Grigori Archmages

Note: MP

Is there any way to stop these?

After very extensive MP testing, I think not. Eighteen (18) collateral nines (9s) is simply too much to bear. Especially turn after turn. With range 5, it is neigh impossible to get assassins onto them, and even if I could, there's a stack of axemen and warriors to take those hits.

EIGHTEEN COLLATERAL NINES
Every turn

My last stack to be killed to the last unit (one survived at 1 hitpoint):

On a hill, in a forest:
Yvain
Lifespark
Kithra
3 Druids
2 Treants
2 Vines
3 Pit Beasts (harl -> Druid)
3 Harls
4 Taskmasters

All dead. 1 turn.

I seriously do not think anything can survive 18 collateral 9s, anywhere, anytime.

Of course, grigori can get archmages around turn 100-120 (quick speed, advanced start default points - 341). So it's not like you have alot of choices to defend with and I'm quite sure that the stack above is the best defensive stack buildable by turn 110.

The only way I see to stop Grigori Archmages is to kill Grigori before they get them. Of course, people who want to play Grigori are not too happy when everyone rushes them every game because Grig-Archmages are unstoppable.

If you let them come into existence, quit trying... the game is over.


ps.

This led me to build shades (beeline Esus then Guilds), which brought up the issue of invis (see other thread). But I really do not want to play a strat just to counter Grig-Archs. Just as I would not like to play Malakim just to counter invis.

Crown of Alkarien is one good defense. Pick it up, and you're immune to all those shots. Put it on the right character, and all those units would survive, easily able to run in and kill the archmages he's built up.

Fire resistance and first strikes also helps alot in surviving big blasts of meteors.

Finally, don't keep all your units in a stack, and harass them with cavalry. 6 movement in your territory is plenty to get to the mages. 6 Horsemen will take out 1-3 archmages, and the horsemen are alot easier to build .

Edit: I did miss the other defenders, though I have a hard time believing that they have quite as big of a stack as you say on turn 100-120, even on quick. Either way, a mixed set of harassers can take care of that group in your territory.

The stack of druids was mine. And I can do it on turn 90 (a few turns needed for promos after the druids are upgraded and yvain is built makes it a 100-110 strat), quick speed, advanced start (default tiny, 341 points). No_barbs. Blessing.

The archmages, available around the same time, come with a mix of warriors and axemen only. Note: only Grig can make arches at ~100. Any other civ will not have xp on adepts/mages (don't forget to promote + upgrade for faster xp!) until turn ~125.

The archs are 6 tiles away (they shoot 5). I'd like to harrass them and horses might help, but the first time 18 collateral 9s hit, I'm all dead.

Perhaps you are underestimating the impact of getting hit by 18 units, that are 9s, and do collateral. Every turn. At turn ~110. Even at turn 140, they kill all.

The crown is too expensive in MP, and I really don't think it is possible to build before turn 110 (settings above) anyway. Ring of warding is also mad expensive and useless (20% means nothing).


Thanks though, I'll try the horses. But, in order to harass them, you must survive 1 turn. Please, tell me what can survive 18 collateral 9s that reduce culture to 0% with 3-4 mets. Nothing does. I've tried Druids, Paladins, Champions, Stygian, Royal, etc...

No stack survives 18 col 9s. No way, no how. How can you harass when everything dies on turn 1 of the war?

I cannot stress this enough:

EIGHTEEN collateral 9s

Eighteen

18

I know how powerful that is, and how it will tear up a stack. That part I'm certainly not debating (which is why I'd always upgrade tanks in vanilla for collateral over anything else ).

Here's another quick solution, though you have to be somewhat prepared... summon 1 fire elemental. Yep, just get your druids to summon 1 fire elemental, and none of your units die. They still take collateral, but it allows for some major retribution (especially with your lifespark). That is, assuming the Grigori player still decides to stick around and blast away at your fire elemental strictly for the collateral damage .

