Suggestion : Vasalage VS Capitulation

Pitboss · Sep 17, 2006

Accepting a nations capitulation as it is now (one city remains), is kinda screwing yourself.
You end up with almost always more negative diplomatic, economic, tech and resource effects.

If the capitulated nation, were to become a permanent ally, unless for breaking any of the 50% restrictions, it would actualy make it worth while.

Feel free to argue your position, pro or contra

edit : +
A benefit from seperating them could be that you could capitulate straight from the start, or a bit later.
Since surrendering isn't actualy a tech. But a sence of reason for survival.

Orthodox Warior · Sep 17, 2006

From my expirience if AI offers capitulation I accept only if he has more than 3 cities. This gives ability to sell him resources because his economy will be enough to pay from 5-30 gold for resources. If I sell him for example 3 resources for price 7 gold that is 21 gold per turn. Handy

Pitboss · Sep 17, 2006

3 cities seem worth something indeed, but that rarly seems to happen to me.
Seems like they realy are thick headed.

But perhaps a capitulated nation could become an economic zone, that only is allowed to trade trough your civ, or something alike ... perhaps based on what Colbert did 350-400 years ago.

50_dollar_bag · Sep 17, 2006

I've had Gandhi Capitulate to me with 7 cities and he was at 46% of my land area but with only 20% the pop. That was a good vassal. Peacenik.

It depends what kind of win you're going for as to whether the negative diplo hit matters, if I'm going Dom or Conquest I'm usually lining my next opponent up after I accept a capitulation.

Sometimes an AI vassal with 1 city can be worth, just check if it's cottaged spammed or has high commerce tiles.

Pitboss · Sep 17, 2006

50_dollar_bag said:
I've had Gandhi Capitulate to me with 7 cities and he was at 46% of my land area but with only 20% the pop. That was a good vassal. Peacenik.

OMG, could you teach me how you do that ?

50_dollar_bag said:
It depends what kind of win you're going for as to whether the negative diplo hit matters, if I'm going Dom or Conquest I'm usually lining my next opponent up after I accept a capitulation.

Well, I'm never starting a civ game with any thoughts on how I'm gonna win it. I usualy just play the game and see how it evolves. And since I get attacked in almost every game, by civs that have less cities and armies .... they just doom themselfs.

50_dollar_bag said:
Sometimes an AI vassal with 1 city can be worth, just check if it's cottaged spammed or has high commerce tiles.

Unless, that vasal realy hates your guts, and you'll overtake most of his tiles trough culture/influence.

50_dollar_bag · Sep 17, 2006

Pitboss said:
OMG, could you teach me how you do that ?

I think it might just be Gandhi who'll do it, that was a first for me.

Pitboss · Sep 17, 2006

Perhaps, but I've encountered the Gandhi character quite often, and he was rarly the leader of weak nation, he mostly did end up in the top 3-5.

If only he were so peace loving when I encounter him in battle ...

CivDude86 · Sep 18, 2006

Be nice if I could gift back some their captured cities.

Pitboss · Sep 18, 2006

You can

Just open a diplomacy screen with you vasal & give them those cities by selecting them from your list of cities.

General Failure · Sep 18, 2006

I've always felt that vassalage and capitulation are two different things. I would love to see Firaxis split them, but I don't think it's going to happen, if I see the rumors about the October patch...

General Failure

cabert · Sep 18, 2006

i had mansa musa capitulate to me with a good deal of cities in his hands. And a large tech lead on me!
I think he got scared because my 2 previous vassals declared war too (duh!), making it a serious dogpile.

And a vassal with one strong city can give you a lot of money without costing you too much. I traded all i could to a 1 city JC, and got my pockets full from it.

Pitboss · Sep 18, 2006

General Failure said:
I've always felt that vassalage and capitulation are two different things. I would love to see Firaxis split them, but I don't think it's going to happen, if I see the rumors about the October patch...

General Failure

I've read those rumors to, but I think their is still room for a split up

cabert said:
i had mansa musa capitulate to me with a good deal of cities in his hands. And a large tech lead on me!
I think he got scared because my 2 previous vassals declared war too (duh!), making it a serious dogpile.

