HMS Terror (Gunboat 1900)

I found some very nice looking images of a cardboard model someone had made and had to make it!
Thanks to asioasioasio for a tone of help in the texturing department my model is finally finished and it even comes with it's own animations!

To those who I have told I would do stuff for the, this again is more exploratory work into 3ds max, this will help me when I get to your stuff.

Anyways, here she is, the "Terror" of the seas.



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Pretty. Congrats on expanding your skill set.

I see you have the HMS Dreadnought in the background... but you're not using Danrell's excellent reskin?!?!? (from 7 modern units pack).

Here you go though...

Thanks Woody.

Wolfy: Actually that was from the set of images I used, hope it was recognizable.

Yeah, that is the Dreadnought back there, I just have not gotten around to putting the new skin in yet.. It was more for reference as they were from a very similar time period.

Edit: Gah, asioasioasio mentioned I forgot the mast and I was about to put it in, but I forgot again. Will get to that too eventually.

Edit #2: Ok, mast added. I do not have an updated pic, can get one if needed, but it just has a mast now.

5 stars

very nice model

im curious: what is the history behind this boat?

GarretSidzaka said:

very nice model

im curious: what is the history behind this boat?

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I'm not sure why Matt chose to model this particular gunboat, and I don't know of much specific glorious history behind the victorian-age gunboat HMS Terror (I believe it saw some colonial-wars action in Africa, but my info on it is sketchy), but this particular model is based on the 1890s version of Gunboats (Post-Ironclad/Pre-Dreadnought era)... though to be honest, Gunboats are a dime a dozen and come in many, MANY differant shapes and sizes... though they really didn't change a whole lot from Victorian times through the 1950s.

What I find a bit odder is what to do with it in Civ4-terms.

It's not an ocean-going warship, and should be easily swept from the seas by just about anything out there. I suppose the best thing to do would be make it a "modern" replacement for the default Ironclad (coastal-only) gunboat already in the game.

It'd HAVE to be a coastal-water-only unit... pretty cheap to produce, but I wouldn't give it much (if any) higher combat value then the ironclad gunboat it replaces. Probably would just give it some nice combat modifiers against various transport units (Modern Transports and Steamers/Paddle-boats if already added).

My thoughts are that if you've added ocean-going ironclads and/or pre-dreadnought type ships, you don't want a tiny gunboat going around sinking them, so the combat value would have to be similar (if not identical) to the vanilla Civ4 ironclad gunboat combat value... but to make the unit even worth a thought of use and/or purchasing, make it dirt-cheap and give it nice bonuses to sink various transport units... probably some coastal bombardment too... making it a cheap unit to protect your own shores and/or to enforce a little "colonial bombardment" on "primative" civilizations around the world who may not have reached the industrial age yet. Being cheap, you can leave them to defend your home while your big gun fleet goes sailing for glory.

Timeline-wise, this unit would be introduced post-ironclad age... roughly an 1890s and beyond type unit. If you've added pre-dreadnought-era ships, this would be introduced at the same time as them.

Dunno... when I saw Matt added this I started thinking "how will this unit fit into Civ4 gameplay mechanics?". The above thoughts are what I came up with... or, you can just go "too many units already, not enough impact" and skip it...

Yes, this is a perfect model for the EthnicEraArt mod.

GarretSidzaka said:

very nice model

im curious: what is the history behind this boat?

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No history really, I just wanted to do a gunboat and this was the only tyoe I could find any good pictures of..

Wolfshanze said:

I'm not sure why Matt chose to model this particular gunboat, and I don't know of much specific glorious history behind the victorian-age gunboat HMS Terror (I believe it saw some colonial-wars action in Africa, but my info on it is sketchy), but this particular model is based on the 1890s version of Gunboats (Post-Ironclad/Pre-Dreadnought era)... though to be honest, Gunboats are a dime a dozen and come in many, MANY differant shapes and sizes... though they really didn't change a whole lot from Victorian times through the 1950s.

What I find a bit odder is what to do with it in Civ4-terms.

It's not an ocean-going warship, and should be easily swept from the seas by just about anything out there. I suppose the best thing to do would be make it a "modern" replacement for the default Ironclad (coastal-only) gunboat already in the game.

It'd HAVE to be a coastal-water-only unit... pretty cheap to produce, but I wouldn't give it much (if any) higher combat value then the ironclad gunboat it replaces. Probably would just give it some nice combat modifiers against various transport units (Modern Transports and Steamers/Paddle-boats if already added).

