Culture Mechanics Disassembled

DerangedDuck

Chieftain
Joined
Jun 3, 2007
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(Please note that all information given here is in regards to Vanilla Civ 1.61. It is probably unchanged in Warlords and the as yet unpublished Beyond the Sword expansion, but I have no way of being certain.)
(Also note that the following information will generally refer to normal speed games, unless otherwise noted. For games played on the Epic, Marathon, or Quick settings, some numbers listed below may be scaled somewhat.)

There are several different values associated with culture in Civilization 4.
First of all, there is the 'City Culture'. City culture actually affects only one thing: the city's cultural level and thus cultural radius. The city's cultural level and cultural radius start at '1'. When city culture reaches 10, the cultural level goes up to '2'. At 100, it goes up to '3', at 500 it reaches '4', at 5000, it reaches '5', and finally at 50,000 city culture it jumps up to '6', called "Legendary culture". Get 3 cities of level 6 and you win a cultural victory. Also note that a city actually has a cultural value and cultural radius for every player in the game. However, unless a player has actually owned a city at some point, their culture for that city is zero. If they are not the current owner of the city, their city culture will have zero impact on the game. City culture never goes away unless the city is destroyed, or the civilization to whom the culture belongs is destroyed.

Of course you were probably already familiar with 'City culture'. If not, you may need to actually go out and buy a copy of Civ 4 and play the game.

There is also a less accessible culture value, which I will call the 'plot culture'. Every square/tile/plot/whatever in the game also has a cultural value for every single player. You can't ever see the exact value, but it's not totally invisible. On the city screen, the relative values of 'plot culture' for various players are shown in the city screen if you point the mouse at the 'nationality' bar. If you point the mouse cursor at a square near a city, the %nationality of the plot owner(but nobody else) is shown.
The main effect of plot culture is to determine whose civilization controls that particular plot of land. A civilization will own a plot, if at least one of its cities has that plot within its cultural radius, and if their plot culture is greater than any other civilization that has that plot within one of their cities' radii. Note that they have to actually own the city. If they built some culture in a city, but later lost control of that city, that city won't allow them to control any of the surrounding tiles. However, the culture that the city spilled onto the surrounding tiles might allow another of their cities to control those tiles. The exception to all this is plots containing cities. The city and the plot underneath will remain under the control of whoever founded or last conquered it, regardless of underlying culture. However, if the calculated cultural owner is different from the city owner (in other words, some other city, belonging to a different player has the plot within its cultural radius, and they have more culture on that plot), there is a chance of the city revolting and changing sides. We'll go into revolts in more detail later. Finally, note that plot culture can never ever be gotten rid of, except in a couple of circumstances. Firstly, if you give away a city, you lose all plot cultire in the city square and surrounding 8 squares. Secondly, if you completely obliterate a civilization, their plot culture goes away. Still, if a civilization owns no cities in an area, their culture won't have any effect except to alter the displayed nationality of squares in the region and to cause a small amount of unhappiness in cities who "long to join the motherland".

You are probably wondering now where all these cultural values are coming from. The city culture is pretty easy, since the city screen clearly shows what all the sources of culture are. All the various temples, libraries, specialists, culture from the cultural slider, and culture from production are added up and then multiplied by the bonuses given by cathedrals, wonders, civics, and so on. This value, sometimes called CPT(Culture Per Turn), is added to the city's culture each and every turn. If this gives the city enough culture to increase it's cultural level and radius, these will also be increased.
The city's CPT is also added to the plot culture of every plot within the city's cultural radius, regardless of ownership or presence or absence of other cities. However, there's an added factor based on the city's cultural radius. If the distance between the plot and the city is less than the cultural radius, then 20 times the difference is added to the plot culture as well. Note that the square that the city is on counts as being 1 space away and that this 20 value is not scaled with regards to game mode. It is always 20 per turn, period.
To make sure that that's clear, let me describe it another way. Think of the city's potential cultural area as a series of rings. The first ring consists of the city and the 8 surrounding squares. The second ring contains the other 12 squares of the city's production area, and so on. When the city's cultural level is 1, only the first ring gets the points from the city's CPT. When the city's cultural level reaches 2, both first and second ring get the base CPT and the first ring also gets and additional 20 points a turn, even if the city isn't generating any culture at that time. When the city reaches it's third cultural expansion, The inner 9 squares get an extra 40 points, the next ring gets 20 points and so on. At the highest level of culture, the inner ring gets a whopping 100 extra points of plot culture per turn.
When you found a city, you also get some plot culture to allow you to control the surrounding area, specifically 2 points on the city square and 1 point in the surrounding 8 squares. This is why newly founded cities are so easy to culturally overwhelm. All you need is a few turns of an obelisk and you've got a majority of culture in your neighbor's city.

