Ah, the nostalgia....

After telling the story of me joining CFC in another thread, I remembered my first game after joining CFC... I could barely remember it, so I took some of my old CDs (I had to clean up all my Civ3 saves, as I had hundreds of them, but I didn't just delete them, I put them in 2 CDs). It was a standard world, every setting normal, and random civ. The civ proved to be Rome. I managed to get control of my continent, so I'm clearly biggest in size.

I want you experienced civvers to comment on my save. I'm very sorry, but it was the only one I could find. I would love a save from 2 turns before, or better 20 turns before if possible! Unfortunately I have to do with this one. Could you please give me some advice for this game?

Please note: this was my very first Monarch game, and I jumped directly from Chieftain, without trying any other difficulty first! So it's full of newbie mistakes.

Some clear mistakes, that I noticed myself:
- I need way more workers. I have lots of cities and only a few workers. Most of my cities (except those who were newly conquered from Egypt, the civ that I used to share my continent with) are connected with a road, but I'm far from roading all tiles and I have only very few rails.

- I was at war with Egypt, and all my cities were rioting. I remember I didn't know that the unhappiness comes from war, and I thought it was the government, Republic, that was causing them. So I switched to Monarchy, which was a stupid decision since I didn't really have much wars in the last 150 years.

- unorganized attack (I'll explain later what I mean)

- am behind in tech. Not sure how far behind, as the only techs I can research right now are "The Corporation" and "Scientific Method", but the Greeks, Babs and Persians already have them, and I can't say for sure how many techs they have besides this ones...

- when France managed to settle 3 cities on the island above my continent, which was mainly Roman (with about 12 cities of mine, I have to check the save), they started pumping troops there. I could see each turn some galleons moving and bringing rifles and sometimes even cavs. So I did the most idiotic thing. I was in good relations with Greece, and I signed an MPP with them. It did have the effect that I expected, but the side effects were clearly not worth it. So the French did retire their troops from that island, and I did manage to take their 3 cities, having the whole island mine, but Greece conquered 1/3 of France, and then it allied also with Persia against France. I have to point out that Greece and Persia are the most powerful nations in the world, though the power graphs shows me twice as powerful as them. After some turns, France is reduced to an OCC, and they are in the state of 2CC in my save. This means that Greece and Persia gained a lot of easy cities, which made those two powerful civs even more powerful. Also there will be another horrible effect. I started a war with the Iroquois, and got 3 cities from their island of 12. However I was forced to raze the last one, and they built another one there. So now I own a part of the Iroquois' island. But guess what: if you end the turn in my save, when the MPP has JUST ONE TURN 'till it expires, the Iroquois attack Greece. So I'm forced in a hopeless war with them. They are way too busy with Greece to attack me, but I'll lose those two cities that were so difficult to gain... Of course, I could abandon them right now and try to take my units out of their
islands (I have two cavs remaining and a leader). Tell me what to do about this.


Problems:
The Greeks and the Iroquois have a really really really really strong navy. I've never seen something like this below Demigod. This could be a serious problem, considering that my navy consists of two Galleons and some few other primitive ships. I see Ironclads everywhere! (this was started in Vanilla, so Ironclads were not a separate tech).

All my enemies' lands are well improved, when I have basically no infrastructure.

All my enemies have lots of Riflemen and Cavs are not doing great against them. Tanks will come at the end of this age, but I have to be careful that the Greeks or Persians don't get more!!


