An idea for expanding civics ... with matter !

Here is the mod of Aussie Lurker for expanding civics...

I hope that Rhye or Vishaing are interested

http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=3492

I feel that including this mod would be great !

Image personalizing civs with that ...

I've been looking at Aussie's Civic expander for a while now, however I have no intentions of merging the thing as he has it now, mainly because some of the categories in his mod have up to 7 civic options, and both Myself and I believe Rhye would like to stay with just 5, or at the very least, I would like each civic category to have the same number of options, and since Rhye is looking at 5 civics for the 'expansion/conquest' civic option, I would like to remain at five options per category. I have however been looking at some of the things he has done, and have been thinking of how to merge some of the civics to lower the number of civics needed. I will eventually update the civics for RFC++, however it won't be for this build, and it will mostly be my own ideas, though I will take many ideas from other mods.

Once I begin my 'civics balancer' I will post suggestions, ideas and ask for feedback in the RFC++ thread. So post all suggestions, for instance; KaNeaGE suggestions for the ecenomic civics will likely be in my civics balancer, although slightly alterred

Great news, Vishaing. I can see why you'd want to keep 5 options per category, but I like the extra categories. My only concern is how the bonuses from extra civics would affect the game. Would it change anything?

Call me biased , but as much as I don't mind 5 civics per category, I do find it annoying when my economics and government civics don't change for almost a quarter to a half of an entire game. In economics, Law and Government there simply isn't enough choice in the early game (and the opposite with religion and labour IMO). At the very least, feel free to use anything you like about my modcomp for your own mod-I would perosnally consider it an honour to have something of mine in Rhye's excellent mod .

EDIT: Oh and though I obviously prefer my phase 3, I feel Rhye's and Fall would benefit most from Civics Expander 2W, as it is much closer to the original Civics in many respects.
Also, even if you don't want extra civics per category, you might find my CivicInfosPlus mod very useful for increasing the flexibility in what each civic can do (like extra commerces and yields from buildings, state religion cities and the like).

Aussie_Lurker.

I suggested a new civic sytem a long time ago
(http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=182337)

but nobody seemed interessed in a new more realistic system.
There wasn't even a discussi. That's why Rhye isn't interessed in a new civic system.
It seems now more people are interseed in a change in the civics.

I never read your dieas before, (I think it was before I went double agent on civ 3 ) but they look good aswell...

@Aussie_Lurker: I know how you feel, I would like more civic choices too, and will likely make more civic choices once Rhye implements the Expansion/Colonization civic category. However until he does implement that category I don't want to force him to make any modifications to it. Honestly I don't know, I haven't really looked much at the Civics yet, still trying to find time to merge a pair of mods into RFC++. I'm definately looking at the civicsinfo plus for my civic expander, but I'm first going to try and expand it all without that to keep the mod simple.

@SadoMacho: I think I remember that, I also think I remember getting upset the entire discussion ended up being less about the civics and more about the Conquistadors.

After looking at your suggestions, I also remember now how much I loved them. I might have to cut a little bit out until Rhye has the new category up for me to ++ it however. Ultimately if cutting certain civics out becomes too complicated or difficult while still trying to keep balance, I might finally break down and just hope Rhye forgives me.

@Phallus: If the bonuses remain small enough or balanced with the only bonuses closely enough it shouldn't affect the balance of the overall game. Only testing will tell however, I assume I can count on your help

Perhaps we could start the discission for real this time :


Goverment
1. Despotisme (no change)
2. Oligarchy (+25%gold, hammers in capital)
tech: monarchy upkeep : low
3. Hereditary Rule (+1 gold from villages, towns,..)
tech: monarchy upkeep : low
4. 1party system (+10% mil. production, +2 from broadcasttower(propaganda), +1 jail)
tech : nationhood upkeep : middle
5. 2party system (+20% warw. hurry with gold)
tech:Constitution upkeep : low
6. multiparty system (+50% Warw, +1health(environmentalism-party), penalty for civ's without)
tech: Democracy upkeep : middle

Social
1.Barbarism no changes
2. Slavery (hurry by sacrifice population, +50% workerspeed, +1 food from plantations, +1 unhappy)
tech : bronzeworking upkeep : middle
3. Serfdom (+1 form castle, +1 from mil unit)
tech : Feudalism upkeep : middle
4. Caste System (1 free specialist per city, unlimited artist, priest, scientist)
tech : code of law upkeep : high
5. Liberalism : (+1 unhappy (poor people), +10% gold, +2 in largest cities
tech : liberalism upkeep : low
6. Socialism : (+100% great people, +10% science)
tech : communism upkeep : middle

Economy
1. Decentralization
2. closed economy : +1 hammer from farm
tech : metal casting upkeep : low
3. Mercantilism : (No foreign trade routes, unlimited mechants)
tech : banking upkeep : middle
4. Free market (+1gold/ spec., +1 trade route, +100% growth for cottage, hamlet, village)
tech : economy upkeep : low
5. state property : +1 food from farm, +1 gold from watermill, windmill, lumbermill)
tech : communism upkeep : high
6. Environmentalism : no change

military

1. Tribal organisation
2. Military Ordnance (+2 XP +1 from walls)
tech : Horseback riding upkeep : middle
3. Vassalage (number of free units, +25% production mil units (only mounted and samurai?, +3 XP)
tech : Feudalism upkeep : high
4. Professional Armies: (+1gold/ mil. unit, -25% Warw, +5 XP)
tech : gunpowder upkeep : low
5. Conscript armies : draft units, +2 XP, number of free untis
tech : Nationalism upkeep : middle
6. War Economy : -50% Warw, +25% production mil. Units, + 3XP, +2 from baracks
tech : assembly line upkeep : high

