoping for an FfH mapscript for months, but I have no python ability and it hasn't been a high priority until the mod is closer to completion. I'd love to see one though.

woodelf said:

I've been hoping for an FfH mapscript for months, but I have no python ability and it hasn't been a high priority until the mod is closer to completion. I'd love to see one though.

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Woodelf, longtime no see.

Yeah, i have no programing abilaties. But im fairly good at seeing questions that need to be answered, balance issues, theme and general scope.

Der...I ask questions alot. This is one i thought needed a thread.

Do you have any idea what Kael's World is to look like? THematically? {Not strictly speaking as its a script thats needed}

Right now randomness is a good thing. I don't think the world has a distinct look, except for scenarios obviously.

My biggest concern has always been dropping civs into a starting location suitable for their traits/stats/ect. Right now it's entirely possible (and likely) that a dwarven civ could find themselves in plains, an elven civ in the desert or tundra, ect&&. Or worse yet is having your UU require a resource that is nowhere near your starting spot.

As a player I can start over when it becomes obvious that my location sucks, but the AI can't. I've pestered Chalid and almost had his will broken on this issue, but his time is better spent making awesome models or coding up the AI. Maybe someone else can give it a go.

woodelf said:

As a player I can start over when it becomes obvious that my location sucks, but the AI can't. I've pestered Chalid and almost had his will broken on this issue, but his time is better spent making awesome models or coding up the AI. Maybe someone else can give it a go.

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Pestering Chalid or trying to code it? The Former im good at, the latter ive no ability in what so ever .

Yeah, it's always a shame when i finally get MY good spot...but the rest of the world is in odd places. Oh look, sea peoples without water.......crunching time.

Do you know anyone you can blackmail who can code well?
-Qes

I like the way that the different religions are on different tech paths. The Fellowship is on the hunting/nature loving track, the Runes off mining, OO near sailing, the Veil by magic, and of course the Order by the legal techs. If a Civ is researching based on where they are (naval techs when coastal, mining techs for hills), then they're probably going to get the related religion. I like this very much.

Chandrasekhar said:

I like the way that the different religions are on different tech paths. The Fellowship is on the hunting/nature loving track, the Runes off mining, OO near sailing, the Veil by magic, and of course the Order by the legal techs. If a Civ is researching based on where they are (naval techs when coastal, mining techs for hills), then they're probably going to get the related religion. I like this very much.

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Yes, exactly, but is there a way for the map to treat areas with more discerning placement? While its cool for Human players to adapt , the AI tends not to, and wile oft take the religion that is best suited (most stereotypical) to found. It will willingly switch to others relgion, but it wont actively pursue founding religions contrary to the civs natural standings. In this it'd be nice to put the civs WITH those leanings in more environmentally equitable locations. For civs that it doesnt matter, they should be able to be placed anywhere, but with civs with pensions for more specific locales, it'd be ideal if they're starting locations reflected this bais. Mostly, as we said, for the AI, because where as humans can adapt and relocate, or generally get by, the unfortunate dwarf ai near no hills, and no minerals, is going to be SOL, come midgame.
-Qes

A FFH map generator is a great idea. Perhaps instead of beating a dead horse you could appeal to the powers that be to get with someone like Surt. (He's the guy that did Smart Map, and a apparently a master of Map-jutsu.) Just a thought.

I believe I've heard something here about the map generator calculating a number of starting locations, then assigning them to Civs based on what terrain features were there. This sounds real nice.

Starship said:

A FFH map generator is a great idea. Perhaps instead of beating a dead horse you could appeal to the powers that be to get with someone like Surt. (He's the guy that did Smart Map, and a apparently a master of Map-jutsu.) Just a thought.

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So you say his kung-fu is strong?
We will see, send him to this thread, and we will test his abilities!

If the grasshopper is able to grasp the thread from my ..zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

-Qes

Chandrasekhar said:

I believe I've heard something here about the map generator calculating a number of starting locations, then assigning them to Civs based on what terrain features were there. This sounds real nice.

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And it sounds like, if someone were to make a few nudges, we could get the generator to prefer certain civs in certain areas...i sense longer loading times....but it'd be worth it.
-Qes

More than worth it, I'd say. A friend of mine will only play in rocky map settings (I forget the exact name) when he's Khazad because he seems convinced that it's not fair for the game to start him in the middle of a bunch of flood plains and such. This should appease him.

Haha im exactly the same... When I play Khazad or the other dwarf civ, i always choose the Rocky map.

QES said:

WHen we think of large awesome legendary landscapes, middle earth, middgarrd and other lands come to mind. Large mountain Ranges, vast open plains, scorching desert, jungle and forest for miles.
As it is even when you do "young planet" It clumps fairly poorly. It would be great to see a tweak in the Map creation system associated with WHOM someone chose also. Dwarven players could be positioned more closely to peaks and hills, elves to the forest, the Malakim to the desert, etc.