History:
The "other" continent was shared by the Persians, Greeks, Babylonians, French and Indians. The Persians were strongest, and Indians weakest. The Persians were so strong and the indians were so weak that when the Persians declared war on the Indians it took them 5 turns to finish them off. The Indians had 4-5 cities, from which 3 are at Persia and 1 at Babylon. So the Persians, apart from their core in the south, have 3 cities in the middle of the continent (India was landlocked). Then, when I did that stupid move with the MPP, and after the Greeks declared war to the French, the Greeks won a lot of good cheap cities and they now have more land than the Persians, though the Persians have still highest score. It's hard to estimate the armies of the two. The Babs have never been very expansionist, so they are pretty small (about the size of the Iroquois). But Babylon is size 20 and they have MANY cities above 12! I think they have huge cultural potential. BTW, from a peace deal with France, I got an abandoned ex-Indian city near the other continent. It is size 1 and really corrupted, but could be used as a base if I ever get to attack the other continent.

Good things:
I have most land area, clearly. Though the Greeks, after conquering France, gained much.
I have resources, pretty much everything. I'm sure I won't miss the oil either, as I have pretty much every type of terrain and a big land area
I am shown as the most powerful in the power graph, I do have a lot of Cavs, but I don't know if I could take a civ down soon.





Conclusion:
Please, could you give me some advice about what to do? I would really like to win this game, and I do feel I could by myself but I'd like to be sure, as the situation is not great right now (it's not bad either, though). I'd like to know what I should do next, what steps would be good for me now. My dream is to conquer the Iroquois, conquer the Babs, thus getting a foothold on the other continent, then take the central ex-Indian cities of Persia, then take down Persia, and at the end Greece. Also note when I started this I was a below Monarch player, a very talented Chieftain, maybe even warlord or regent. While now I have no trouble with a not great Emperor start, just a little trouble with a normal start at Demigod, and have some trouble with Deity (though I feel I can win it, I never get very addicted in Deity games, it's more like work than civ with all the micro-management and stuff you need to do). THE YEAR IS 1420 AD.


Screenshots
Here's the original, unedited minimap:


And here it is explained:


The red circle surrounds the cities lost by the indians, from which 3 to the Persians and 1 to the Babs. The black circle is surrounding cities lost by France in the current war. The gray circle is my apparently useless city on an island near the other continent. You can see the two Iroquois cities that I'll probably lose next turn (or abandon them this turn).


Save Game:
<<<The Save>>>

If you have any problems with it try loading it in Vanilla...

A) I'm pretty sure you can win this on your own, but what the heck - I can't keep opinions to myself...

Just from looking at your comments and minimaps:

If you can hold that "useless" city on the other continent, do so. That will be your start point for invasion.

It sounds like you need to regroup, do some infrastructure and growth. Might want to revolt back to republic (pain in the ass, I know), but under republic and being commercial, you'll be the tech soon enough.

Large navies of ironclads aren't a huge problem once you can build destroyers. The AI sucks at using large navies - they tend to send a galleon and 3 ironclads. So, with a couple of destroyers, you can just shadow them, bombard them down, then eventually attack. They won't bombard or attack or do anything that makes any sense. Also, having cannon (and then artillery) that you can get to whereever they will attack will make it so you can bombard them from land, then attack so they don't come back.

Getting the AI's on that continent into war will help a lot - they will drop out of republic or democracy or whatever they are in.

Mainly, I think you have 10-30 turns of consolidation and catching up in tech, building some forces (galleons/artillery/transports) and then probably picking on either greece or persia and wiping them out.

Mirc, I'm looking at your save right now. I don't know as I'd bother completing a vanilla game like this. Some things I've noticed...

You have a Great Military Leader, Hadrian, in Tayendanaga which seems likely will fall to the Iroquois next turn, and no boat close enough to pick him up and take him back to your main continent. I guess you could build an instant barracks with him, because your cav needs to heal, but I think the Iroquois will take you down before the rax can help.

You have about 5 cavalary and 34 warriors??? and 58 spearmen?!?!?! You really need to upgrade your military.

Your own continent is wayyyy underdeveloped and needs lots of cities built to use the land you already have. If this were C3C, I'd suggest building up and turning some of your land into science farms, but in vanilla a scientist only produces 1 beaker.

I think this game is great for the nostalgia value, remembering how far you've come since then, but good luck with winning it now. If you do continue, keep us posted on how it goes.

