G-III Phi

Congratulations go to Chamnix for victory in Upsilon. We've decided to try something a little different for the next gauntlet by running a variant. The settings are

* Mapsize: Large
* Difficulty: Regent
* Condition: Spaceship

However we would like to run this gauntlet as a strict five city challenge. i.e. you must never own more than five cities/towns/metros at any stage in the game. You may change city locations by building new towns or capturing AI cities but you must first abandon one of your other cities if you already have five.

Note: Please PM Marsden and me when you submit one of these games so that we can run the additional checks required to verify that the game meets the requirements for this gauntlet as well as meeting the HOF standards.

Have your submissions in by January 14th, and good luck.

Never done a 5CC - sounds interesting!!

Strict means that if you are going to capture a city, you have to abandon/give away one of yours BEFORE you take the city, right? You can't take the city THEN abandon one?

AutomatedTeller said:

Strict means that if you are going to capture a city, you have to abandon/give away one of yours BEFORE you take the city, right? You can't take the city THEN abandon one?

Click to expand...

Correct. It also means that you can't accept flips if you already have 5 cities.

If you haven't tried a 5CC before then you might not have seen this article by Charis. It could be worth a look.

one thing occured to me - it's possible to pop a towns from a goody hut - if you already have 5 towns and pop one, can you just abandon one? It's rare to do it, I know, but possible on Regent.

I hadn't thought of that. If you pop a town when you already have five please abandon it straight away.

I've never had that happen to me when playing a 5CC game but you're right-it could occur.

For clarification: is it not an option to Raze instead of capture, or would that still count as you owning 6 cities? This rule set appears to rule out conquest altogether.

This is interesting

I have a couple of xcc games in amongst my submissions, but I don't think I've ever done a spaceship one. I'm thinking Russia for my first try. (Incidentally, LRS is one of my few #1s; how embarrassing will it be if I lose that to a 5cc?)

I think you can raze cities.

And I don't think you have to worry about anyone beating 1265 AD - that's the fastest every large spaceship victory, so I'm pretty sure it won't get beat by a 5CC!!!

Interesting variant. On the one hand, a granary seems less useful, though workers are good. On the other hand, each city getting a granary might be useful.

No problem in razing. I can see me doing a bit of that to ensure that no one steals any of my land. I'll not go mad though as I really want some decent AIs states that will help me get to launch asap.

I thought that this one might get you to bite, Bartleby. I'm sure that your number 1 slot is pretty safe as far as any entries for this gauntlet go.

And the gauntlet has been thrown down!!

1600 AD.

Settings
My civ: Korea. Efficiency is a key to this variant, and a commercial civ has less corruption and more commerce from their cities. Starting with alphabet gets me into republic earlier. Obviously, scientific was key for the 2nd level free techs, though with this variant, it might be less important - the free improvements are less important, because you only have 5 cities.

I decided that what I wanted was a lot of land and not a lot of hills, so I went with 5B, wet, warm, pangea. My thoughts were that I didn't need amazing shields, because I could manage that well, and the more land the AI had, the better. I thought I had planned on 60% pangea, but I had 80% water. That may have been on purpose, though, providing a more compacted resources (which was good for me, since I couldnt' spread out anyway)

Sedentary barbs, to allow for hut popping.

All scientific civs, except Russia (to keep hut poppers down), plus added netherlands, iroquois, france and india. I wanted max civs to give the most money in the game possible, to increase resource availability and to make it easier to control runaways. Also, it would allow me to get some slaves by attacking and razing cities by the non-scientific ones, without having to kill off the scientific partner.

The plan
Since I couldn’t spread out, I went for the super science city and tried to approach the game more like it was a 20K – build as many wonders as possibly early so I could get the tourist income. Get that one city up to size 12 soonest and build the cheapest wonders first. The key was to not build so many that I won a culture victory, though!!

Super science capitol
I searched for a 20K-type capitol – found a start that was coastal, 2 cows, couple of hills and a mountain.

Actually, it wasn’t a great 20K start, because there were too many coastal/sea tiles, but for this type of game, it was fine. I popped out some warriors and a settler for my worker camp set up to work one of the cows and was off and running.
Build order in Seoul:
Collosus 1500 BC
MoM 1000 BC
Lighthouse 775 BC
Wall 590 BC
Glib 250 BC
HG 210 AD
I also built the science doublers here, of course. Science at 100% at 1600 AD was 700 spt, which isn’t bad at all.

