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Old Nov 06, 2006, 03:28 PM   #1
Blue Monkey
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Blue Monkey's Bharata Varsha Bazaar


transshipment of info and resources for CivFans regarding Greater India

One of my passions is the culture of India, from the Harappans and the Vedic Era through the Classical and Medieval periods (that’s everything pre-Muslim Invasions to me). In addition to research for my own yet to be started mod, I’ve been contributing to the Rise of Asia team, and posting comments in the threads about Anno Domini, Alexander’s Conquests, and elsewhere. There’s a lot of overlap between what’s being said in those places.

I’ve been encouraged enough to start this thread about the culture whose hegemony spread at one time from Afghanistan to the Philippines. While I’ll naturally concentrate on South Asia (what most people in the west think of as India, from Alexander til today), I’ll be including things about related cultures, such as Bactria, Tibet, and the “Indianized” states of SE Asia.

This thread is for the modding community to share discoveries and creativity. I’ll be posting links to historical info, graphics to inspire unit and pcx creators, maps, etc. I’ll do my best to track down answers to questions that anyone posts. I hope many of you will contribute as well. Be sure to let me know what to add here, for example do you want to see what relevant books I’ve got on my shelf, or what dvds and music are inspiring me?


This first post will evolve as an index to highlight key posts. There will also be various posts below that become nexus for specific categories. As any of these key posts are edited and added to I will also post a notice at the end of the thread.

Feel free to go ahead and post anywhen during this process, beginning right now. It will take me a while just to get the links I’ve bookmarked properly organized and posted here. That’ll be ongoing while I continue to work on the map and terrain for Rise of Asia and lobby on behalf of Bharata-Varsha in the various threads.

Links to Key Posts in this Thread
Maps (including resources, terrain, and city lists)
Units
Wonders large and small and City Improvements
Civs, Cultures, Tribes (including LH info)
General Info, Timelines, and History
Mahabharata / Kurukshetra War
Techs
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The Many Worlds of Steampunk : Dark Continent

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Old Nov 06, 2006, 03:30 PM   #2
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Maps (including resources, terrain, and city lists)

History of SE Asia site with an interactive map that changes century by century from Neolithic to 20th.

Three city lists are posted in response to a request by Madeira:

Mauryan Cities
Chola Cities
Indic-influenced Cities in Indonesia


A list of resources exported from the subcontinent.
A post with a list of incenses, including their geographical sources.
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The Many Worlds of Steampunk : Dark Continent

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Old Nov 06, 2006, 03:36 PM   #3
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Units

Attire
Info on clothing of general use for all units.General Military Info
Orders of Battle, etc.

An exemplary Indian army was called a Caturanga and had four divisions: Chariots, Elephants, Cavalry, and Infantry. Bowmen were found in all four divisions (ie on horseback, riding chariots, etc.). Skill as an archer was considered the essential skill for any warrior who wished to be a paragon, equivalent to the place of the sword for a samurai or a medieval European knight. Classical Indian chess has elephants where we today have bishops, and chariots where we have rooks. The head of an army, as well as a military man as the head of state was called a Senapati, sometimes with the prefix Maha- ("great").Arms & Armor
Archery held the same mystique in India that swordsmanship did for the Samurai; both Rama and Arjuna were renowned for their deadly aim and piercing strength of draw. Most sites emphasize blade weapons because they look so much prettier on the screen than an unstrung bow.Elephants
Elephants are one of the four divisions of a classical-era army. They are deployed and used differently than either chariots or cavalry.Naval
I'm still learning about classical-era ships. I do know that in general we should have triangular sailed ships, like dhows, or junks, rather than East India Company looking square riggers.Mythological Units
Everything from flying monkeys to nuclear planet busters is available for your modding pleasure within Indian myth.
  • Mythological Weapons & Units Includes a section laying out the various Astras - missile weapons of incredible destructive force.
  • The legendary Mahabharata Sword
  • Sadhus are sometimes featured in legends as having Jedi-like powers, and are called upon to fight the
  • Rakshasas and Asuras (two types of supernatural foes, which could be represented by some of the fantastic units already made by our fellow modders).
  • Indian folklore includes such things as an entire city of mechanical men. A steampunk-era mod certainly has room for an Indian version of the Land Dhow, or even the Sultanís Elephant.
Vimanas - Ancient Aircraft
If youíre open minded enough to include elements of fantastic India in your mod then you need to know about the Vimana (ancient Indian air/spacecraft) that were used to carry warriors and as a delivery vehicle for Astras of force comparable to modern nuclear weapons.Units already existing here at CivFans
Some of these are clearly not Indian - but they may be suitable substitutes, near-misses, or at least better placeholders than Firaxis has provided us.I know there are other units available I have yet to list. Feel free to point out any I should add.