I've only looked briefly using civassist but I notice that you haven't built the FP anywhere. If you can get another GL and can take him to safety, build your FP in a corrupt area to create a second core. Vanilla is completely different to C3C in this respect and this second core will make a massive difference to your income and production. Not only will the FP city have minimal corruption, town around it will have similar levels of corruption to towns around your capital. Specialists are not too effective in vanilla/PtW but the effects of the FP make up for much of this.

Thanks everyone for the comments! I'll play some more this evening.

@AT: I know that city could be of some value if I manage to get my forces organized and attack the other continent.

@gmaharriet: I know there are huge problems with this game. I'll have to think what I have to do with each city, and with each unit. I have way too many spears and my continent is very unimproved, I'll need to produce a lot of workers, I have only a small group of them and I have a lot of cities. And yes, I think unfortunately the leader will be lost in 2 turns. It would have been great if I was before Education, I would have rushed the GL and catch up in tech, then abandon the city. But Education is one era before...

@Tone: I am building already the FP in Heliopolis, but I have no idea why I was building it there, it's two cities away from the capital. I probably didn't know what the FP does.

Great!!! I had a brilliant idea. I gifted the two Iroquois cities to France! This way, my leader got teleported safely to Rome, and I recovered my 2 cavs and 2 workers from that island, and the Iroquois are not at war with France, so they won't attack their cities (they are anyway way too busy with Greece right now). France has just signed a peace treaty with Greece. This means that they would have been in OCC if I hadn't gifted the two ex-Iroquois cities. Now they have 3 cities. This means that any time I need the two cities, I can just go there and take them from France which is hopeless! And also considering that they have just 3 cities, if I bring troops to their cities (like 5-7 cavs or Infantries should be enough) I can threaten them and take anything I want from them. This means that if they are going to recover in techs (which AIs seem to be doing very easy) I'll just take all their techs for a peace deal, so for free!! I find this a great move, maybe greatest I've done in this game!

And BTW, I built 11 workers in one turn. I have 17 workers, and I need about 50. I don't know if I'll be able to build them all in 30 turns (I thought 30 turns would be a good self-imposed limit to regroup). A lot of my size 2-3 cities were building temples or libraries and I switched them all to workers even if I was wasting like 30 shields, as I wasn't going to wait 47 turns for that cities to finish a temple!

I also ordered most my unnecessary spears, warriors, and even archers and horsemen to go to Rome and in 1 turn I got 10 units there. I estimate there are at least 20 useless spears and warriors hanging around in my cities, and I'll bring them all to my core and disband them to help production of units and to stay out of the limit for upkeep. I just discovered I have a rubber source right near one of my cities (near the core), which is not connected! And I was struggling to build a harbor in a 2 shield city to get the rubber from the island at the north!

I can't wait to have Cavs, Infantries, Artillery, and if I catch up in techs even Tanks!!

Mirc said:

Great!!! I had a brilliant idea. I gifted the two Iroquois cities to France!

And BTW, I built 11 workers in one turn.

I also ordered most my unnecessary spears, warriors, and even archers and horsemen to go to Rome

I can't wait to have Cavs, Infantries, Artillery, and if I catch up in techs even Tanks!!

Click to expand...

I can't wait either, Mirc!!! Be sure to tell us about it.

You've had some great ideas here...things I would not have thought of. As much as I love this game, I'm not really very good at strategy. Good for you.

good plan on the gifting. I often find myself abandoning cities that I'm going to lose anyway, to keep from the war weariness... gifting is good.

You going to use the leader for an army? or for the FP?

30 turns of infrastructure is good.... but take what it needs. You can be pretty sure that the AI is ahead of you in tech... but you can't tell just how far ahead. You have espionage... can you set up some spies, see when they get destroyers/tanks?

I'd need the agency for that... But it could be a good idea. I really don't think they have destroyers, I've seen lots and lots of Ironclads and Frigates, but nothing else.