One last source of culture is the great artist. When added as an artist superspecialist, he merely contributes to the city's cultural (and science) production like any other specialist. However, when the artist is used to create a great work (often called a 'culture bomb'), it gets interesting. Of course, the 4000 culture points are instantly added to the city's culture. Guess how many of those 4000 points are added to the plot culture of the surrounding squares. The answer is zero. Of course, those familiar with culture bombing will be surprised by this, because they will remember using great works to take control of territory as well boost the city culture, so clearly something more complex is going on. Here's what actually happens:
First, the city is brought out of revolt, if it is currently revolting. Then, the 4000 points (or whatever the value of the great artist happens to be) is broken up into 20 equal groups. The first group is added to the city's culture. The city's cultural level and radius are recalculated. Then, one turn worth of the city's current cultural output is added to the surrounding squares, including the 20 point bonus for each ring below the outermost ring. Repeat this process for the other 19 groups of great work culture.
So, let's walk through what this does. Suppose a great artist creates a great work in a city that has no culture. The first of the 200 point groups of culture is added. This brings the city's culture level immediately up to 3. Now, although a turn worth of the city's culture is now delivered, the city has no culture and is producing no culture. So, the only plot culture gained is from those 20 point bonuses. The city plot and 8 surrounding squares thus get 40 points of plot culture. The next ring gets only 20 points in each square. Now, we repeat. The next 200 points is added. City's cultural level stays at 3. Same amount added to nearby squares. Third 200 points added. This brings the city's cultural level to 4, where it will stay for the remainder of the cultural delivery as we're only giving 4000 points and it needs 5000 for the next level. So, the innermost ring gets 60 culture each of 18 times, the next ring gets 40 culture 18 times, and the third ring gets 20 culture 18 times. Or, to sum it up, The first ring gets 1160 points of plot culture, the second ring gets 760, the third ring gets 360 and the fourth ring, although within the city's cultural radius gets nothing. This may seem like a lot, but consider if you sat on the city for a mere 20 turns, you'd double it. Of course, if the city also had any cultural production, that amount would be delivered 20 times to every square in the first 3 rings, and 18 times to the fourth ring.
Note that when the city's culture is delivered, it is the amount that the city produces at that instant, not that turn. This should raise some mental red flags as possibly abusive, because yes, you can set your culture slider to 100, assign everyone to artist specialist, deliver your culture bomb, then set them back before ending your turn. Knowing this, you can get a great deal of benefit at no cost, if you know the trick. Well, actually, there is some cost, because to use this trick to say add another 1000 to all your squares' culture, you'd need first need to build the city up to where it can produce 50 CPT.
I don't think that this would be a huge issue in most games. Normally a culture bomb would be used to gain minimal immediate control over a contested city. No time to build cultural buildings and not much cultural output anyway. However, if one's goal is to culturally overwhelm the opponents and force their cities to change sides, it becomes an issue, because one might actually want to culture bomb in a huge city with many cultural buildings in order to speed the revolt of a powerful neighboring city. In such games, it might be desireable to impose some sort of a rule, such as needing to leave the artists and culture slider there for 1 turn, or not being allowed to crank up culture at all, prior to bombing. Perhaps even being required to minimize rather than maximize cultural output prior to bomb. Of course, you could just add it to the list of strange things you might need to do to win a culture war game, along with clearing out large garrisons with helicopters and such. But, do whatever you find fun. It's not like I care how you play the game.

