Italian AAR - Who can stop the Ottomans?

Playing with MyMap - AGCEEP 1.39

The Backstory:

At the beginning of the 15th century the nation of Milan consisted of the self named city and two towns two the north that could barely escape being classified as large villages. Many wars later and through diplomatic actions, Milan managed to conquer a significant portion of Italy. The most famous diplomatic action was of course the diplomatic annexation of Genoa and after this we would claim the title of Italy.

Since then expansion continued with a war won against France and occasional wars against Venice. The wars against Venice were perhaps responsible for the thread title. It is now commonly believed that our wars against Venice and eventually annexing them allowed the Ottomans to expand into Europe. The people of Italy would point instead to the Ottomans having conquered the lands left by the Golden Horde.

After the annexation of Venice the nobility were quick to distance ourselves from claims on former Venetian lands that were now held by the Ottomans and perhaps we could have had peace with the Ottomans. Our diplomatic annexation of Savoy would change the situation as no nation was keen to see Italy expand further and the Ottomans took diplomatic criticism one step further.

The next twenty years would eventually see Italy fight three wars against the Ottomans which would resolve the Italian people to have a strong hatred for the Ottoman invaders. The first war saw Italy alone to fight the Ottomans and their puppet state of Hungary. This war would perhaps be the most positive for the Italians as we would defeat a number of Hungarian armies and in the final peace treaty we managed to gain the only Italian province under Ottoman control (Udine).

In the second war peace was accepted for cash however things were starting to look bleak as the Ottomans continued to expand elsewhere at the expense of Austria who had granted us the title of Italy. The third and final war of the period was finally fought with allies after we had bribed our way into an alliance with France and Spain. The war would go horribly wrong in the end as France started two new wars and we accepted a separate peace treaty.

A map from the time:



It is now fast approaching 1600 and the Ottomans still own a foothold in Southern Italy after gaining it from France and still control a sizeable amount of German lands. Italy has spent the years colonising America however the resentment of the Ottomans has grown stronger as displaced nobility streamed over the border. Italy has now accepted the challenge of pushing back the Ottomans.

Initial plans:

If the Ottomans have a weakness it is their navy and in all three wars we have gained a number of victories and should be able to rely on controlling the Venetian coast line. Militarily our armies may often lose to the Ottomans however we have in the past defeated Hungarian armies with relative frequency and capturing their coastal cities is likely to be part of any plan.

Technologically our military is on a par with the Ottomans and no other military in the world can match our technology. Hungary has fallen behind in technology and this is perhaps the major factor that limits their military effectiveness.

Diplomatically we have a decent alliance however France is in a random colonial war that they cannot win and this means that they are still the leader of the alliance. It may prove necessary to fight the war without allies and instead wait for the Ottomans to declare war elsewhere. Fighting a war without being the alliance leader could be disastrous as they may negotiate away any advantage we gain.

Territory is an issue. The Ottomans control a massive empire and one war is unlikely to be enough to sufficiently weaken them. Additionally we still hold four former Genoese cities that are extremely difficult to defend. The only positive in this regard being that the islands of Lesbos have been heavily fortified and may well be able to hold out.

An initial plan:

The current plan is to wait for the Ottomans to become involved in a war elsewhere. Once that war begins we will increase our army size to approaching 100k. 10k troops will be stationed in Southern Italy to attempt to liberate the city from Ottoman rule. 15k troops will begin the war in Ragusa where they will be sent to begin sieges in two Hungarian provinces. Another 15k troops will be sent to besiege the neighbouring Hungarian province and another army of 15k will begin a siege in Croatia. The aim is to take Hungary out of the war inside the first two years.

The remaining troops will be stationed in Salzburg and Northern Italy where they will begin sieges wherever possible however they will quite possibly have to take defensive positions initially.

What are you relations with Hungary? With gifting they could be so nice to you that they wouldn't join war with Otto.

Just checked my relations with Hungary and they were -50 so not that bad.

We would not have long to wait for an opportunity for war. The Ottomans declared war on Denmark and soon after the first new armies was recruited whilst our existing armies were positioned for attack. Helpfully the Ottomans removed 22k troops from Abruzzi in Southern Italy and so on April 1600 war was declared:



The decision was taken to not invite our alliance into the war as early victories might result in France accepting peace for 5 ducats or similar. The Ottoman allies had no such doubts and Hungary, Wallachia and Ajuuraan joined the war against us. There was some good news though as the Austrians decided that they must take the opportunity and declared war on the Ottomans as well.