Edit: For investigating a city I need just an embassy, but if I don't see any Tanks in cities it doesn't mean they don't have at all, though I really doubt that they have...

gmaharriet said:

I can't wait either, Mirc!!! Be sure to tell us about it.

You've had some great ideas here...things I would not have thought of. As much as I love this game, I'm not really very good at strategy. Good for you.

Click to expand...

Thanks, I'll sure post here about how the game evolvs...

Quick update: I have 7 units over the limit of support, but I brought 27 totally useless units right next to Rome so I can disband them anywhere in the core for some shields. The most annoying part is going to be improving the tiles. I don't know which tile to improve first, there are so many! It's so hard to decide what to begin with...

well, probably the fastest way to do it is to have a bunch of workers roading tiles one at a time, and have bands of 2, 4 or 6 workers going around from roaded tile to roaded tile, mining or irrigating. That way, you use the fewest worker turns, as well as up your commerce, which gets your science up.

other thing you could do is send your galleon over along with an explorer and see what units fly by

OK. I started posting something yesterday, but power went off for a second and it restarted my computer. I felt very sick and it was late so I didn't write anything.

But here is what I was going to write:

I am doing pretty good in regrouping, but I do have some problems.
I had 6 workers in 1420, and I have 29 in 1450. This is a pretty impressive jump, I think. I have to road, mine/irrigate and railroad every tile in my core in a pretty short amount of time, if I want to catch up with the rest of the civs. Only after this I'm going to set my workers to clean the jungles in the north of my continent and road/railroad every ex-Egyptian city.

I just noticed Persia doesn't have Scientific Method!

I'm having problems catching up in techs. My GPT stays the same, but I have been building lots of new units (workers) in the last couple of turns. So it does go up a little. But I have a problem! I remember I was running on 0&#37; research, and when I got to about 800 gold I was buying a tech from another civ, and from running at 0% research I got to 800 gold in about 7 turns, so I was "researching" pretty well. But now everything is different! I got to 900 gold, and every civ that has the corporation or scientific method has no interest in trading with me! My Foreign advisor tells me "I doubt that they will accept this deal" even if I try to sell all my gold! And I am playing on 0% research for about 6 turns now, and I don't want to reload, as I'm not cheating at civ anymore, though I used to do this when I started this game (actually until 10 AD, when I got to 10 AD or so I realized I was doing something wrong and stopped). What should I do now? I do have a way out, but I don't know if it's a good idea: the Babylonians are weakest (military power) except French and Iroquois (that were recently in a disastrous war with either Greece, Persia or both), however they have 1 size 20 city (Babylon), 1 size 14 city (Ashur), 1 size 13 city (I forgot its name), and 3 size 12 cities. And investigating some of them, they are defended by just 2 riflemen and many catapults! Cav armies sweep through cats and 2 rifles! And they are the tech leaders. So if I would be able to take 4-5 big cities from Babylon, I could then ask for techs in a peace deal. The problems are: I'll have to build the Military Academy in Rome (takes about 10 turns). I'll have to build lots of Cavs (not a real problem if I manage to improve all my core tiles, especially considering that Thebes is size 11 and growing, that I have some ex-Egyptian cities close to my core with great lands, and that I have Veii size 10 at the shores of the ocean (now producing Galleons), and that Rome can produce 1 Cav every 3 turns, and it's still not fully railroaded, and size 13 and growing. I'll also have to build lots of naval units, preferably transports and destroyers, but if not, at least Galleons and Destroyers, and this should be a problem if I transport everything to Hyderabad, the ex-Indian city on an island right near a big gulf full of prosperous and not great defended Babylonian cities, and I can declare war after I have lots of armies in Hyderabad (which, being placed at the tip of the island, is great for an invasion).

I think I should upload a save, to ask for the opinion of the more experienced players, but for now I don't have access to my saves. I'll do it later today. What do you think about the current situation, based on my comments?

