The Old Testament god, a sinner?

On some other threads there has been some discussion of whether the god of the Old Testament has committed sin or not, but those questions have been flooded under other debates.

So here:
(talking with the assumption that those events were real in such way that their legibility can be argued)


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Is the OT god...


...a murderer?

He killed most of the world's population in the global flood, because it was sinful, without giving the people a message of the oncoming destruction and demand to repent. It had no benefits at all, because the descendants of Noah went back to the ways of those times, and it just caused massive inbreeding.

He also killed Job's innocent family just because of a silly bet.


...a liar?

At the end of the global flood, he promised never to destroy mankind again, but that promise was soon forgotten, as the Revelation shows (despite of being a part of the NT, it is more like the OT)


...a fascist?

He had his chosen people, which was valued solely based on its ancestors. This people had the right to push away all other peoples from the Canaan and kill many of them in a correct lebensraum style.
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I'd like to hear some christian opinions on that issue, preferably some theologians too.


And keep the trolls away! This is supposed to be a civilised discussion!

"The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully."

-Richard Dawkins, "The God Delusion"

The God of Off Topic is Perfy, ofc.

lord_joakim said:

The God of Off Topic is Perfy, ofc.

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I guess it is ainwood.

Well, we shouldn't be off-topic or user-specific

It's no longer Off-Topic, stop spamming!

This is an intelligent discussion you know...

I do wonder about that at times here, especially once religion is involved.

The Old Testament god, a sinner?

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The Old Testament god is the most vile evil monstrosity ever conceived. But he loves us!

aneeshm said:

"The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully."

-Richard Dawkins, "The God Delusion"

Click to expand...

Having read most of the OT, I agree with RD.

I've always thought that a thorough read and understanding of the Bible is the surest path to atheism, if one does so form a neutral perspective. If one does read the Bible, starting with the prejudism that God is really the thriving power behind the whole book, well, then one might indeed continue to believe in it.

classical_hero said:

I do wonder about that at times here, especially once religion is involved.

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I want to keep it one

You seem like you might have an opposing opinion. Would you share it?

zxcvbnm said:

On some other threads there has been some discussion of whether the god of the Old Testament has committed sin or not, but those questions have been flooded under other debates.

So here:
(talking with the assumption that those events were real in such way that their legibility can be argued)


---------
Is the OT god...


...a murderer?

He killed most of the world's population in the global flood, because it was sinful, without giving the people a message of the oncoming destruction and demand to repent. It had no benefits at all, because the descendants of Noah went back to the ways of those times, and it just caused massive inbreeding.

He also killed Job's innocent family just because of a silly bet.


...a liar?

At the end of the global flood, he promised never to destroy mankind again, but that promise was soon forgotten, as the Revelation shows (despite of being a part of the NT, it is more like the OT)


...a fascist?

He had his chosen people, which was valued solely based on its ancestors. This people had the right to push away all other peoples from the Canaan and kill many of them in a correct lebensraum style.
---------

I'd like to hear some christian opinions on that issue, preferably some theologians too.


And keep the trolls away! This is supposed to be a civilised discussion!

Click to expand...

Well that's a lot of skewed understanding. I don't have nearly enough time to cover all of this atm, but I can certainly say that the covenant to Noah was to never flood the earth again. If you wil notice, none of the many interpretations of Revelations involves a flooding of the whole earth.

Job? Job's family died because he was being tried and tested. There was no "bet" involved, you greatly misunderstand Satan's temptation.

There's a lot more to it than that, but again, I haven't the time.

The promise was to never again destroy the earth by water. It said nothing about fire or any other means.

Try to think of the Bible in Dharma-speak:
Old Testament: Don't mess with God
New Testament: Jesus loves you

Stapel said:

I've always thought that a thorough read and understanding of the Bible is the surest path to atheism, if one does so form a neutral perspective. If one does read the Bible, starting with the prejudism that God is really the thriving power behind the whole book, well, then one might indeed continue to believe in it.

Click to expand...

I'll tell my story. I used to be a Catholic. I read the Bible from the point of view of praying. I read it as a prayer. Toward the end of reading it, I found the Bible and god to be just horrible. A relatively short time later, I became an atheist.

Nylan said:

Well that's a lot of skewed understanding. I don't have nearly enough time to cover all of this atm, but I can certainly say that the covenant to Noah was to never flood the earth again. If you wil notice, none of the many interpretations of Revelations involves a flooding of the whole earth.

Job? Job's family died because he was being tried and tested. There was no "bet" involved, you greatly misunderstand Satan's temptation.