And a vassal with one strong city can give you a lot of money without costing you too much. I traded all i could to a 1 city JC, and got my pockets full from it.

That's the kind of thing that never seems to be willing to happen to me.
And if it happens, the AI always picks an other AI to surrender to. Even if he has to declar war to them so that he can surrender to them.

cabert · Sep 18, 2006

Pitboss said:
That's the kind of thing that never seems to be willing to happen to me.
And if it happens, the AI always picks an other AI to surrender to. Even if he has to declar war to them so that he can surrender to them.

maybe you need to attack faster and ask the AI what he would give for peace every turn?

Pitboss · Sep 18, 2006

I do ask every 2 or 3 turns, and untill I'm standing in front of his (sometimes 2) last cities, he won't even think about capitulation. It's like if he doesn't even know the word

Agarwaen · Sep 18, 2006

In the terra map (18civs) Saladin surrended to me with more then 10 cities! he was almost as big as I and the stronger AI

Pitboss · Sep 18, 2006

And you've had the same religion, good diplomacy, ... what did give you the edge on his decision do you think ?

General Failure · Sep 18, 2006

Pitboss said:
I've read those rumors to, but I think their is still room for a split up

We can always hope! :goodjob:

Quagga · Sep 18, 2006

I find Capitulation/Vassal State more frustrating than not. I rarely have a civ Capitulate to me, but they seem pretty happy to do it to each other.

In a recent game, I was about to take a city from Frederick. Suddenly I was at peace with him because he became a Vassal to one of my allies (Napoleon). Not only could I no longer capture that city, but the previously captured city kept going into rebellion, making it worthless to me. :gripe:

(To add insult to injury, when I later attacked Mansa, Nappy backstabbed me -- along with Frederick -- and declared on me, even though he didn't like Mansa throughout the game. Bribed with Tech, no doubt. :cry:

)

Reg Pither · Sep 18, 2006

Pitboss said:
Accepting a nations capitulation as it is now (one city remains), is kinda screwing yourself.

I've never had a vassal with only one city. The minimum I've had is one with three, and I've had capitulation offered after I've only taken a couple of cities out of a dozen or so. If it were offered with only one city to go, I'd just laugh as my merciless armies crush the defenders.

Pitboss · Sep 18, 2006

Quagga said:
I find Capitulation/Vassal State more frustrating than not. I rarely have a civ Capitulate to me, but they seem pretty happy to do it to each other.

In a recent game, I was about to take a city from Frederick. Suddenly I was at peace with him because he became a Vassal to one of my allies (Napoleon). Not only could I no longer capture that city, but the previously captured city kept going into rebellion, making it worthless to me.

(To add insult to injury, when I later attacked Mansa, Nappy backstabbed me -- along with Frederick -- and declared on me, even though he didn't like Mansa throughout the game. Bribed with Tech, no doubt. )

Seems like the AI has more cards then the human players.

It reminds me of a recent game, where I fought against Hannibal almost from the start, and after starting capturing his town, thanks to the siege weapons. His "friend" Alexander that had a -1 on me 'cause I attacked his friend. Came to the border. Declared war, took ONE city and the AI Hannibal surrendered to the AI Alexander ... :sad:

Reg Pither said:
I've never had a vassal with only one city. The minimum I've had is one with three, and I've had capitulation offered after I've only taken a couple of cities out of a dozen or so. If it were offered with only one city to go, I'd just laugh as my merciless armies crush the defenders.

On what level did you play ?
In what circumstances ? more tech, armies, culture, a widespread religion, ... I realy would like to know how you can achieve this
And I do laugh to at those 1 city surrendering offers as well, if you've been battling them to their last city .... you kinda see it as the cherry on top of a dessert.

Except for early fights, when you don't have marines yet, and they're somewhere out on the ocean on a one tile island.

Suggestion : Vasalage VS Capitulation

Vasalage ... your finale frontier ?

yes, split them up

might be interesting ...

nope, I like the way they screw me over ;-)

Just reform the whole vasalage concept.

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