A plan may not last first contact with the enemy but they are a useful place to start. The armies along the Hungarian border proceeded as planned to begin sieges along the coast whilst half of the Southern Italian army marched south to begin a siege in Abruzzi and the other half began to load into the fleet in the gulf of Venice. To the north our army in Salzburg marched east to begin a siege in Ober Osterreich.

The opening moves:



Austria joining the war and the lack of enemy troops gave the Italian leaders the confidence to press the attack. More troops were poured into Hungary and two further sieges were started in Ottoman territory. Our navy in the gulf of Venice would gain numerous victories throughout the war and the Ottomans never managed to hold the sea zone even when they won a naval victory. Interestingly the expected sieges in our eastern territories never materialised.

Increased troops:



The next stage of the war was to wait for the sieges to progress whilst watching the Ottomans and Hungarians gradually bring troops north. The Austrians proved to be a great distraction throughout the war as the Ottomans concentrated 100k troops in their siege of Vienna whilst leaving us relatively in peace. The first cities to fall to our troops were Montenegro (HUN), Hum (HUN) and Ober Osterreich (TUR). The successful troops in Hungary began sieges in Bosnian territory controlled by Wallachia whilst the northern army returned to Salzburg.

Bihac (HUN) and Carniolia (TUR) would fall next with both armies moving against the Hungarians. Abruzzi fell next to our troops leaving 15k troops with nothing to do. Our initial war aim had been to knock Hungary out of the war and this was progressing better than expected. In the war councils the option to press the attack against the Ottomans gained support and thus an army was sent south towards Albania where no Ottoman armies were in sight. A number of major battles would occur before the troops landed in Albania. In the north our 18k troops in Salzburg successfully defeated 22k Hungarian troops however our army in Transdanubia was defeated by another Hungarian army. Further south our army in Salonia defeated an African army belonging to Ajuuraan which had numerical superiority but the Ottomans had failed to gift their allies matching technology.

The war in Hungary:



After Croatia fell to our armies, Krbaha was the next city to be captured. A famous victory was gained in Slavonia as a joint Ajuuraan/Hungarian army of 22k was defeated by our 10k troops. 3k our troops survived the encounter and reinforcements soon arrived to maintain the siege. A string of provinces fell to our troops over the next months. Rashka (WAL), Schwaben (TUR) and Usora (HUN) all fell however it was not all positive as the Ottomans had several rather large armies in their Austrian territories. The fall of Usora would see further Italian armies march south to begin sieges in Ottoman provinces and little opposition was found.

Dalmatia (HUN) was the next province to fall to our armies and finally peace could be signed with the Hungarians. The peace treaty gave Croatia, Dalmatia, Hum, Montenegro and Krbaha to Italy. The war had been fought to liberate Christian lands and thus the decision was taken to create Croatia as a new state that would hopefully aid our cause in the future.

Peace with Hungary:



Croatia:



The victory celebrations were marred by the defeat of our northern army in Salzburg against an Ottoman army. With the war against Hungary the Italian leadership began to take steps to end the war. Bosnia (WAL) fell to our troops soon after peace with Hungary had been signed and Wallachia agreed for peace in exchange for Bosnia. That left the Ottomans to negotiate peace with. Our war score was positive and with Salzburg under siege the decision was to negotiate peace as soon as possible. Our second treaty was accepted by the Ottomans which saw Abruzzi and Carniola become part of our Kingdom.

The war had been extremely successful lasting only two and a half years and gaining 7 provinces plus a vassal state. The downside was that our badboy rating increased to 27 which may make our allies betray us in the future. Options to improve our reputation could be to negotiate a province trade with Croatia where we would give them a former Hungarian province or alternatively creating another vassal although there are few other obvious candidates except for Salzburg. The other negative side of the war is that Austria may well end up losing more provinces to the Ottomans although if the Ottomans declare war in five years then we would be able to gain more provinces.

I've just edited the save game file.

Basically the story line is that I've given Dalmatia and Krbaha to Croatia which are their national provinces that I own and reduced my BB rating to 23 to represent that we have been fighting the war to stop the Ottoman advance rather than for our own gain.