My thoughts are that if you've added ocean-going ironclads and/or pre-dreadnought type ships, you don't want a tiny gunboat going around sinking them, so the combat value would have to be similar (if not identical) to the vanilla Civ4 ironclad gunboat combat value... but to make the unit even worth a thought of use and/or purchasing, make it dirt-cheap and give it nice bonuses to sink various transport units... probably some coastal bombardment too... making it a cheap unit to protect your own shores and/or to enforce a little "colonial bombardment" on "primative" civilizations around the world who may not have reached the industrial age yet. Being cheap, you can leave them to defend your home while your big gun fleet goes sailing for glory.

Timeline-wise, this unit would be introduced post-ironclad age... roughly an 1890s and beyond type unit. If you've added pre-dreadnought-era ships, this would be introduced at the same time as them.

Dunno... when I saw Matt added this I started thinking "how will this unit fit into Civ4 gameplay mechanics?". The above thoughts are what I came up with... or, you can just go "too many units already, not enough impact" and skip it...

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I have it in that 1850 mod I am working on as 10 power (Relative to the dreadnoughts 50) but it gets a major bonus vs wooden ships and such, because that was it's "real" role, so you wouldn't have to send in your expensive ships when you could just send on one of these that would tear apart any wooden enemy.

I was also thinking of some sort of special bombardment to symbolize it's ability to get in real close, and even sail up rivers..

GeneralMatt said:

I have it in that 1850 mod I am working on as 10 power (Relative to the dreadnoughts 50) but it gets a major bonus vs wooden ships and such, because that was it's "real" role, so you wouldn't have to send in your expensive ships when you could just send on one of these that would tear apart any wooden enemy.

I was also thinking of some sort of special bombardment to symbolize it's ability to get in real close, and even sail up rivers..

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Well yeah, if you put it in a scenario, you can do very specific things with it... if you want to put it in the main game, you gotta think long and hard on it (which is what I tried to do).

If memory serves me correctly (I'm at work so can't check), the Ironclad has a combat value of 12 and a move of 2 (coastal only)... I'm thinking use this as a more modern replacement, giving the gunboat combat-12, move-3 (coastal only) and throw-in some nice combat modifiers/bonuses against steamers and modern transports (to ensure a gunboat can sink them)... the combat value of 12 should be enough to discourage wooden ships on the whole. Since it's a "modern replacement/ugrade" to the Ironclad Gunboat, I don't want the combat value lower, and you could argue why the combat value is the same as the ironclad gunboat since the modern gunboat may be able to carry higher-velocity and/or AP round-toting guns... though I'd still be afraid to try a gunboat against an ocean-going ironclad and it's broadside.

Dunno... just brainstorming.

Yeah, it seems like a lot of the stuff I make is hard to get right eh?
Definitely it would be as, if not more powerful than the ironclad as you just look at the type of guns it was carrying and the age, 1860's compared to 1900's.

The one thing that made the gunboat so useful was it's cheapness and the ability to take older navies with ease. Maybe it can start with Blitz so you can attack those many frigates that the enemy can throw at you..

Nah... I wouldn't give the cheapest modern naval unit "Blitz" ability if a modern destroyer, cruiser or battleship couldn't wade through a stack of frigates likewise.

The gunboat may be a turn-of-the-century vessel, but it's still not a powerhouse unit, and I doubt it would even fair well against 1800s ironclads (which is why I wouldn't give it a higher rating then the lowest of ironclads).

Gunboats are not armored, are very small, and not particuarly fast. While they may carry some modern guns, they don't tend to be very large caliber.

Modern-age or not, I wouldn't want to take a 1900-ish gunboat against an 1870s european ironclad frigate... but I sure wouldn't have a problem going against a war junk or some african canoes and show-off some colonial power!

This is why you'd have to be careful with the combat value. I'm not sure how I'd rate an 1890s/1900-ish gunboat against 1870s top-of-the-line warships (not much on record here!)... probably some sort of wash or even an edge to the bigger ironclads. What the gunboat lacks in size or crew may be made up for by more modern guns (though once again of smaller caliber). Once again, I think I'd have to rate a gunboat with the same combat value of a small ironclad (12), then plop-on some significant bonuses against modern transports. That should be a high enough value to take-on age-of-sail ships comfortably... be a wash with ironclad warships... and protect yourself from unescorted transport attacks... but still lose easily to any modern warship.

Yes of course, they get demolished by larger warships.
Why I was thinking Blitz is because of the extra mobility, you would still have to be careful though, it would take damage.

The thing is, the current ironclad IS a gunboat, just an earlier type, they even had gunboats in the Napoleonic war, and they were the main type of boat on the Lakes in the War of 1812. Just a couple guns, fast, maneuverable etc. (during the ironclad era it became a few guns, and they ditched the maneuverable for armour, though I am sure the 1900's gunboats could outsail any Iron Frigate).