Some suggestions for UUs for various civs related to greater India.

I also intend to post key images for archetypical Indian units in the near future. If you're thinking of making a unit related to India let me know and I'll happily post concept art for you.
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The Many Worlds of Steampunk : Dark Continent

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Old Nov 06, 2006, 03:39 PM   #4
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Wonders Large & Small and City Improvements

Hindu Temples in Cambodia (extensive images)
site on expedition to explore submerged temples near Mahabalipuram rediscovered following the recent tsunami. Sift through the image pages, there’s a few gems.
Espionage in Ancient India
Ancient Indian Sports
Tanks are a unique feature of Indian temples.

Image Galleries within this thread:
A post with an annotated list of Ancient Indian wonder suggestions.

An image gallery & brief discussion of Indian watermills.

A few civic improvement suggestions, in the context of Yoda Power's East Asia mod.
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The Many Worlds of Steampunk : Dark Continent

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Old Nov 06, 2006, 03:43 PM   #5
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Civs, Cultures, Tribes (including LH info)

The site is in Italian, but has great images of Tibetan Royal Costumes, some might be useful for units also.
A page on Srivijaya + Indian influence in the Philippines. A map and lots of images, but watch out for the Hindu Nationalist jingoism.

Pre-Pagan Burma, a lot of text, a few city scale maps, and architectural images.

Timeline of South and Southeast Asian Art History by the Metropolitan Museum of Art. Multiply hyperlinked to cultural/historical info, more detailed timelines and online exhibit info.
Brief texts on various Steppe Nomad cultures with king lists.

Harappans:
The Ancient Indus Civilization 1,141 illustrated pages by leading scholars of ancient India and Pakistan.

They used several agricultural techniques advanced for the ancient era. Obviously use the Harappan worker (could it serve as a UU? faster, with engineer skills?). Maybe free (of cost per turn) granaries (that also add +1 culture?) or early access to irrigation away from water access.

Their cities include the first urban sanitation system (sewer) in the world. Tanks (public or ritual baths) as a unique building would be good also (+ to culture/happiness). The Great Bath at Mohenjo-Daro (several pages of annotated slides) would be my choice for a Wonder. Here's a thumbnail gallery:


Another feature of the cities was their egalitarian structure. For example, there are no identifiable palace complexes, while there are public granaries, baths, assembly halls, master planning of roads and city layouts, etc., so early access to some democratic, republican, or at least oligarchic form of government would be appropriate. There is very minimal evidence of weaponry; they were probably a quite peaceful, friendly culture.


One of the more famous artifacts of the Harappans. His headdress includes an ornament similar to several pieces known as eye-beads, which are gold with a steatite inlay. The identification of this figure, commonly called "the priest-king", is in fact not known. However, it would be an excellent inspiration for a LH (maybe call him "First Citizen"), or advisor.

Archaeological evidence confirms widespread trade by the Harappans. One tech was extremely accurate weights and measures. Another possibility for a Wonder is the Harbor at Lothal, featuring one of the first known tidal locks.


Kushans:
The Kushan Empire was well known for its cavalry.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue Monkey View Post
Suggestions for UUs: ...Kushan Empire (Ashvaka/Spearman) = Ashvaka Lancer is a horse unit.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue Monkey View Post
Kushan units - a statue of Kanishka (note the stirrup like straps on the boots; maybe a model for the lancer unit?), drawings from bas-reliefs of two soldiers and a female guard:
I've recommended in several locations that, based on the Kushans' control of a major section of the Silk Road, the Giant Buddhas of Bamiyan (the World Heritage site destroyed by the Taliban) would be an appropriate Wonder for them. Bamiyan was a major resting point on the Silk Road journey, with caravanserais and camping sites near the Buddhas. Around the statues the cliff face features many caves and hand-cut dwellings for monks.

In their prime the larger of the two standing statues had a face of gold over a wooden frame. The head was hollow and worked as a giant megaphone through which monks would declaim the sayings of Buddha. At night the eyes, described as giant rubies, were back-lit by flames, creating the impression that Buddha's flickering glance was sweeping the valley. An even larger reclining Buddha was nearby, but is now lost (perhaps buried, but unlocated). If travellers' accounts are accurate it would have been the largest in the world. Records indicate that many travellers took a detour, or even made a special trip, just to enjoy the spectacle.


A post with a few LH & trait suggestions for related civs.
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The Many Worlds of Steampunk : Dark Continent

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Old Nov 06, 2006, 03:47 PM   #6
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Timelines ,History, and General Info

The 500-1500 AD page of a Timeline on South and Southeast Asian History.

Portal of Asian Internet Resources, sponsored by University of Wisconsin.