Anyway, let's move on to the topic of revolts. A revolt in a city can occur if the owner of the city and the person who would own the underlying square if there were no city are different. In other words, a city might revolt if a neighboring city belonging to a different civilization has it within its cultural radius and that civilization's plot culture under the city is greater than the city's owner and that of all other civilizations with a city in range. You don't have to have a majority, you just have to have more of your nationality than the other guy. If a revolt can occur, there is a flat 10% chance each turn of making a revolt check.
During a revolt check, a random number between 0 and the city's revolt power is compared with the garrison strength. If the number is greater than the garrison strength, the city revolts. Barbarian cities always fail this check, so will always revolt. If a city revolts there are several effects. All units in the city lose half their current hit points, the city's cultural radius becomes 0 and it produces nothing for a certain number of turns. Also, there is a possibility that the city may change sides (called a flip). A barbarian city will always flip, period. A non barbarian city won't flip if this is the first revolt (there is always one warning revolt). It also won't flip if the option "no city flipping" is on (this by default is off). It won't flip back to someone who has previously owned it, regardless of reason for ownership change, unless the game option "city flipping after conquest" is enabled (this is by default off). If a city flips, all units belonging to enemies of the new owner are destroyed. If the units aren't at war with the new owner, they simply get expelled unless the new owner has open borders with the units' owner.
So, how is revolt power calculated? The base revolt power starts at 1 and then two factors are added. The first is 2x the city's highest ever population. The second is the number of directly adjacent squares that the revolting people's civilization controls times the current game era. Current game era is considered to be the average era of the remaining players, rounded down, with ancient being considered '1', medieval '2', and so on. So, in the final era (6), if the side the city wants to revolt for controls all 8 squares around the city, this could be as high as 48.
The base revolt power is then multiplied by several factors. The first is the ratio of the two sides' plot culture for the city square. The formula for this multiplier is 1 + ((revoltCulture - cityOwnerCulture) / (revoltCulture)). This would be a number between 1 and 2, being near 2 if the revolt's plot culture is much higher than the owner, and being near 1 if the two are almost equal. If the revolt's plot culture is twice that of the city owner (i.e., 67% revolting nationality, 33% owner nationality), the value would be about 1.5. Sorry for the ugly math, but I can't find a way to explain it more simply at the moment.
Fortunatly, the other multipliers are a bit simpler. If the revolting civilization's state religion is present, the value is doubled. If the city owner's state religion is present, the value is halved. If both are present, these two multipliers cancel each other out. If somebody doesn't have a state religion, they don't get a multiplier.
The city's garrison strength is also simple. Start at 1 and add the cultural garrison strength of all units in the city, regardless of ownership. Double this if the owner and revolting civilization are at war. The only catch is that cultural garrison strength can't be found in game, so here is a list of unit values:
warrior, quecha: 3
archer, skirmisher, axe, spear, phalanx, chariot, immortal, catapult: 4
swordsman, jaguar, praetorian, horsearcher, keshik, war elephant: 5
mace, samurai, pike, longbow, crossbow, chokonu, knight, camelarcher, conquistador: 6
musketman, musketeer, grenadier, cannon: 7
rifle, redcoat, calvalry, cossack: 8
machine gun: 9
infantry, SAM infantry, gunship, artillery: 10
marine, SEAL, tank, panzer: 12
mech infantry, modern armor: 16
Note that ships, planes, workers, great people, and other non-military or non-land units don't help keep a city under control.