In a combat with a Ironclad Frigate, it would depend on the room to maneuver, but yeah, it would not be a good idea.

That is why I think 10 pwr, maybe %50 vs frigates, galleons, steamers etc and then it is also weak enough to not pose a challenge for destroyers.
I would still give it blitz, as it could wade through junks and stuff much easier without getting boarded, and it's guns would be much more effective than say a dreadnoughts, at least at close (very close) range. I mean try hitting little schooners with a dreadnought would be sheer frustration. They would be zipping around, and it's not as if you could see them from as far away as another dreadnought.
But then since it is only 10 pwr it cannot go wading through destroyers very easy, or even Iron Frigates.
Basically I would like to see it as a cheap counter to older ships, as it was. You don't have to go sending your dreadnoughts halfway around the world to fight little wooden tubs if you can just "Send a Gunboat".

I don't like the blitz ability at all for gunboats... why does no other vessel deserve blitz but the gunboat does?

Surely a Destroyer has speed, maneuverability and rapid fire guns galore over what a gunboat has. Oh... and Dreadnoughts have smaller secondary batteries for the sole purpose of dealing with smaller warships.

Oh, and gunboats weren't all that fast... faster then a canoe or a steam powered ironclad gunboat? Sure... but top-speed wasn't anything special... most were in fact, downright slow.

I can't fathom why a tiny gunboat would be able to go through several frigates in a turn while a destroyer or battleship wouldn't... makes no sense to me.

I don't know, I was just thinking of some way to make it "Feel" historical. I guess it is not that battleships and stuff cannot blitz through them, it is just that you then could use that ability on other battleships, destroyers etc where as a gunboat will really only effectively fight against wooden ships and transports..

GeneralMatt said:

I don't know, I was just thinking of some way to make it "Feel" historical. I guess it is not that battleships and stuff cannot blitz through them, it is just that you then could use that ability on other battleships, destroyers etc where as a gunboat will really only effectively fight against wooden ships and transports..

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I don't like that thought at all... you're STILL making the Gunboat BETTER then a destroyer, cruiser or battleship if it can wade through several age-of-sail ships and a destroyer or battleship couldn't... that's just not right.

Give it bonuses for older ships if you want or give ALL modern ships the blitz ability. I can assure you, a battleship is NOT going to go through four enemy battleships in a row with the blitz ability... one-on-one two healthy battleships duking it out is going to leave the survivor hurting so bad there's no way he'd take-on a 2nd battleship in the same round.

Blitz should be an all-or-nothing affair with modern ships... either they all get it, or none get it... I see no reason to grant the smallest of modern ships the blitz ability if their more expensive, more capable, and more valuable bigger cousins don't get it.

Well for one is that the gunboat could chase the frigates and stuff into a lot of places a Battleship could not, harbours, up rivers (if I was a frigate I would be going anywhere I could to get a way from a dreadnought). But if I could do python I would give it a deadly bombardment capability, maybe be able to destruct buildings in cities or something.

It would also be easier to sneak up on pirates and stuff, much moreso than a battleship giving it an advantage in surprise. You see a dreadnought coming, one of you sacrifices yourself while the rest of you escape.

And how is it better if it is a measly 10 power?

GeneralMatt said:

Well for one is that the gunboat could chase the frigates and stuff into a lot of places a Battleship could not, harbours, up rivers (if I was a frigate I would be going anywhere I could to get a way from a dreadnought). But if I could do python I would give it a deadly bombardment capability, maybe be able to destruct buildings in cities or something.

It would also be easier to sneak up on pirates and stuff, much moreso than a battleship giving it an advantage in surprise. You see a dreadnought coming, one of you sacrifices yourself while the rest of you escape.

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Matt... you need to reread your naval history books. You're giving waaaaaaaaaaay too much credit to gunboats... they're not all that and a bag of chips. I'd be hesitant to say they could even take-out an age-of-sail frigate, simply because I wouldn't want to be on the receiving end of a frigate's broadside in a tiny unarmored riverboat with a few guns on it.

Perhaps you're confusing gunboats with MTBs (PT Boats)... PT Boats have speed and good stand-off weapons (ie: torpedoes)... a gunboat is neither fast nor powerful, nor long-ranged... they were used more for police duties and shore bombardment then anything close to resembling naval battles.

You're also way undervalueing what a destroyer or battleship can do. Destroyers can run in fairly shallow waters... they're not exactly huge or require deep waters to run-in. They were used for very close/accurate direct fire support in WWII and beyond, and they'd easily go anywhere a massive (hard to maneuver) Ship of the Line could go.