There's a lot more to it than that, but again, I haven't the time.

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He was tried and tested. His family was killed. Fair?

The flood can be understood in many ways. I think in that way.
Or isn't it a great promise: I won't hang, shoot, strangle, stab, drown or crush you. I only fry you to death

zxcvbnm said:

He was tried and tested. His family was killed. Fair?

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Um, yeah. First off, you can't test a guy who happens to be dead.

Secondly, life isn't supposed to be fair. We're supposed to learn from it. Apparently, it was their time to go. While it is a great tragedy, it ends up being a lot less tragic than you'd think considering the whole living together in the afterlife for eternity thing.

I believe we are all given trials in life, according to what we can handle. Whether or not we live up to our abilities is the one of the founding principles of this earthly life. Job happens to be an incredibly strong guy. He will be (and has already been) rewarded for staying faithful.

@the flood comment: We'll isn't it a good thing he didn't say that then? If you're trying to make a no-flood promise into a no-destruction promise, then of course you're going to be disappointed. That tends to happen when you misquote people and then expect them to live up to your interpretation.

EDIT: And for putting a "don't troll" disclaimer in the OP, you're certainly trying very hard to start a flame war.

Nylan said:

Um, yeah. First off, you can't test a guy who happens to be dead.

Secondly, life isn't supposed to be fair. We're supposed to learn from it. Apparently, it was their time to go. While it is a great tragedy, it ends up being a lot less tragic than you'd think considering the whole living together in the afterlife for eternity thing.

I believe we are all given trials in life, according to what we can handle. Whether or not we live up to our abilities is the one of the founding principles of this earthly life. Job happens to be an incredibly strong guy. He will be (and has already been) rewarded for staying faithful.

@the flood comment: We'll isn't it a good thing he didn't say that then? If you're trying to make a no-flood promise into a no-destruction promise, then of course you're going to be disappointed. That tends to happen when you misquote people and then expect them to live up to your interpretation.

EDIT: And for putting a "don't troll" disclaimer in the OP, you're certainly trying very hard to start a flame war.

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The thing is that the OT god killed innocent people to test someone

@Nylan, stop wasting your time with this thread.

zxcvbnm said:

He was tried and tested. His family was killed. Fair?

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What it is is loathesome and pure evil. I think Christianity needs a new god. Somebody less bloody. Like me!

God, as depicted in the OT, is a huge sinner as seen through the human moral lens.

However, Christianity is based on the premise that God does not sin; he's perfect.

It's a bit of a contradiction, really, but there ya go.

To those who will disagree with me, answer me this: Name one act that God could perform that would be a sin.

I don't often post much, but I think I'll delurk and play err, God's advocate.


As I see it, if the Bible is accepted as true, it would be foolish to attempt to judge God's actions by the standards of man. Here is my understanding of God, if He exists and if the Bible is accurate. Pretty big "if" s but still, here goes.

zxcvbnm said:

---------
Is the OT god...


...a murderer?

He killed most of the world's population in the global flood, because it was sinful, without giving the people a message of the oncoming destruction and demand to repent. It had no benefits at all, because the descendants of Noah went back to the ways of those times, and it just caused massive inbreeding.

He also killed Job's innocent family just because of a silly bet.

Click to expand...

Our universe and everything in it is God's property. He is well within His rights to destroy us all if He just feels bored and wants to watch stuff blow up. His commandments about murder ect, are commands regulating how we interact with each other, His only limits are what He wishes to do. There are also different degrees of dead. We are not just our mortal bodies, our souls live on for eternity even after the body is dust, so God will not be so worried about people dieing, they still exist and He will resurrect their bodies along with everyone else's at the last judgment. In addition, He has a somewhat finer sense of "innocent" than we do, no mortal human is truly innocent in his eyes, we are all sinners, hence the sending of Christ.

...a liar?

At the end of the global flood, he promised never to destroy mankind again, but that promise was soon forgotten, as the Revelation shows (despite of being a part of the NT, it is more like the OT)

Click to expand...

As others have mentioned, the promise was not to destroy the earth by water, still plenty of other ways available.

...a fascist?

He had his chosen people, which was valued solely based on its ancestors. This people had the right to push away all other peoples from the Canaan and kill many of them in a correct lebensraum style.

Click to expand...

It is a strange fascist who sends His only son to die so that all mankind, not just the chosen people have a shot at salvation.

Stapel said:

I've always thought that a thorough read and understanding of the Bible is the surest path to atheism

Click to expand...

The Quickest way to Path A. is through Point B.