Okay, now that all that stuff above has been covered, let's give some actual examples, so you can see what it means:

Example 1: Low culture capital
Consider a capital city with just a palace and no other cultural buildings. Suppose that the owner just sits there and builds no cultural buildings for 200 turns. How would this work out? Well, the palace produces 2 culture per turn, so at the start, the 9 initial city squares are going to get that amount for 5 turns (total 10), when the cultural radius expands. For the next 45 turns, the first two rings would be getting that 2 CPT and the inner ring would get an extra 20 per turn. Then the Radius expands and for the next 150 turns, the 3 city rings all get 2 culture, with the outer getting 20 extra and the inner getting 40 extra. So, let's add this up. The city of course would end up at radius 3 with a flat 400 culture. The third ring would get a modest 300 points of plot culture, not too hard to invade. The second ring would get 3390. The inner ring, including the city square would get a whopping 7300. For another civ to get a majority in the area, they would need to beat that. If they took the city and just started culture bombing, they'd need around 6 great artists to gain that majority, unless of course they put some more culture in the city. The lesson? Sitting on a spot for a long time counts a lot with regards to cultural control.

Example 2: Cultural Nuke
Okay, suppose you've got a city that you've got a city that you've built up culturally, in order to flip an enemy capital, say, the city in the previous example, which is 3 squares away, the minimum distance between 2 cities on the same landmass (cities on different landmasses can be 2 squares away, oddly enough). You've decided that you're okay with maximizing cultural output to increase culture bomb yield, so you crank the up the culture slider to 100%. You've really built the city up and it already has 900 culture. It also has 14 towns within it's production radius. With 4 base commerce, +2 for free speech, +1 for printing press and +1 for financial, this is 8 culture per square, more than the 6 that an artist specialist gives you with sistine chapel, so you leave 14 people on towns for 113 CPT. One of your people is already an artist, and you have the other 7 join him, with sistine, that's another 48 CPT. You've also got assorted buildings: 5 temples (+5), a Library (+2), a Theatre (+3), and 2 monastaries (+4). Add all the numbers up for 175 CPT Of course, you didn't forget the cultural multipliers either: 4 cathedrals and the hermitage, not to mention Free speech, for a 400% bonus. 5 X 175 is 825 CPT. Yowza! Okay, so you send in your Great Artist and erm, detonate him. Every single square in the city radius istantly gets the equivalent of 20 turns of that 825 CPT, including the enemy capital that you are trying to flip. That's 16500. Oh, and since the enemy capital is in the second to outermost ring of your cultural influence, it gets an additional 400 points from that 20 point per turn bonus.
Now, if you hadn't assigned those artists and cranked you'd only have a base of 20, which, with multipliers, would become a mere 100 CPT. The total sum of 20 turns (with the same 400 bonus points) would be 2400. So, you got 7 times the effect for making a temporary adjustment to your production, which you will now switch back. Basically, you got 7 Great Artists for the price of one by exploiting a hole in the game mechanics. Now, if this doesn't bother your conscience just a wee bit, remind me not to allow you in my house unsupervised.

Example 3: The English are Revolting
This following example actually happened in a recent game of mine. In this particular game, the English happened to be one of my neighbors and, as neighbors are wont to do, Viki decided to stick a knife in my back while I was off invading Mali. The main effect of this little skirmish was that I ended up owning one of Viki's cities (Oh, and I called off my invasion of Mali and a few million people died and one of my cities got trashed from pillaging and repeatedly changing hands, but that's not important). Deciding that it wouldn't be worth the trouble to keep up the fight, I negotiated a peace treaty and resumed plotting to crush Mali at my earliest convenience.
This English city that I had captured was culturally very advanced and was something like 4 or 5 squares from their capital. Looking at the city, I noticed a high probability of revolt, somewhere around 9%. Now, if I had remembered the default 'no city flipping after conquest' setting, I might not have been so concerned, but I was thinking civ3 and I was afraid it was going to revolt back, so I started building culture and sending in more troops. With a garrison of 20 troops, a culture bomb, many buildings, and 29% of the population switched to my nationality, the !@#$% city was still trying to revolt. Several revolts later, I added a bunch of mech infantry and finally got the unrest under control, at which point my next invasion of Mali triggered an unnoticed defensive pact, forcing me to destroy the English as well and gain a domination victory, meaning no more chance of revolt, so all my anti-unrest measures were a waste of time anyway.
Anyway, let's see what was going on. Sometime in the renaissance era (Most players were Industrial, but remember, the era is the players' average era, rounded down) the city had a population of 14 and 4 of the 8 surrounding squares were still under english cultural control. So, multiply the population by 2 and the squares by 4 (renaissance being the 4th era) and we get a base revolt power of 44. Given that 29% of the city was my nationality, we multiply this by 1.59 (this is the approximate result of the nationality ratio equation given above), giving 69. In the interests of diplomacy, I had no state religion, while the city contained Elizabeth's state religion, Confusianism. In fact, it was the Confusian holy city, but this doesn't give any bonuses. Still, her state religion doubles her revolt power. Anyway, we get a revolt power of 138. Okay, the garrison at this point consists of 4 archers, 9 longbows, 1 horse archer, 2 grenadiers and 4 infantry. Add up the numbers and add 1 and we get 130. Hmm. All those troops aren't quite enough. Now maybe if I had a state religion or could've gotten Elizabeth to drop hers, I'd have had an easier time.