Growth
Research was writing->literature->CoL->Philo->Republic, trading for math and all the other early techs, then currency/construction and polytheism. Ottoman’s showed up with poly when I had 3 techs left, but I didn’t trade for it, since you can’t do the tech broker thing if you trade your way to the next era.
This is my land at 1000 BC.

The French plopped Rheims right where I wanted to put a town (my settler was a turn late), so I sent that guy to claim some gems in the jungle. Wonsan is claiming 3 wines and iron (and, it turns out, coal) Joan and I had a very happy life together – she provided the bearskin rugs and the funny smelling sticks, I provided wine and pretty stones and wowed her with my tech geekiness.
I disbanded the town camp and refounded a town NE of Seoul, which spent about 1000 years creating workers until I hit the modern era and brought it up to speed.

Middle ages
I kicked off my GA with MoM while researching construction. The tech trading netted me the first level techs and I got invention for free. I gave away that so that someone could get me gunpowder and went theology/education/astronomy/banking. Ottomans’ get gunpowder when I had 1 turn left, so that wasn’t all that helpful. Chemistry, physics, ToG, Magnetism, mettalurgy quickly followed, though I don’t think I got 4 turn research on anything except maybe gunpowder and theology (theology was in the GA, too).

Industrial Age
Got nationalism, steam and medicine from the AI, starting by bringing up Byzantium who was still in the AA. My free was industrialization. Research was sanitation (had to get up to size 20 ASAP), electricity and rep parts, then to motorized transport. I timed theory of evolution to finish with flight, so I could get 2 extra techs in the modern era, when techs are expensive. I managed to get a couple of techs to 5 turns, but never 4. Having two cities in jungle and one just pumping out workers hurt a lot, I think, because it took so long to get them up to size. And I needed rep parts soon, so I wasn’t able to push the AI to get it. And I think they would have – the AI was pretty decent at research.
I also entered into real warfare for the first time. Germany was at war with Joanie and I got a little worried that she would get overrun, so I told them to leave or declare – they declared, of course. Part of what I wanted to do was some razing for slaves to help with pollution cleanup, which was becoming annoying. I only managed to raze 2 of their cities, and after razing one, a dutch knight took them away!! (I spent most of the game at war with the Dutch)

Modern Times
Many trades netted me all the AI techs (no one got fission) and my free one was synth fibers. ToE got me Fission and miniaturization. I went spaceflight and the rest of the space ship techs. At this point, I had no rubber or uranium, but I did have 2 aluminum. For rubber, I had to go to Iroquois, on the other side of the world and to get it, I had to break not 1, not 2 but 3 trade embargoes against me by declaring war and then giving Hiawatha tech to join in an alliance. Uranium was tougher – I ended up having to give away Fission so Ottoman’s could see and trade their (4) sources.
7 turn research was the norm in the modern era. Life got a little interesting when the ottoman’s stopped trading with 15 turns to go. I reinforced my cities and sure enough, the ottoman’s force showed up next turn. Nice thing about a game like this – even Sipahi can’t get to you in one turn, so I beat up the invasion force and brought in everyone in an alliance. They did steal most of my workers, so I wasn’t able to clear much pollution late until I razed a couple of ottoman cities.

Wrap-up
This shouldn’t win the gauntlet. I got lucky with free techs (it’s not all that unusual to get techs like Chivalry, communism and recycling) and I got pretty lucky with resources, but then, my city placement might not have been so great, and an early SGL might have gotten me more tourist revenue early.
I was surprised, however, how easy it was to get a decent research pace with only 5 cities.

It occurs to me that I'm not going to have Civ access between the 23rd December and the 7th of January.
Hopefully I'll have time for a couple of goes.

@ AutomatedTeller, Just think if that were grassland instead of jungle...

@ Bartleby, Sorry to hear it. For a suitable bribe payment I might be able to extend your deadline, just don't mention it to Tone or anyone else.