You can get it with GPT, either, or luxuries?

My guess is that you need some more infrastructure time - try using the 999 trick to see what everyone is making in GPT and how it compares to you. It's only 1450 - you are only about 1/2 through the time in the game, so there is plenty of time to catch up. It probably makes sense to build maybe 50-70 more workers to get all the work done. More workers are always good. Having more than you need is not a bad thing, cause you can always add them back to your metros



I would recommend roading and irrigating/mining, then railing. at least get every citizen working an improved tile before railing.

Did anyone finish the Theory of Evolution yet? Maybe you can switch the forbidden palace build to ToE if it's been working on it long enough?

I might try the game since I'm part of the minority that only has vanilla...

EDIT: I've looked at the save; did you notice Rome was just 1 tile away from an Iron Works city? Someone's been neglecting sacrifices to the RNG...

I pick this up over the weekend and played 41 Turns.
I did lone sci research on Sci Method.
Opening:
AS for the Severely lacking Workers most cities were changed to a Worker and a few Settlers.
I Gave the two Iroq cites to French. Used the leader for the FP in a new Core.
Notice Several Egyptian and French Cites were still resisting.
I notice just about every major city was lacking a Market Thus all the Happy issues and the need for MP's. All these cities just off one tile from being on river forced me to make Aqueducts as needed too. The most needed ones got markets Short Rushed and Rushed where app. Switched Rome to CIA for spies. After those builds Libs.

After I got Peace Deal with Iroq. I switched to Demo. For the worker speeds.
When I got To Demo I disbanded all the Reg. Troops (lots of Spear and Warriors) to speed up production In the Few towns that actually had Barracks I made Inf. the rest Made Arty if not on an improvement.
Traded some cash and Ivory to the Babs for Corporation.
Later Stole Refining from Babs then Traded that to Persian for Steel.
Attempted Spy plant of Greece started a War. Strictly defensive Had to Surrender Hyberbad to the Greece VIA gift to Babs.
On turn 41 Sci Method came in sold it to Iroq. Stole Combustion from Babs. Sold it to Persia for AT and now only down Electronics to Greece, Persian and Babs. Up Refining and AT on Iroq. France was Eliminated early on.
15 Vet Inf. 10 Mixed Cavs and 30 Arty. 2 Ironclads and One Galleon.
2 Solid Cores up and Railed and mined. Still needed a few Barracks. Just started in on the Jungle area. North Island was railed and Irrg. and ready for Sci Farms. I was using them as Taxs farms while on Single Sci.

One thing I did not try yet. I notice all the Warriors but no Legionaries anywhere which made me wonder if there had been a GA.
As for the War with Greece they Land Troops I ping all them down and Elites Cavs would finish the job but I wasn't getting any leaders. I would also ping down the Ironclads and Send My two Lone Clads out to finish the job and return to port I was able to Kill about 20 Greek Ironclads doing this it was a nightmare with all the clads dinging me but after awhile they slowed down.
Making about 450GPT with Lux at 10&#37; Sci at 0% Could do a safe steal every 6 turns at this rate. I didn't do this early on because these was a lot of infrastructure to rush as well. Still have not been able to plant the Spy in Greece either.

lurker322 said:

Did anyone finish the Theory of Evolution yet? Maybe you can switch the forbidden palace build to ToE if it's been working on it long enough?

I might try the game since I'm part of the minority that only has vanilla...

EDIT: I've looked at the save; did you notice Rome was just 1 tile away from an Iron Works city? Someone's been neglecting sacrifices to the RNG...

Click to expand...

In the save I posted at the beginning, nobody did. But few turns after, Babylon builds it.