EIGHTEEN collateral 0s isn't so bad.

Arqane said:

Crown of Alkarien is one good defense. Pick it up, and you're immune to all those shots. Put it on the right character, and all those units would survive, easily able to run in and kill the archmages he's built up.

Fire resistance and first strikes also helps alot in surviving big blasts of meteors.

Finally, don't keep all your units in a stack, and harass them with cavalry. 6 movement in your territory is plenty to get to the mages. 6 Horsemen will take out 1-3 archmages, and the horsemen are alot easier to build .

Edit: I did miss the other defenders, though I have a hard time believing that they have quite as big of a stack as you say on turn 100-120, even on quick. Either way, a mixed set of harassers can take care of that group in your territory.

Click to expand...

You don't really have an idea about the massive collateral damage these meteors cause.
All units you ever built in your life in civ&ffh together will die against it.
You should play against them, you will see.

Even if you have a stack of about 50! high promoted units with strength 10, which is max for a non national unit, it will die (if you have luck) in 5 turns after being damaged, again and again, and you can't reach the enemy because of the distance (mobility + road). No way.
Fire immunity and so on doesnt help. No way.

If there is ever a MP balance issue, the magic resistance must be fixed.
A unit which is "immune" to fire damage can't suffer collateral or direct attack damage from meteors. It's wrong.

Arqane said:

I know how powerful that is, and how it will tear up a stack. That part I'm certainly not debating (which is why I'd always upgrade tanks in vanilla for collateral over anything else ).

Here's another quick solution, though you have to be somewhat prepared... summon 1 fire elemental. Yep, just get your druids to summon 1 fire elemental, and none of your units die. They still take collateral, but it allows for some major retribution (especially with your lifespark). That is, assuming the Grigori player still decides to stick around and blast away at your fire elemental strictly for the collateral damage .

EIGHTEEN collateral 0s isn't so bad.

Click to expand...

One fire elemental is not enough. all units under it will die from the collateral damage.

Cool, thanks. I hate going fire mana, but that seems like a possible survival. Collateral alone, even from 18 9s, shouldn't kill the whole stack.

Of course, by researching Ether and building a mage guild and adept, I'm pushing my strat back ~10 turns, but if grig has reagents, it will be worth it.

I could also use a Tier III Entropy Summon (Balor).

Problem:

I don't know how to get entropy (or fire, for that matter) on a druid. Druids are not arcane. I only get chaos and mind mana because I upgrade from harliquin. Summoners take turn ~140 (can't lightbulb the techs with elemental, sorcery, and then alteration taking sage lightbulb priority).

Is there a summoning hero with arcane? Sure, like 3. Only they could summon the Fire elemental in time. Unless there is a unit that starts with fire (ritualist) that can be upgraded to a national unit with summoning. Best bet: Gibbon (Esus hero). Of course, if you are going Esus, just send Shades to destroy Grigori before Adepts and Mages (adventurers) upgrade to Arch.

I'm well aware, and that's why there's magic immunity. Crown of Alkarien will save you if you manage to get it.

Speaking of, with the change in Shadow, it's REALLY easy now, since you don't even need channeling 3 characters. Any stack of yours with a summoner can get the L2 Azer and render the stack immune to fire. Sure, it'll beat on your defenses, but you can have a summoner in each city and one on a counter-mage unit without much difficulty. Then any civ that strictly works off of fire magic is going to be crying.

Oh, and I did forget about the druids without fire... my bad.

Ecofarm said:

I cannot stress this enough:

EIGHTEEN collateral 9s

Eighteen

18

Click to expand...

lol -- too funny!

leo. said:

One fire elemental is not enough. all units under it will die from the collateral damage.

Click to expand...

Collateral damage has a maximum (or did last time I checked). It would be wise to have some stack that can counter the threat so they don't keep pounding on you, but that's very possible.

Arqane said:

I'm well aware, and that's why there's magic immunity. Crown of Alkarien will save you if you manage to get it.