Try #2 (it helps to have no contracts going):

1435 AD.

I changed things up a little, removing the two religious civs and adding carthage and england to the mix - plan was to fish for an SGL with CB, so I could rush Pyramids reasonably early. When I went to startup mapfinder, I got a nice start and played it a couple of turns and I liked it more, so I played for awhile. Didn't get the SGL (ended up getting two in the industrial ERA),
but had a lot of nice land, a nice spot to the northeast for my wonder city (4 hills, cow, wheat, one of the hills had gold, bunch of coast), plus a nice spot with iron (and which turned out to have coal, for ironworks - that's the 2nd game in a row a secondary city has had ironworks)

At the end of the game, I was making 1203 SPT @ 100% - over 1/2 that was super science city.

I had all resources except saltpeter and oil, which sumeria stole by plopping a city right outside my culture area.

I think the 80% water and full civs is responsible for that and it makes me think that these are the right settings. Full roster of civs means a lot of resources and tight packing means they are all pretty near by. There were also 2 rubbers and 2 oil on my borders, plus an couple of extra aluminum and uranium and an iron right near by. I had 2 horses all to myself.

This time, I went for nice land instead of luxuries - I had 2 (wines and spices) native, but had to trade for the rest.

AI managed to trim 2 turns off of gunpowder and a 1 off of rep parts for me.

In the IA, when I got hospitals, I turned the capitol into a 1 turn worker factory to help get the other cities up to size.

By the end of the game, I was strong to everyone and everyone loved me - except for Germany, who were screwed.

I think 1400 is possible with an SGL for pyramids and a good setup for a wonder city (closer to capitol or the capitol - mine was ranked 4) But it will require luck with free techs (I was more fortunate this time - was able to get all first level and caught Theology - wasn't able to trade for all the good ones in the IA, so didnt' get a 2nd level, but was able to get all 1st level in MT and caught nuclear power).


My final lands:



Unimproved land wasn't used by any city. Leaving those cows outside a city radius was painful...

Finish Date 1570AD
Civ: Russia (Sci/Exp)
Version: Vanilla

Ancient Age:
I did not spend a single beaker on research. I just built scouts in order to trade for the AI starting techs and to pop goody huts. Workded terrific. My starting techs were Bronze Working and Pottery. I got Ceremonial Burial, Masonry, Warrior Code, Alphabet from trades. And I popped the rest - including Monarchy and Republic - from goody huts. That way I entered the Middle Ages rather early.

Middle Age: 2030 BC (Calculated)
The scientific AI all get Monotheism and I get Feudalism. Since I am still small I do a min run (40 turns) on Engineering while the AI do one on Theology (and Chivalry). After that I research both Education and Astrology in 40 turns while leaving Invention to the AI. Then I do the rest of the lower branch and the AI is kind enough to research Banking.


Industrial Age: 440 AD
The scientific AI all get Nationalism and I get Steam Power. Then right on to Sanitation, then Atomic Theory, then the rest of the upper branch - Flight last. I leave Replaceable Parts to the AI, and they research it. I could have been cleverer and let them also research Industrialization, but hindsight is 20/20. The ToE nets me Electronics and Radio.

Modern Age 1280 AD
For once the tech trick works properly. Greece and Germany get Rocketry, Babylon gets Ecology, Persia Fission and me I get Computers. I research Space Flight, then Superconductor and then Satellites (which I should have left to the AI - dammit). Trade for Synthetic Fibres, then research Nuclear Power and The Laser. Launch in 1570 AD.

I think conquests has a slightly easier tech tree in the IA, too, as radio has been removed.

I also tried the Russians. I didn't pop too many techs and the AI researched almost nothing for me. The 80% ocean/max opponants settings that I chose was a big mistake IMO as none of the AIs got very large and the huts got popped very quickly.

Finish date: 1520AD

I chose all the scientific opponants and then filled the gaps with commercial civs (Rome, Carthage and France). By 1550BC I had made contact with all of them. I found the dates of each ages given by Lord E interesting so I've done the same.

AA (4000BC-1000BC)
researched techs: Wheel, Myst, COL, Phil, Currency, Construction.

I popped a settlement early on but it was in useless land. It provided a few scouts and a couple of workers before I got around to creating a settler by abandoning the town. However the Germans claimed the land that I was looking at and so I ended up wedging a town between two Byzantine settlements. All my towns were on rivers and I had three luxes so I was able to research quite well on my own.