Subscribed, and good luck against the Ottomans.

Any chances of their frontiers collapsing? I've never seen the Ottomans hold Romania - and certainly not the Crimean - for that long a time. With you waging war on them it may force their garrisons away.

I think they will hold Crimea simply because Russia doesn't exist with only two of the Russian states still remaining. If Poland ever bothered declaring war then maybe but I believe that Poland are technologically behind the Ottomans. Of course if they did declare war then I would as well.

Austria ended up signing peace for a load of gold and they gave another province to the Ottomans.

Thankee, and what's that nation controlling south-west England, out of interest? Has Cornwall rebelled against the King?

Connaught, one of the Irish nations control it although I think it was originally taken by Denmark or Sweden.

I thought it was Portugals province, coz they often have at least one province in France or British Isles.

Once the war had ended the Italians went back to colonising America however they knew that the Ottomans would want revenge and so it was no real surprise when the Ottomans declared war on March 1612. The last war had seen the Italians heavily defeat the Hungarians. This time the objective was to hurt the Ottomans and additionally we decided to bring our allies into the war this time.

War!



The initial stages of the war were a replication of the first war with our Salzburg army moving east to Siege Ober Osterreich whilst our main armies pushed into Hungary and Wallachia. The first change to the strategy was to sign a white peace with Wallachia after winning a battle against them as we did not want their province or to weaken them and additionally it separated us in the military alliance so that we could negotiate a separate peace with the Ottomans. The second change was to concentrate more on the Ottoman provinces that we had borders with to the east. Ober Osterreich was the first province to fall and we gained a number of victories against small and medium sized Ottoman armies and initial naval victories.

Initial moves:



Bihac (HUN) and Durazzo (TUR) fell to our armies over the next months and elsewhere we defeated a Hungarian army in Croatia that had besieged our allies. Macva (TUR) and Usoro (HUN) fell to our armies in the same day and after a second victory in Croatia against a joint Hungarian/Ottoman army we arranged peace with Hungary for 50 ducats and Usoro which was a relatively rich province. We could now concentrate fully on the Ottomans and it became clear that Greece was virtually undefended. For the rest of the war our war efforts would be entirely focused on capturing Greek provinces. Epirus and Kosovo were captured and our armies marched further east.

The beginnings of the Greek invasion:



In the north the French actually made some progress against the Ottomans and captured Schwaben, Wirtemberg, Tyrol and Burgunland and still have these provinces under their control. The benefit was that the Ottomans broke the siege of Salzburg to attack the French which freed us to continue gaining war score in Greece. This was after a dismal month where our army was defeated in Salzburg after Ober Osterreich had been recaptured and our navy in the Gulf of Venice was defeated. Serbia would be captured soon after as the fortunes of war turned once again in our favour.

France doing well:



The rest of the war would be spent capturing Greek cities and occasionally defeating Ajuuraan armies. Ohrid fell first and was followed by Dardania and Attica (Athens). Euboea was captured as it had no fort and Salonika was captured soon after. The Italian leadership was a little confused over how the Ottomans put such little effort into defending Greece whilst they would throw everything in the north to keep the former Austrian cities. Perhaps they felt that they must recapture Tyrol or that once this was accomplished they would be able to invade northern Italy. Either way it did not pay off.

Conquest of Greece:



Thessaly and Macedonia were the last provinces to be captured before the Ottomans offered peace. As is so often the case they rejected our offer for peace earlier in the same month and we had requested less provinces.

The peace offer:



Our bad boy rating is now 37 which is extremely high. I guess I will just have to live with it however this was a defensive war and with such a high bad boy rating we can expect the Ottomans to declare war again in 5 years. It is nice to have conquered a portion of Greece and interesting that France might actually win their war against the Ottomans. The only disappointment is that it looks like the Hungarians will defeat Croatia.

Italy:

Wow, you really kick Otto ass! Have you considered naval invasion to ALexandria in next war?

Kan' Sharuminar said:

Thankee, and what's that nation controlling south-west England, out of interest? Has Cornwall rebelled against the King?

Click to expand...

Our time will come...

Hitti-Litti said:

Wow, you really kick Otto ass! Have you considered naval invasion to ALexandria in next war?

Click to expand...

I hadn't really considered it. I don't think it would be successful as the Ottomans have a fleet of 115 ships and so it would be difficult to reach Alexandria and just as hard to defend it.