I've always liked the idea of a Large continant, with a smaller sub continant, and a archipeligo off to one side.Qes

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If you have lately looked at some of the maps i have at my thread you will see "mostly" this. And the Continent one is there and more coming.
Just takes awhile to remake them sometimes. Like making a clean map took me about five to seven hours.
If any ideas let me know and i will start looking for what you'll want.
But i am not a mapscript person, ok.

EDIT:AS of 19 Jul 11:18, Changed my scenario's completely around, if you have ideas suggestions let me know, thats why i just changed the look of my thread around drastically.

strategyonly said:

If you have lately looked at some of the maps i have at my thread you will see "mostly" this. And the Continent one is there and more coming.
Just takes awhile to remake them sometimes. Like making a clean map took me about five to seven hours.
If any ideas let me know and i will start looking for what you'll want.
But i am not a mapscript person, ok.

EDIT:AS of 19 Jul 11:18, Changed my scenario's completely around, if you have ideas suggestions let me know, thats why i just changed the look of my thread around drastically.

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Dont get me wrong, i want actual maps to keep being made, its great that your polishing the product. But the generator itself is the main thing here, so that games are not repeated. Some worlds ARE very fun to play on over and over. Especially if the map itself gives the impression of a very specific world or story line. But here we just want different maps generated in ways that lend themselves to the fantasy feel. This is low on the priority list, but a cosmetic (and in some ways balance) issue that can be resolved whenever someone with scripting ability comes along and discovers it.
-Qes

1. Get the smart map mod
2. Increase the hills (to account for FFH requiring a lot of production (additional buildings to build troops, etc))
3. Make it many rivers (to increase science to account for FFH requiring a lot of science)
4. Fiddle with the other settings a bit to get land masses that you want
5. (optional) turn on many goodie huts

It works well on normal civ games though I usually just use fractal on FFH. Putting a high level AI (Monarch/Emperor) on a map with more rivers = HARD. All of their AI bonus' to research help and although the AI is sometimes dumb with improvements they usually do well with cities on rivers.

Mahatmajon said:

1. Get the smart map mod
2. Increase the hills (to account for FFH requiring a lot of production (additional buildings to build troops, etc))
3. Make it many rivers (to increase science to account for FFH requiring a lot of science)
4. Fiddle with the other settings a bit to get land masses that you want
5. (optional) turn on many goodie huts

It works well on normal civ games though I usually just use fractal on FFH. Putting a high level AI (Monarch/Emperor) on a map with more rivers = HARD. All of their AI bonus' to research help and although the AI is sometimes dumb with improvements they usually do well with cities on rivers.

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The goals here arent merely to get a clean cute map. The goals also involve civ placement that meets with the idea of "natural progression" It would make sense that elves, NATURALLY (i.e. start in) forested areas. Or that Sea peoples start near water. Malakim desert, dwarves hills, and so on.

The hope here, i think, is not only for a "younger than young" style map in which woods are expansive, as are deserts and mountain ranges. But also the feeling that each civ started where it did because of their location. Religions too become more sensical based on location. If a very human non-descript civ starts along the coast, it would make sense for them to pursue Octupus overlords. If these same humans started near trees, fellowship. Etc.

But races form about because of where they are from, not so much out of "choice". Yes, gods did that. But in theory, gods also made this world. So were hoping that the random map generator (gods hitting the reset button), could differentiate between different TYPES of starting locations and give preference to some civs in some areas. Some civs (like human ones) dont really need/want/deserve preference, but elves, seafolk, and dwarves should genereally start in (but feel free to expand out of) areas that coincide with the common racial profiling we view them with.
-Qes

QES said:

The goals here arent merely to get a clean cute map. The goals also involve civ placement that meets with the idea of "natural progression" It would make sense that elves, NATURALLY (i.e. start in) forested areas. Or that Sea peoples start near water. Malakim desert, dwarves hills, and so on.
-Qes

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I understand, but given that this doesn't exist yet (or at least I haven't seen it) I think you'll find that SmartMap is a much better map generator and it's options can tweak a map for FFH that is much more likely to result in better starting locations & more successful AI's.

Mahatmajon said:

I understand, but given that this doesn't exist yet (or at least I haven't seen it) I think you'll find that SmartMap is a much better map generator and it's options can tweak a map for FFH that is much more likely to result in better starting locations & more successful AI's.

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Smart map is great. I've no doubt. And im going to go get it now. But this is not to say i dont want..more. For you see, i am a greedy slob. And i figured by making this thread, i could perchance encourage other greedy slobs to unite with me, and convince the creation team to indulge us.

I sense that im not alone in these wishes, is all.
-Qes

I use SmartMap with among other settings:

Heavy Forest (though I halved the amount of extra forest SmartMap creates - at the unedited Heavy setting about ALL the map is filled with forest :dizzy
=> good for Fellowship of Leaves

30% hills => good for Runes of Kilmorph

Heavy rivers, heavy lakes => good for Octopus Overlords

So no matter where you start, you almost always have some good terrain for whatever religion you pick.

Other stuff is eg 10% peaks, heavy fragments which gives a very fjordlike Scandinavian feel to the map.