Example 4: Modding Fun
The Mod "FallFromHeaven100" (not to be confused with "FallFromHeaven200", which is too big for my modem, so I've never tried it) contains an interesting take on the missionary unit. Not only is it a medic I combat unit, at least some of the missionary units have the ability to create a tiny great work of art. 20 points of culture, to be exact. Now the intention of this unit was probably to allow a player to throw some quick culture in and get at least 1 culture level and stop any revolt in progress. However, due to the underlying cultural formula, this still gives 20 turns of culture to every square in the city's cultural radius. Not only that, unlike the rare and hard to acquire Great Artist, you can build these guys cheaply in whatever numbers your cities can produce. Of course, while you're busy dropping a mini culture bomb every turn or two, your enemies will be busy outteching your economic mess of a civilization. It can be a bit uncool when the enemy walks over your borders with heavy crossbowmen (power 13) while you're still using archers (power 3, just like standard civ).

Source of information:
Most information given here was acquired by reading the source code in the civ4 SDK, available from Firaxis. The culture functions are contained in the files "CvCity.cpp" and "CvPlot.cpp". "CvUnit.cpp" contains the code for great people.
A number of game values can also be ascertained (or modified) by reading the files in the Assets/XML directory, even if you do not have the SDK. Many of the numbers used in the culture source code are found in GlobalDefines.xml. Units/Civ4UnitInfos.xml contains various unit statistics, including cultural garrison power and great work value. If you do decide to modify the xml, be sure to keep a backup and if possible, figure out how to put your changes in your customassets folder, leaving the original one unmodified. I have no idea how to go about this, as I've never felt the need to actually modify any of the game's values.
 
DerangedDuck,

Thanks for your effort here, and welcome to CivFanatics! :)

It's a big read, and I'm no mathematician, so it will take some time for all of it to sink in, but the "exploit" is very interesting - and as it happens pretty handy as I'm involved in a game with a Cultural Victory objective with a few geographically close neighbours.

Great stuff, and thanks again.
 
Thanks DerangedDuck!

There's a tonne of useful information here. I had no idea the culture system in Civ4 was so deep! But it certainly explains some of the weird culture effects in the game, like the little blobs of enemy culture that you invariably see as you storm through conquering a civ.

I think some of the modders who make unaltered gameplay mods (where the ease of access to information is emphasised) would be interested in including the cultural strengths of units in their civilopedias or the interface. It was great that you included this data!

The article might be long but it was a good read, and in any case it should be added to the War Academy. :)
 
Needs formatting....

The mechanics of the culture bomb were described in the discussion of RB29d, I'd probably turn to that thread for insight into related strategic and tactical concerns. The various passive/aggressive games are also likely to be worthwhile references.
 
Great work!!

It can indeed be (ab)used in a veeeery exploitive way. I love it, but cannot but hope it is corrected somehow, or at lease put in an "official exploitive techniques not to be used in SGs"
 
Needs formatting....