Well written and excellent! But curse you for making me want to reinstall EU2 and the AGCEEP.

Thanks. Mymap is a really nice addition especially with Italy as there is a lot more land to conquer.

I've played a few more turns where I have continued colonising America (Screenshot below) and upgrading my captured provinces. Austria somehow managed to win a war against the Ottomans although they only got cash for peace. We had a brief war against England and their allies after France declared war however we soon negotiated peace for cash after taking their colonies. I didn't think it was worth the BB points for a couple of colonies and quite like England to have colonies in America so that the USA can form.

I did edit the saved game in the end. Firstly I halved the BB points that I had gained so I now have 32 as a BB rating. Basically the increased number of provinces implies that the BB limits should be higher or increase slower and a few other reasons. Additionally I decided to give myself Greek culture. The benefit of this is that it makes the Greek provinces I have conquered reasonably productive and means that I have something to gain from wars in the future.

The reasoning:
-Venice has Greek culture and we annexed them so it is natural that some of the Italian nobility would look east.
-There is no Greek nation other than the invading Ottomans so it is reasonable to assume that a nation conquering enough Greek provinces could gain Greek culture as the population supports our rule.
-I cannot create any Greek nation so I cannot do what I did with Croatia.
-I conquered a number of major Greek cities and have had several Greek provinces for a long period of time.
- We are Italians and we control Rome so there might just been a few people who are dreaming of creating the Roman empire and be agreeable to Greek culture.

Colonies:

Are sieges faster in mymap? If they are not, playing as warmongerer is a pain in the ass, coz liberating small area would last damn long.

They seem to take the same length of time with Venice occasionally lasting for years and years if you don't have a navy in the area or assault it.

After the previous two victorious wars against the Ottomans there was a feeling that if the opportunity arose that we should press for a third war. The aim would be to gain further Greek cities such as Morea and Macedonia. The opportunity would arise when the Wallachia diplomat gravely insulted our nation and gave an excuse for war. War was declared and we called on our allies to support us. Spain no longer had good relations with Italy and thus declined to enter the war however Croatia, France and the Palatinate did join on our side. Additionally Austria and Hannover would declare war against the Ottomans as well.

35k troops had been stationed in our previous Greek conquests and those armies were sent north and south to begin sieges. For the first time there was no Salzburg army however we did still have a Northern Italian army ready to break any sieges in our territory. The opening stage of the war would not go well for the Italians. Our army in Salonica was defeated whilst the Ottomans placed Salzburg under siege. Additionally the support limit in Morea was too low to support a siege so the city would have to be taken through an assault.

The first city to fall would be Achaia to our armies after a failed assault weakened the resolve of the fort. Salonica would then fall to the Ottomans whilst we captured Ochid. The tide of the war in Greece would strongly turn in our favour as our forces concentrated in Thessaly and marched north to attack the Ottomans in Salonica before they could retreat. A crushing victory was gained and the victorious army attempted to assault the city whilst another assault began in Morea. The Ottoman troops in Salonica would hold out however Morea was captured.

In the north we lost Salzburg to the Ottomans however the French and Palatinate had gained numerous victories and thus our Northern army was able to march north into Steiermark where the fort was assaulted. The 30k troops were twice assaulted by Ottoman armies of around 25k troops each and both times our troops were victorious. Credit must go to our Palatinate allies who sent 20k troops to aid our cause. The city was captured and our troops moved north to try and recapture Salzburg. A white peace was signed with Hungary to separate ourselves from the French alliance and additionally it was not a war objective to defeat the Hungarians. Our only previous engagement against their armies had been in Zagreb where we defeated their army that had laid siege to Zagreb.

Progress made in Austria:



Salzburg was recaptured through an assault that weakened the fort and the army marched onwards to begin a siege in Ober Osterreich which was one of the few Austrian cities still under Ottoman control. Salonica fell to our troops in the south and Macedonia was the next target whilst Dardania was captured and our troops were finally able to reach the islands of Naxos. The war was now definitely going our way.