Speaking of, with the change in Shadow, it's REALLY easy now, since you don't even need channeling 3 characters. Any stack of yours with a summoner can get the L2 Azer and render the stack immune to fire. Sure, it'll beat on your defenses, but you can have a summoner in each city and one on a counter-mage unit without much difficulty. Then any civ that strictly works off of fire magic is going to be crying.

Click to expand...

I really do not think Crown is doable before turn 120. And even if it was, does it give magic immunity to all units in city, or just all units built in city. Because after building crown, there will be no time to build a new army.

The Azer sounds good. Although I usually do not research ether, or elementalism, or sumoning, or build adepts.

I think it is the best bet for surviving - Azers. +20 turns to strat (ether, elementalism, summoning, guild, adepts). Building the adepts early enough to upgrade to conjureres is going to be near impossible. I have alot of other things I need to build from turn 45-55 (when the adepts will need to be complete to get conjurers before turn 110).

If you are going to build conjurers with fire - that is almost a strat in itself, not something cheap and easy to tack onto an existing strat.

But at least it is a possibility.

In the end, I think it is easier to just go Shades and rush grig - every game - just in case they get reagents.

Surviving with Azers is a pain, requires a strat in and of itself, and is not anywhere near gaurenteed to survive. The collateral from 18 9s can add up.

For those would like to test:

Hamachi:
network: FFH3
pw: ffh

Playciv2849 (and perhaps I) will be happy to slaughter you numerous times with Grig-archs.

After you have fought 3 grig-archmages 20+ times, at turn 110 (like I have), perhaps you will be more sympathetic to my crying. I only win against them when the player makes a mistake (steps onto desert without meteors blocking, etc). If he's careful, there is no competition unless I play to counter him (Esus Shades), and that pisses him off <smilie> (because he can't survive it - just like me, with ANY strat, vs grig-archs in existance).

Note: unrestricted leaders, Dain with Grig (and Kandros with Bals). Unrestricted leaders is way more fun than normal - you can mix and match a hundred strats. But one of them: Dain Grig, seems unstoppable once archs are upgraded early (philo bulbing Strength of Will).

Yeah, though at least it's something that every civ can do as a possibility.

Though I just tested it, and need to report this on the bug thread. Fire immunity/Magic immunity is not working correctly. Meteors are killing Azers and Fire Elementals with ease currently.

But when it's working correctly, it should be a good strategy.

Cool, thanks for the help testing.

However, only Dain-Grigori can get archs at ~100. No-one else gets the xp in time on adepts and mages (~125 for other Arcane leaders), and you need philo to get Strength of Will early.

If you meant the Azers, yea - anyone can grab those to counter archs. I think. (With the extra 20 turns to get techs - early, and sacrificing whatever you build from 45-60 by building adepts).

Noob interjection!: What's a collateral nine?

Ecofarm: in 1v1, any half-ways decent player will rush you to death before you get those archmages. This is really a case of long-term strat--don't let them get there. Remember that if you want to get 6 adventurers by that time, you will have to actively avoid any other great people. That means no academy in your capital or elsewhere, that means no golden ages for a quick boost, etc. Also, if you're researching toward Archmage, there's a sweet spot (quite a big one at that) for your enemy where they'll easily have the tech and production to build a huge stack of champions and you won't have anything ready to counter them.

Again, this is quite simply a case of good scouting. You see your enemy going for something like this? You push immediately. They won't get those archmages.

Of course if you're playing an FFA with 3 or more players were being the first to attack is almost always a disadvantage things are different. But I don't believe an FFA can ever be fair. Still, I'd take my chances in an FFA as well and just rush in with the strongest melee I have.

Someone came up with a strat.

Unrestricted leader (not sure who)

Luchuirp + machinery gets 6 national units (none require religion).
+ FoL (for healer, Yvain)

3 crossbow and 3 berzerker replacements (available at machinery, for some reason) and a stack of gargoyles. Something survives, promotes to city defense 3, and gets healed by Yvain - stalemating the archs.