I agree. I'll do this along with adding a couple of things I notice that I forgot: mention of culture not carrying over continental boundaries/ocean and that weird stuff where terrain around conquered cities sometimes becomes temporarily unowned. This will happen, well, whenever I get around to it.

The mechanics of the culture bomb were described in the discussion of RB29d, I'd probably turn to that thread for insight into related strategic and tactical concerns. The various passive/aggressive games are also likely to be worthwhile references.

Reading the RB29 threads is what actually got me interested enough to go and look up how the culture stuff works. However, as between 1 and 4 of the RB29 games are still in progress, I waffled about what I could mention without any spoilers and ended up saying nothing at all (can't give out spoilers that way). For the benefit of any lawyers here, I will note that I actually read the code before finishing reading the RB29 threads, so, technically none of the stuff here is spoilers. Also, to the extent that one or more of the RB29 threads discovered much of this information, they might have hypothetically missed the fact that the 4000 Great Work culture only affects the city's culture level. This goes to illustrate how important it is to check and recheck everything and try things out. I almost made a big mistake in this article, which I only discovered when I was doing example 3 and my formula was saying that I shouldn't have been having a chance of revolt. A check of the code revealed that I'd managed to misread a formula that involved 37 billion nested parenthesis '()(()()((())())))'. Oops.

Oh, and if someone decides to go into the source code and double check what I've written, to make sure that I didn't make any other mistakes like that, I won't be in the least bit offended.:)
 
If you ever get interested in trade routes, it seems that there are still question marks over how they are assigned in the game. Perhaps you could apply your genius to those at some stage. After BTS, as the XPac will change things significantly.
 
If you ever get interested in trade routes, it seems that there are still question marks over how they are assigned in the game. Perhaps you could apply your genius to those at some stage. After BTS, as the XPac will change things significantly.

*peeks at code*
Okay, here's a rough idea of how it seems to work. None of this has been tested/verified, so don't put too much stock on it.

Each city can be a trade target for one city belonging to each player, or in other words, each city can show up in the trade routes window of one of your cities. It can also show up once in each other players' cities. The exception is that your own (and possibly permanent alliance?) cities can be a trade target for any number of your cities.

Every turn, all your cities are ranked in order of "trade modifier", which is based on population, presence of harbor (or other trade modifying buildings), and connection to your capital. The highest ranking city will then get first shot at getting trade routes.

Each city (highest first) will check the value of all possible trade targets and grab whichever ones would have the highest value. Once a potential trade target has been grabbed, none of the rest of your cities can choose it.

The value of a trade target is a number based on distance or size of the target city, choosing whichever is lower. So a small distant city will suck as much as a huge, but nearby city. However, since distance varies, depending on which city the target is paired with, the value of a city is not the same to all of your cities. Since the amount of gold a great merchant generates seems to be based on this same trade value, with respect to your capital, if your capital is your best city, it's list of trade routes would probably be the best places to send the merchant (I should actually try this).

I guess all this means that the best place for oxford/wall street is in a big coastal city, unless some other city has a shrine or a lot more cottage income.
 
DerangedDuck, first of all, I would like to thank you for this mine of information about culture effects on Civ IV( I simply don't have enough time to read XML ( my job is of increasling scarcer type that doesn't allow you to be at a computer desk, so I must thank all of you that can do that ).

About your preview of trade routes: I found some posters that are conviced that markets and other economic buildings somehow atract foreign trade routes. Your "peek" analisys talks about the effect of of trade route modifiers like harbors, but is silent about potential effects of markets, grocers and banks ( those act over :gold: output, not trade routes directly). It is true that those buildings atract foreign trade routes ( even using a indirect effect), or not?

P.S Sorry for the threadjacking
 
I don't see any way that any other building could effect trade routes. Of course, someone could confirm or refute this by doing an experiment with the world builder in which they place various cities and change their sizes or move them or add buildings and record the results. See, high school science class was worth something after all (or would have been if you hadn't slept through the whole thing.)
 