MA (975BC-410AD)
I gifted the AI into the Middle Ages and traded for all three first tier techs. My freebie was Chivalry. However I gifted this to the AI as well and hoped that they would be able to research Invention before I finished the top half. No such luck and so I researched all required techs for myself. IIRC a got a couple of SGLs during this period

IA (420AD-1315AD)
Again the AI gave me nothing but useless optionals. I left Rep Parts until I had nothing else to go for but they were dazzled by the appeal of Democracy, Free Artistry, Military Tradition, Espionage, Navigation, Economics, plus the usual Communism and Fascism. My freebie was Industrialisation but I still ended up researching the rest.

MT (1320AD- )
I timed my ToE build to coincide with entry into Modern Times. I traded for all four first tier techs and then got Space Flight, Miniaturisation and Nuclear Power for free. I left Satellites, Superconductor and Synthetic Fibres for the AI whilst I headed for Robotics. In the end I traded for Supeconductor after four turns of research but that was all the AI gave me. (Apart from Ironclads.)

I guess that I must have taken too much gpt from the AI as well as not giving them enough land for them to grow. I had a fair amount of luck in only getting one optional for my freebies and having the AI get all first tier techs each time but the AIs were pretty useless for researching. I was also lucky in having both uranium and aluminium (plus being able to trade for rubber). Less ocean and less opponants might lead to some stronger AIs though and reduce the finish date.



@AT: Yes, Radio has been removed but don't forget that the Stasis Chamber now requires Robotics which is a very expensive tech to research. I still think that C3C has the edge though; especially if you can get an early SGL to boost tourism.

I just submitted a 1480AD 5CC spaceship victory as Russia. Settings were 70%pangaea, warm, wet, 5byo. Rivals were all the science civs except Babylon. Some earlier tries at 80%pangaea led to running out of huts like Tone. My strategy was similar to Lord Emsworth and Tone, pop techs after trading for the first tier techs with my contacts and after popping an earlier settler and ceremonial burial.

I did pop a settler and ceremonial burial early and researched only mysticism, philosophy and mapmaking, before reaching the MA in about 1470AD as a Republic. Anarchy was only three turns. Trading on the big picture yielded all the first-tier techs and my free tech was invention event though I still did not know the Greeks. At this time I gifted everybody up through invention, in hopes of getting gunpowder before banking and this was successful. The Colossus was built in Moscow and an SGL on Theology gave me the Pyramids also. Two later SGL's were used for the Sistine Chapel and Newton's University. I did have iron and horses in my territory along with two luxes, but did not build any military units beyond my initial warriors. At 1000BC I was 17 turns from education which became about twelve turns later. The lux. slider was generally at 10%, and it was not until I got magnetism that I was able to trade luxuries and lower it to 0%.

The IA was reached in 360AD, and again I got all the first-tier techs and electricity as my free tech on the big picture trading screen. Coal was conveniently located near a city. I gifted everybody all my techs and then researched sanitation first and the rest of the tree until the ai got replaceable parts. That would be the last bit of research help I would get from the ai. Most techs took about eight turns during this period.

The Modern Age was reached in 1260AD and once again I got all the first-tier techs from the big picture screen. The ToE was completed on the same turn and I got nuclear power, synthetic fibers, and miniaturization as my free techs. I skipped the Internet and rushed research labs in all my cities in one turn instead. However, not having a pre-build for Seti in Moscow slowed down my tech pace some in this age. Gifting the ai here was no help, but I was able to trade for oil, uranium, rubber, and aluminum by selling tech. Finally, research of satellites was completed in 1480AD and production swithched to the final part for victory. My final beakers per turn was 1280.


Here is a picture of my lands at victory:

I decided to try a run at this one day. I used Greece (Commercial/Scientific) on PTW. There was no way I could get a good tech pace going, even with Copernicus', Newton's and SETI all in one city.

Finish date was 1790 IIRC. I haven't kept my saves. I might try again using Lord Emsworth's scout trick with the Russians, but i'm not convinced a really early date is possible on PTW.

I think it's very difficult to win this with PTW. I think that to do it, you would have to arrange matters through war where you have a trade partner capable of helping out in the industrial and modern ages, which means they need to be huge and perhaps close to the dom limit.

Tourist money is such a huge help in research...

And yes - if I were using Russia, I would just setup with all the scientific civs and 60% ocean. the tight build was nice for a non-expansionist, cause it gave a lot of resources and fast contacts.