However, non-living 1 move units are near worthless in quick speed attacks (only movement is not scaled), so the next step is to make the strat offensive-possible.

Gratz to the person who figured this strat out (I'm not sure he wants to be named).

Bringa said:

Remember that if you want to get 6 adventurers by that time, you will have to actively avoid any other great people. That means no academy in your capital or elsewhere, that means no golden ages for a quick boost, etc. Also, if you're researching toward Archmage, there's a sweet spot (quite a big one at that) for your enemy where they'll easily have the tech and production to build a huge stack of champions and you won't have anything ready to counter them.

Again, this is quite simply a case of good scouting. You see your enemy going for something like this? You push immediately. They won't get those archmages.

Of course if you're playing an FFA with 3 or more players were being the first to attack is almost always a disadvantage things are different. But I don't believe an FFA can ever be fair. Still, I'd take my chances in an FFA as well and just rush in with the strongest melee I have.

Click to expand...

3 adventurers. Upgrade to adept, mage, archmage, twincast = 18 mets.

Then lightbulb sorcery, arcane lore, and strength of will with whatever sages don't pop as un-needed adventurers. Of course, the Girgori world spell helps, as does the great library.

Regarding rushes, true: but we don't like to rush with mundane units. We could play BTS and do that, while getting groups of 8 people in 5 minutes instead of an hour. Also, I get my Druids in time to rush a pre-arch grigori.

The point is, I'd like to be able to survive them without an early rush.

So far, it looks like Luchuirp + unrestricted leader + world spell (free engineer AND forges on turn 1?!) + machinery.

We play FFA with 4-6 ppl. Come play.

Hamachi

Networks (case-sensitive):
FFH3
and/or
FFH_Ecofarm

Password (for both, also case-sensitive):
ffh

That is where no rock-paper-scissors system. Yes, there are some civs and situations which maybe can protect from this threat but no general way.
OK what are specific ways to resist.
- Early war.
- Some world spells (Lanun in the sea, Ljosalfar, Sidar)
- Hippus may have enough strong and fast army to break the stack.
- CoE and shadows.
- Proposed manipultions with fire-immune summons.
... ? Did not find other ways. I think magic resistant leaders does not give enough protection.

In general I think this hole can be well-patched by no mobility to fireballs and meteors. That should be almost enough.

Well, there's the big problem then. You're restricting yourselves to one game-type. It's not entirely fair to say "we don't like early rushes, could play BtS for that too." Obviously FFH becomes MORE unique as time passes, but even the beginning is different, and a rush is not necessarily the end of the game. Also, you don't need to do an early game rush to stop archmages. Mid game is still sufficient.

Again, FFAs are chaotic (which is why I don't like them very much). What I'd probably try to do would be to cripple the grigori, raze one or two outlying cities, and then retreat instead of dedicating all my military to that war (which is always when you get attacked in an ffa).

Concerning your game: are you playing with sim turns on? 4-6 players is a lot. Simultaneous turns have the advantage of making the game MUCH faster (4-6 times faster in that case ;P) but the huge disadvantage of turning every war into a hectic game of who-clicks-first (moving units away from the enemy, taking advantage of attack promotions, casting buffs/debuffs before the enemy can act etc).

To be perfectly honest, I prefer playing small games--1v1s. However, if my usual 1v1 partner has no time tonight I'll check your hamachi group and see if I can find someone there

Yes, we play simultaneous turns, and yes - it detracts from the strategy. I hate "who clicks fastest" too.

The time reduction is not necessarily 4-6 times. If everyone clicks in right away (because later people had time to decide what they will do), then it is not too much slower. But I find no support for non-simultaneous turns in the MP community in general

Practice clicking fast!

Hope to see you there, even if we must live with "click victories".