I do not believe Curlute bomb mechanic is broken or explotive. The only complain may be that AI can not exploite it this way.

WHY GA should be useless in later stage of game?

At the end of day the only think that added is 20 turns of max culture city can produce.

In order for it to be really efficient in later stage of game one need to invest a lot in culture building in the city, otherwize useless investment.

All GP scale there effect with something.

Ligthbulbing scale with Civ population, Merchant mission scale with bunch of factors, GE scale with size of city he used to harry production in.

Shrine effect scale with number of city with religion.
why GA effect should not be scaled up with culture production in city?

Thy not with Max posible culture production in city?

I see this mechanic just make bomb usefull in some cases to move old borders, that all. It is not broken or unballance or abusing.
 
I do not believe Curlute bomb mechanic is broken or explotive. The only complain may be that AI can not exploite it this way.

WHY GA should be useless in later stage of game?

At the end of day the only think that added is 20 turns of max culture city can produce.

In order for it to be really efficient in later stage of game one need to invest a lot in culture building in the city, otherwize useless investment.

All GP scale there effect with something.

Ligthbulbing scale with Civ population, Merchant mission scale with bunch of factors, GE scale with size of city he used to harry production in.

Shrine effect scale with number of city with religion.
why GA effect should not be scaled up with culture production in city?

Thy not with Max posible culture production in city?

I see this mechanic just make bomb usefull in some cases to move old borders, that all. It is not broken or unballance or abusing.

it should scale with population, like the GE.
This scaling although somehow logical is not documented, and won't be used correctly by the AIs.
+ the GE doesn't scale with hammers, so why would the GA scale with culture.
 
They ethical problem is that you can put every citizen as an artist, run max culture slider set the city to build bulture(does this help too?) then bomb the city, put all citizens back to work and readjust the cuture slider, without losing any population, stored food or science.
If you ran 20 turns max culture like that Mutineer your city would be size 1 again.
 
As I sad, 20 turns of max culture posible. I do not disagree that current effect is not ellegant, demand unuseal micro and can not be used by AI. On other hand It is definatly not game breaking.

I hope you would not disagree that border effect of culture bomb should scile more then other GP effect?
Simple becaouse culture accumulated faster and faster as game progress in order for bomb to be of any use it should scle more. It give only very local effect, so it should be strong.

Even now, whith max abuse it is not gamebreaking. It is good, but not that good.

AS I sad, main thin is that AI can not use it and it contain unnessesary micromanagment.

It probably would be sligtly better if they use 20 times the culture produced on last turn, but again, any city useally can run 1 turn of food deficite, so there would be not mach difference.

Suggest something resonable then? Size itself is bad, because big size could be achieved very early and there cap to size, when there no cap on culture on tie.

Currently it is good, it depends on city cultural development.
If we follow this line of thought, may be it should scale with current city culture?

It could be interesting, as bombing legendary city on normal speed will poor 54K culture. nice.

It is not that mach diferent with wat possible now, as legendary cities useally make 1000-1500 culture/turn.

so currently one will get 24K-34K culture, but it would be probably way to week for 4-5K culture cities and probably made multiply bombs to efffective, as effect will be multiplied.

Scale effect with amount of culture multipliers in city? a bit to week.

I would like to see settled GA to have an effect? Assign any settle GA 100% multiplyer in addition to city multiplyers?

It become nice, I would go with that.

effect = GA value * city culture multiplyers * civic culture multiplyers * (1+ number of GA settle). I like this formula.
 
i still think it should scale with population.
This would be more coherent with the effects of the other great people (only the merchants effect isn't totally linked to size only).
Maybe cultural modifiers (free speech, cathedrals, ...) should indeed increase the effect on tiles.
 
i still think it should scale with population.
This would be more coherent with the effects of the other great people (only the merchants effect isn't totally linked to size only).
Maybe cultural modifiers (free speech, cathedrals, ...) should indeed increase the effect on tiles.

It would certainly change how one pursues cultural victory...specialists might end up being a better strategy than cottages, or at least closer.