University of Evansville portal page to Ancient India Info.
Alamkara: 5000 Years of Indian Art
Life of Hinduism (academic cultural guide)
Internet Indian History Sourcebook (portal)
historical overview of India (host site is new-agey, but there are some good images)
Horace Mann Middle School Ancient India, well organized portal with many images
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The Many Worlds of Steampunk : Dark Continent

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Old Nov 06, 2006, 03:49 PM   #7
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Next to do:
Dozens more links to sort and post, figuring out which images and maps I've already downloaded to post here, and seeing what all of you want me to do.
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Old Nov 06, 2006, 04:02 PM   #8
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Mahabharata / Kurukshetra War

Determining date of Mahabharata events from astronomical evidence
Multipage introduction and synopsis (looks like text only)
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Old Nov 07, 2006, 04:23 AM   #9
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Wow! Thanks for this wealth of resources, Blue_Monkey!
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Old Nov 07, 2006, 07:49 AM   #10
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I may change my request in the unit lottery for something indian, we of the battlefield asia team should all pick a unit and vote for it in aaglo's lottery methinks..

What do you think Blue?
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Old Nov 07, 2006, 10:12 PM   #11
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@ SoG: Even more than a specific unit, a dhoti clothing/prop would be awesome. As to units, I'll focus on posting that stuff here next. Images as well as links.

@ Virote: That's maybe 10% of the links, I'm working to organize the rest; then there's also a selection of maps and other images to be posted.
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Old Nov 08, 2006, 01:14 PM   #12
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aaglo works with POVray(SP?). He doesn't use clothing/props, IIRC, as it's a text-based programme.
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Old Nov 11, 2006, 03:36 AM   #13
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I wanted to PM you about it, but since you got this thread up i'll ask here.
It might be a stupid question, but bare with me a bit since it's waaay out of my lead.

Are there any temples dedicated to the Trimurti and not just 1 god ? There probably are, but i couldn't find them.
Could you also provide some pics please ? (so i could make splashes out of them)
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Old Nov 11, 2006, 11:21 AM   #14
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Wow, that's very useful info! Thanks for posting this.
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Old Nov 12, 2006, 02:36 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heretic_Cata
Are there any temples dedicated to the Trimurti and not just 1 god ?
i'll have to research that, but I'm happy to do so.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heretic_Cata
Could you also provide some pics please ? (so i could make splashes out of them)
trying to keep the pics to a minimum so that I don't use up what upload space is available, but let me know if there's something specific you're looking for, and I'll hook you up.
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Old Nov 12, 2006, 02:58 AM   #16
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i'll have to research that, but I'm happy to do so.
Thank you.
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Originally Posted by Blue Monkey
trying to keep the pics to a minimum so that I don't use up what upload space is available, but let me know if there's something specific you're looking for, and I'll hook you up.
If you have them in your computer then you can use Imageshack to upload your pictures without wasting the upload space.

But i won't need more than 1 or 2 pictures tho.
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Old Nov 12, 2006, 02:24 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heretic_Cata
Are there any temples dedicated to the Trimurti and not just 1 god ? There probably are, but i couldn't find them.
According to The Hindu Temple ( a standard reference work) Brahma is a minor god (which only means he's not often represented in classical temples). And according to this site, Brahma suffers a curse that only allows him one temple. Hence no Trimurti temples.

On the other hand, Dattatreya is an avatar or incarnation of the Trimurti. Here are images of his temples - upper left a modern shrine, bottom left a temple in Ganagapur, Maharashtra. The three images on the right are of the Dattatreya temple at Bhaktapur in Nepal.
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Old Nov 13, 2006, 03:04 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue Monkey
According to The Hindu Temple ( a standard reference work) Brahma is a minor god (which only means he's not often represented in classical temples). And according to this site, Brahma suffers a curse that only allows him one temple. Hence no Trimurti temples.

On the other hand, Dattatreya is an avatar or incarnation of the Trimurti. Here are images of his temples - upper left a modern shrine, bottom left a temple in Ganagapur, Maharashtra. The three images on the right are of the Dattatreya temple at Bhaktapur in Nepal.
Wow, incarnation of the Trimurti Cool. Sounds perfect.
I like how the temple in Ganagapur looks. But i haven't been able to find a picture of it. (google finds is a 100x100) Do you have a bigger version of it ?
I could cut & strech the one in your pic tho ...
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Old Nov 13, 2006, 10:54 AM   #19
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This is the link I used. That 100x100 is a thumbnail. Click on the image and it should bring up a 400x278 version.
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Old Nov 13, 2006, 02:17 PM   #20
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Got it:
Spoiler:


Thanx for all your help Blue Monkey
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