Religion

1. Nature religion (no state religion)
2. Paganism (+1 from obelisk, no state religion)
tech : mysticism upkeep : high
3. Organized Religion (unlimited priets, missionaries without monstary, +10% culture with state religion)
tech: priethood upkeep : middle
4. Theocracy : (+2XP, -10% science, +1 extra with state religion, +1 unhappy from non state religion, +2 culture from specialists)
tech : Divine right upkeep : high
5. Ateism : (+1 unhappy from non state religion, +10% science, +3 science from specialist, +1 from colloseum, no state religion)
tech : scientific methode upkeep : middle
6. Free religion : +1 from religions, +1 from colloseum, no state religion)
tech: liberalism upkeep : low

examples from reallity :

Roman republiek: 2, 2, 2, 2, 2
soviet union: 4, 6,5,4,5
USA (now): 5,5,4,4,6(or 4?)
mideviel Europe : 3, 3, 2,3, 3 or 4
Sweden (now): 6,6,4 (or6), 5(or4),6
UK (WWI) 5, 5, 4, 5, 6
France (Louis XIV) : 3, 3, 3, 4, 3

It will need some balancing, and maybe a revision for the military civics for Warlords.

How about a civic allowing food to be used to make military units like it does with workers?

I think that's possible, but i don't see any realistic civic that could use it.

Good point...

Well, Serfdom or Feudalism could use it. Think about it, the amount of food a city has is related to the number of farms which-in turn-is related to the number of peasants working that land. These peasants can then be 'drafted' in times of war. Its kind of a Feudal Levy representation.

Oh and, another change which I have made to civics-for what its worth-is that I have tried to eliminate the 'Emancipation is always better than Slavery' problem which I feel has crept into the civic system. Everything has a bonus-or two-and everything has a penalty. Sometimes general in nature, other times situational!

Aussie_Lurker.

I've been thinking about the foodthing : war economy could use it. It symbolizes the so called lost generation of a nation at war (like during WWI). The city doesn't grow when building units, it's like soldiers being killed before the heave children.

Oooh I like it! This sounds like a good idea...

It looks like we are the only ones that like new civics, there isn't mush reaction.

I like it, I like it a lot! I'm just waiting until I have a complete set of civic proposals to actually come and suggest things and ask for feedback. Please keep discussing, as when I put the new civics into RFC++ I'm going to use this thread as the basis for all of my changes.

Also however, to help me get ideas, I ask for the following considerations. I would like to keep to the current civic categories (which is a shame because I really liked the millitary category ideas, and I would also like to keep to 5 civic choices for now, so if you could try to stay within that it would be very helpful. However, SadoMacho's ideas are so balanced and well though out I wouldn't have much opposition to going to 6 choices.

So does that mean you want to stick to a 5x5 grid? If so, then for Government, might I suggest removing either representation or Universal Sufferage, and replacing it with a single Democratic government civic. Then, you would have room to put an Oligarchy government civic-to give people an option between Despotism and Hereditary Rule (which, btw, should be called Monarchy IMO). Oligarchy represents your 'pseudo-democratic' governments of Classical times-like the Greek Councils and their Plebiscites or the Roman Patrician Senate. The benefits of Oligarchy should probably be bonus gold from specialists (like the extra science from specialists under Representation), and maybe +2 happiness from either Colloseum or Theatre.

For what it's worth, I would also change the effects of Monarchy. The Happiness from military units effect would be better represented by a legal or military civic-like Martial Law, IMO. Instead, Monarchy should grant some kind of culture bonus in cities-either from specialists or per city in general (alternatively, you could have a bonus to gold and/or culture in the capital alone). Another thought is to give bonus happiness (+2) from Castles, though then you would really need to make castles available a bit earlier in the game.

As for Legal civic options, if you are going to have a seperate Military category, then I would probably move vassalage there. Then, with the free spot, you could add an Ecclesiastic Law civic, a Martial Law civic or a Jurisprudence civic. Basically something to 'fill the gap' which currently exists in the law throughout the Classical age.

With the Labour civics, your key problem is that Emancipation is too good, and slightly redundant (what is Emancipation except the absence of slavery/serfdom?) If you ask me, this could be replaced by a later game labour civic-like Unionism or Organized Labour. Economic civics suffer from the same problem as Government and Legal civics-i.e. nothing to do in the Classical age. It would be nice if you could add in some kind of Cash Economy civic between Decentralization (call that Barter instead) and Mercantilism. The only problem is what should it replace? All the others deserve to be there IMO! Oh, and I feel like Mercantilism and State Property are partly the wrong way round. Mercantilism should have the reduced Distance Maintenance (it was the economic theory behind 18th century Colonialism, and State Property should have the Free Specialist instead (state promotion of specialisation). Oh and I am beginning to feel that Environmentalism is overpowered, with the health bonus being way to high.

Religion is pretty good as is, with a relatively healthy spread of civics across the eras, though something to fill the gap between Pacifist and Free Religion might have been nice.
Oh and, as I said before, feel free to download my CivicInfosPlus modcomp if you want more flexibility in designing the civics.

Aussie_Lurker.

might I suggest removing either representation or Universal Sufferage,

Click to expand...

Just a quick comment to say I couldn't agree more with this. There's no sense in making Representation and Universal Suffrage mutually exclusive.

Actually I'll broaden it slightly since I agree with all of Aussie's suggestions.

Me too actually, I scim read it only, but it looks pretty good...

I have chosen 6 civics because i read one the 6 would still fit in the background. More then 6 is a bit to mush, IMO. Less is more, that's the spirit of RFC, isn't it.