Perhaps the FUNNIEST thing you said was that a Frigate could hide from a battleship and go in tiny nooks a battleship could not go...

Come on now... really...

I guess that frigate will feel really safe going a mile up-river on a battleship and looking out their telescope and going "hah... you can't get me a mile up-river you massive battleship you..."

At which point the radar-controlled, 20-mile range, volkswagon-sized-1-ton-shells of the battleship would simply ahnihilate them from well at sea with a well-placed broadside.

Matt... I hope you know that during the Gulf War the US Battleships were firing on Iraqi positions 20-miles inland from well out to see. When's the last time a frigate tried to hide 20-miles inland? I don't think your super gunboat can do that either.

I'm not even going to go into the "I see the battleship coming and I'm going to run" thought you did with age-of-sail ships... I hope you know, with a good wind, a sail ship from those days was lucky to do 15 knots. A dreadnought could do at least 20 knots and modern battleships 30 knots or more. We won't even discuss the ability to fire a broadside over the horizon.

Really Matt... you're going to have to do better then that to make me think a raft with some small guns nailed to the deck is better at whiping out old ships then a 45,000-ton modern battleship.

No, I was thinking dreadnoughts, specifically not todays modern stuff, I agree, they would be toast. Modern Destroyers also, I am thinking in the age this unit would have sailed..

You do know the Monitor and Merrimac were gunboats? They could do ok against any frigate because of there armour, that is the type I am talking about, the kind the British Empire used everywhere.. Cannon balls would just bounce of them, certainly after a while they would take their toll, but it would probably be enough for the gunboat to get enough dangerous hits in.

I seriously think we are talking about two different types of gunboats. I don't see how what your describing could stand up to even multiple junks.. I cannot put a name on the incident but there was one where the Chinese and British were at war (One of the Opium ones I think) and the British sent one gunboat, it engaged a bunch of enemies and shredded them all the matchsticks..

Yes, the Monitor and Merrimack (actually CSS Virginia if you want to be correct) are gunboats, but "ironclad gunboats" of the ironclad age. I assume when you're speaking of "gunboats", you're speaking not of "ironclad gunboats", but of the more modern gunboats such as (oddly enough) the HMS Terror gunboat that this thread is about. The HMS Terror depicted in this thread is from the pre-dreadnought era, ranging from about 1890-1906, and when I speak of the capabilities of a gunboat and what it could or could-not stand-up against, I am speaking of pre-dreadnought-era gunboats, such as (once again), the HMS Terror depicted in this thread... I didn't think I needed to clarify since this thread is about the HMS Terror... so when I speak of gunboats, I speak of gunboats like the HMS Terror (not the Monitor and CSS Virginia... those are ironclad gunboats).

When I say "I wouldn't want to be in a gunboat against a frigate's broadside", I speak (once again) not of ironclads like the Virginia, but rather about a turn of the century gunboat like the HMS Terror.

So when you made this thread about the HMS Terror, were you speaking of gunboats like the HMS Terror or where you speaking about the CSS Virginia? Because they are two differant things and I've been speaking about the Terror all along... if you're speaking about the CSS Virginia, you need to let me know!

Now I would take the Terror against Junks... I mentioned that earlier in this thread. I also said I'd take the Terror against an older gunboat like the CSS Virginia (but I'd feel more confident fighting Junks).

When I spoke of stats to assign to a gunboat, I was speaking of the HMS Terror of the 1890s timeframe. We already have stats for an ironclad gunboat... that's called the default stats for the "ironclad" in vanilla Civ4.

The HMS Terror was NOT armored. It was metal, but as I've said before there is a differance between being made of metal and being armored. Two differant things. Ironclad gunboats were armored, the terror was not... though the differance in technology would make it a wash, since the Terror's guns could probably poke holes through an ironclad gunboat's armor... of course ironclad cannons would also not feel very pleasant to the crew of an unarmored HMS Terror either...

To make a long story short (too late)... I've been speaking of the Terror all along... I may referance older ships like the CSS Virginia, but when I speak of the capabilities and limiations of the "gunboat" I speak of the 1890s HMS Terror. Destroyers and Dreadnoughts of the Terror's own age would still be way more effective dealing with lesser navy ships then a gunboat would be, so my point of giving the Terror "Blitz" and not giving "Blitz" to destroyers and dreadnoughts is still valid... and yes, a WWI Dreadnought could hunt-down an enemy frigate very easily and more effectively then a gunboat like the Terror could.