Greek war:



Soon after this screenshot we defeated the Wallachia army in Kosovo and Macedonia was captured. The decision was taken to move the army south to begin a siege in Thrace. With a fort of 15000 Ottomans it would be a difficult fort to take however it also blocked Ottoman armies and their allies from moving north from the Bosphorus. The next months would be marked by Ajuuraan armies regularly being defeated in Thrace as our military technology advantage proved to be decisive. Naxos and Rashka were the next cities to fall to our armies. Interestingly the war in the north seemed to be going extremely well for our allies. No Austrian cities were under Ottoman control and Croatia had conquered a number of Hungarian provinces.

Thrace under siege:



Of course it was no real surprise to our leadership when our allies managed to waste away their gains. Croatia accepted peace with Hungary for gold when they may have been able to gain at least one province. Far worse was the peace that France accepted. France and Palatinate controlled 6 Ottoman cities including the mines of Tyrol and yet France accepted peace for 200 ducats. Finally they had won a war against the Ottomans but they could have gained so much more. It would be left to the Italians once again to conquer provinces from the Ottomans.

Our navy proved its worth in this war against the Ottomans. A slightly larger Ottoman fleet was defeated and over the course of the next months that fleet would be decimated. Ober Osterreich was the next province to fall to our troops and we began to demand the four Greek cities for peace. Our proposals were rejected and the war continued. Vidin was the next province to be captured and our army in Thrace defeated a similar sized Ottoman army to maintain the siege and the blockade. A second victory would be gained against another Ottoman army as our war score maxed out at 99. The Ottomans did offer a generous peace deal however it included a number of Slavonic provinces that we did not wish to gain and it did not include one of the Greek provinces.

Eventually the Ottomans were forced to accept our peace deal and we gained Macedonia, Achaia, Morea and Naxos. The peace treaty thoroughly established our presence in Greece and forced the Ottomans out of mainland Greece. Perhaps we should have pressed to gain Steiermark in the peace deal as well however the Italian leadership felt that we should let the Austrians try to take the province. The third Ottoman-Italian war had ended (Seventh war between Italy and the Ottomans) and the campaign to weaken the Ottomans in Europe had been a considerable success. The Hungarians were now land locked, Greece had been liberated from under Ottoman rule, no Italian provinces were under Ottoman rule and a new Catholic Balkan state had been created. The disappointment was that the Ottomans still held a number of cities in Europe.

Military: Our troops have proved to be a match for Ottoman troops and we now seem to be able to call on greater troop numbers. It is has been seen time and again throughout the campaign that the Ottomans fail to consistently build more troops. Perhaps they run out of cash? It is interesting to note that our fort in Lesbos was never placed under siege and neither were our Northern Baltic possessions. This left the Italians a little confused as taking these provinces would have been particularly easy for the Ottomans.

Technology: We now have a military technology level of 24 and seem to be a level ahead of the Ottomans. Moving our Navy/land slider towards land and our technology level has seemed to give our troops an edge in battles. This advantage has been most clearly seen against Ottoman allies. The Ottomans may well have been better off without bringing the African states into the war.

Diplomacy: We are still allied with France however our alliance is now a little more useful as Croatia and the Palatinate have direct borders with the Ottomans. Our bad boy rating has rose to around 33 which means that we have to constantly send gifts to France and Croatia.

Territory: We now control the Adriatic coast line and Hungary is now landlocked. We have expanded slightly in Germany by capturing Carniola however more importantly we have conquered several Greek cities which will benefit our nation significantly and has weakened the Ottomans.

Finances: Our finances have improved throughout the wars especially with the conquest of Greece. We can now expect to gain 350 ducats a year. Financing our armies has not been a problem with the cash flowing in even whilst at war without having to significantly raise tax rates. The only financial burden has been upgrading buildings in captured provinces and our colonies.

Italy in Europe:



I think this could be the end of the campaign unless the Ottomans decide that they want to go to war as there are no easy Greek provinces left to conquer. I dislike trying to conquer islands as the AI will often have large armies that are extremely difficult to defeat and it is reliant on my navy transporting troops.

Suggestions: 1) Increase your stability for bigger income=more money for armies.
2) Continue your campaign against Ottomans. I think they will declare war to you after ending peace treaty, so you should keep troops on their borders.
3) Try to get Austria on your alliance, or if you have 5 in your alliance, then just be friends fith them. Austria often has good tech level, so they can beat Otto in some battles and slow down their expansion.
4) Build troops in Crimea (I guess those few provinces in Crimea are yours). That could be surprising to Otto if you attack from there.