JJJSpider said:

I pick this up over the weekend and played 41 Turns.
I did lone sci research on Sci Method.
Opening:
AS for the Severely lacking Workers most cities were changed to a Worker and a few Settlers.
I Gave the two Iroq cites to French. Used the leader for the FP in a new Core.
Notice Several Egyptian and French Cites were still resisting.
I notice just about every major city was lacking a Market Thus all the Happy issues and the need for MP's. All these cities just off one tile from being on river forced me to make Aqueducts as needed too. The most needed ones got markets Short Rushed and Rushed where app. Switched Rome to CIA for spies. After those builds Libs.

After I got Peace Deal with Iroq. I switched to Demo. For the worker speeds.
When I got To Demo I disbanded all the Reg. Troops (lots of Spear and Warriors) to speed up production In the Few towns that actually had Barracks I made Inf. the rest Made Arty if not on an improvement.
Traded some cash and Ivory to the Babs for Corporation.
Later Stole Refining from Babs then Traded that to Persian for Steel.
Attempted Spy plant of Greece started a War. Strictly defensive Had to Surrender Hyberbad to the Greece VIA gift to Babs.
On turn 41 Sci Method came in sold it to Iroq. Stole Combustion from Babs. Sold it to Persia for AT and now only down Electronics to Greece, Persian and Babs. Up Refining and AT on Iroq. France was Eliminated early on.
15 Vet Inf. 10 Mixed Cavs and 30 Arty. 2 Ironclads and One Galleon.
2 Solid Cores up and Railed and mined. Still needed a few Barracks. Just started in on the Jungle area. North Island was railed and Irrg. and ready for Sci Farms. I was using them as Taxs farms while on Single Sci.

One thing I did not try yet. I notice all the Warriors but no Legionaries anywhere which made me wonder if there had been a GA.
As for the War with Greece they Land Troops I ping all them down and Elites Cavs would finish the job but I wasn't getting any leaders. I would also ping down the Ironclads and Send My two Lone Clads out to finish the job and return to port I was able to Kill about 20 Greek Ironclads doing this it was a nightmare with all the clads dinging me but after awhile they slowed down.
Making about 450GPT with Lux at 10% Sci at 0% Could do a safe steal every 6 turns at this rate. I didn't do this early on because these was a lot of infrastructure to rush as well. Still have not been able to plant the Spy in Greece either.

Click to expand...

Wow, seems great. But I told you this game was started when I was a total noob, and I didn't know exactly what I was doing. And it was more than an year ago so I forgot whether there had been a GA or not. I think I had a GA, but I'm not very sure. I think I remember fighting against the Egyptians with Legionaries, but maybe I didn't...

Thanks for posting how your game went, I'll probably use most of your moves in my game too. BTW could you post a save from your game, just to compare with mine? True, I've played just 6 turns, which means nothing, but I'll play more, when I'll have time.

Mirc I know you’re a good player now. I also meant the post as NOT a slight to your skills now but how too possible to turn the game around. I know you wanted to go in a different direction with more war. I think I tried a more peaceful approach.
I read some of your SG you participated in and learned a great deal from those games myself. I know my first games we very poorly played. But hey we all get better! 9 months ago I went from barley winning on Chieftain then I found this site. And I have beaten it on deity now. I got the Civ Vanilla as a hand me down from a friend, now I just need to upgrade it.
I needed a little challenge (few hours) that I could do for the weekend without starting a new game myself which I didn’t have the time for(my Wife).
Unfortunately I don’t have saves of turns 40 or 41. I felt caught up and didn’t feel the need to continue (sorry I wasn’t emotionally attached to it.) But I do have a save from when I became a Demo gov that I will post when I get home from work.

EDIT: The Demo Emerge just happened to be turn Twenty who knew.
SAVE View attachment Caesar of MIRC, 1520 AD.SAV

Thanks for the save JJJ.

I'm sorry to bump this thread without an update, but I might have some time to play this these days. And I need your advice on something.