Darrell
 
GREAT ARTICLE! I've been after this info for ages. Many thanks.

1.
To make sure that that's clear, let me describe it another way. Think of the city's potential cultural area as a series of rings. The first ring consists of the city and the 8 surrounding squares. The second ring contains the other 12 squares of the city's production area, and so on. When the city's cultural level is 1, only the first ring gets the points from the city's CPT. When the city's cultural level reaches 2, both first and second ring get the base CPT and the first ring also gets and additional 20 points a turn, even if the city isn't generating any culture at that time. When the city reaches it's third cultural expansion, The inner 9 squares get an extra 40 points, the next ring gets 20 points and so on. At the highest level of culture, the inner ring gets a whopping 100 extra points of plot culture per turn.

Note the phrase even if the city isn't generating any culture at that time. What I've learned from this is that there is a real benefit in micromanaging cultural expansion to get the city cultural radius to expand early rather than building cultural buildings that aren't otherwise needed allowing your hammers to be directed where they are really needed.

So in production cities, as the accumulated culture rises close to the next breakpoint (10, 100, 500 on standard map) it makes sense to employ some artists for a few turns to get your city culture level to expand faster then redirect that population to other purposes. Likewise once you learn music it makes sense to increase the slider to 100% for several turns to boost any front line commerce cities.

After the cultural boundary of key border cities expands you can reduce the extra cpt from the artists and culture slider but the plots continue to benefit from additional +20cpt bonuses from increasing your cities cultural level. This can make all the difference in keeping your culture a majority on all bonus plots.


2.
The city's CPT is also added to the plot culture of every plot within the city's cultural radius, regardless of ownership or presence or absence of other cities.
The use of overlapping cultural radii to control territory has been mentioned in many places in the forum so it might be worth mentioning what happens from the plot viewpoint rather than the city viewpoint ie what happens to plot culture where the plot is within multiple city radii of the same player.

Something like - the total plot culture for each player for a particular plot is the sum of the plot culture from each individual city that has a radius covering that plot.
 
i still think it should scale with population.
This would be more coherent with the effects of the other great people (only the merchants effect isn't totally linked to size only).
Maybe cultural modifiers (free speech, cathedrals, ...) should indeed increase the effect on tiles.
Sorry for highjacking the thread but I'm trying to understand what you mean by the effects of the other great people that are scaleable: Shrines, hurry, academy, lightbulbing, settling and/or, golden ages?

Shrines scale with religion spread.
I don't know about hurry
Academy scales with city base beakers + beakers from specialists.
Lightbulbing also seems to scale down as the game progresses as I can lightbulb a complete tech in AA but only part later in the game
Settling scales according to multipliers in the city settled
Golden ages scale down as the game progresses ie 2GPs, 3GPs etc

Is this what you meant and can you fill in any gaps in my knowledge?
 
Sorry for highjacking the thread but I'm trying to understand what you mean by the effects of the other great people that are scaleable: Shrines, hurry, academy, lightbulbing, settling and/or, golden ages?

Shrines scale with religion spread.
I don't know about hurry
Academy scales with city base beakers + beakers from specialists.
Lightbulbing also seems to scale down as the game progresses as I can lightbulb a complete tech in AA but only part later in the game
Settling scales according to multipliers in the city settled
Golden ages scale down as the game progresses ie 2GPs, 3GPs etc

Is this what you meant and can you fill in any gaps in my knowledge?
can you believe I forgot that academy scale with base beakers:eek: ?
I confused somehow lightbulbing and great work. After opening my eyes, I can see (duh!) that only lightbulbing and prodction from GE scale with population.
So it's not totally absurd that culture in tiles after a great work scale with cpt. It's still not right IMHO, but at least it's somehow logical.
Thanks ;).

To answer your question, lightbulbing scales with population empire wide.
If you have a really huge population, you can lightbulb electricity in 1 turn.
The production from a GE scales with population in the city where you hurry production. It's 500 hammers + 20 hammers /pop AFAIK (normal speed).
 
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