I played a long time on 0&#37; research, and trading from the Persians/Greeks for techs. It was faster than I'd do myself. For about 500 gold, I got a tech. And I had about 80-90 gpt if I don't research. And normally, I'd get a tech in minimum 10 turns, so it was profitable.

However, nobody wants to trade for Scientific Method and The Corporation. I got to over 900 gold, but still nobody wants to trade this, though Greece is gracious to me (we had that awful MPP signed when I was still a noob). If I research at 80%, I get a tech in about 10 turns. And to get to Destroyers and Transports, I'd need 4 techs. And in 40 turns, my gold would finish, since I am running at -25 and have 890 right now. So it will take even more, it would take me about 45 turns.

I have two options right now. Please tell me, which one do you think is better?

My plan is clear, whichever of those options you think is good, I'm going to start a war with Babylon, when I'm ready (which could happen sooner or later, read the options), as they are very advanced, have huge cities (many over size 12), and have Pikemen and Riflemen in their cities. My cavs, artys and armies of cavs will take care of those easily, and I'll get all their techs for peace. My rep is already doomed thanks to the idiotic MPP that forced me to declare war right after I made peace. So I won't care about this, I'll leave them in one city, demand the 2 techs that block me, then declare war again, let them a little, and attack again in a few turns, to scare them. Then I'll make peace and demand techs again. This is because I can't ask for techs without the prequirsites, so I'll demand the techs "one by one" (actually about two by two). Another advantage for attacking Babylon is that I have a city (Hyderabad) on an island, right near Bab territory (it's so close that I'm afraid it might even flip), and having a place to start the invasion is great, especially because a Transport could actually go to Bab territory, disembark my troops and get back in one turn, so I won't need as many naval defense for my Transports.

Option 1: Start researching on 80%. Keep in mind this is Vanilla so science farms are not that effective, though I do have faraway cities. If I do this, in about 45 turns I'd get to the tech that allows Destroyers and Transports. If I do this, I'll have time to fully improve my territory, as I already have 40 workers (after not many turns since I had 7). In this case, yes, in maximum 5 turns I'll get all the Destroyers and Transports I need, I'm sure of this! Sounds good, but can I afford waiting 50 more turns? I'm afraid my enemies will get Tanks by then........ It's true if I beat Babylon, which is not as hard as Greece or Persia, I'll get the techs for Tanks from them, so it'll be OK, but what if they have loads of Tanks? It's a great risk.

Option 2: Continue on 0%. I'll get thousands of gold really fast, which means a lot of money for upgrade, and after I beat Babylon and become as advanced as the others, I'll have a lot to spend on research. But... This means I'll have to attack without Destroyers and Transports. The Babs don't have a great fleet, but they have some Ironclads. So I'll have to build some too. Also, Transports have capacity of 8, while the best capacity I can get without them is 3. This means I'll have to build almost three times as many transporting units for the same number of land units. And this is even worse than it seems: the only productive naval city I have is Veii! This means all the naval units are going to need to be built by one city! Hispalis has huge potential (is size 6 but has an Aqueduct, and it has only Grasslands and Coasts near it, with a harbour it will have more than it needs), but it's going to need massive improvements as it only has 2 roaded tiles in its radius, and it needs some time to grow.
Advantages: I'll have thousands of gold for upgrading and researching at the end of all this, while in option 2 I'd have close to 0. Also it won't take me 50 turns to do this, probably.
Disadvantages: I'll have to fight without Destroyers and Transports, thus needing almost 3 times as many transport ships, and considering I have only 1 productive naval city, it could be bad. Also it'll be much more difficult to transport Cavs from my continent after the first, big, invasion, and a reinforce on a SoD can be extremely useful. It'll be more difficult because my units have a lower movement rate, and can transport less, so I'll have to base my invasion pretty much only on the first force I bring, because it might take about 10 turns to bring reinforcements. And I assume that I'll have time to improve my territory so I can build at least 2 Cavs a turn, on my continent. Otherwise, no reinforcements at all.


Thoughts?