The Immortal Challenge 4: Flight of the Phoenix

But Archers upgrade to Grenadiers.

siggboy said:

Actually nothing upgrades to Musketmen, as I just realize. Well, that certainly takes off some of the pressure, then.

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I wonder why that is? Game balance perhaps?

Neato said:

I wonder why that is? Game balance perhaps?

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Assuming you're not being sarcastic. Gunpowder is fairly easy to reach (beeline), so being able to upgrade all your Longbows in a pinch would be imbalancing. The current game actually shows it already.
You can go Longbow -> Riflemen, but they require a lot more techs (guilds, banking, etc. etc.).

siggboy said:

Assuming you're not being sarcastic. Gunpowder is fairly easy to reach (beeline), so being able to upgrade all your Longbows in a pinch would be imbalancing. The current game actually shows it already.
You can go Longbow -> Riflemen, but they require a lot more techs (guilds, banking, etc. etc.).

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I guess what I meant to say was that Longbows -> Musketmen would have been entirely imbalancing and my question was intended to draw attention to that. I wasn't necessarily being sarcastic or serious, but then I really shouldn't be wasting people's time with any hypothetical question that crosses my mind - my apologies.
In any case, if someone really was wondering why that was the case, now they know - so perhaps someone's curiosity was assuaged. Right?

No offense taken .

I was quite keen on preventing a repeat of IC3, though, where we had to face tons of cavalry and other units. The AI tends to start building up at this period. For that game we had Redcoats to ease the pressure. Not in this game.

I did consider the draft city idea. That's why, in the last update, I talked about whether Drama should be next or whether it's too late (since the draft city takes time to set up and to be used). Sorry for not making it clear. Sometimes I make the assumption that readers are familiar with most of the ideas that have been discussed, and, in this particular example, because it was done in IC3. I hope I haven't put new readers off with something more obscure.

Anyway, yes, the round is done. I don't know if it's good or bad. Could be both. But I guess that's what makes an IC a nail-biter

Can't wait for the update!

Personnally I wouldn't try to hit gengis.
I would send him against shaka to get a diplo bonus (common struggle + you helped us, if you can get him to attack before you do).
But I see you're already done, and it's worthless to "redo" what's already done.

Why would Khan want to attack Shaka, though? They are best friends, and Khan isn't backward enough to be massively bribed.

cabert said:

Personnally I wouldn't try to hit gengis.
I would send him against shaka to get a diplo bonus (common struggle + you helped us, if you can get him to attack before you do).

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If anything, we're lucky Khan didn't attack us the first time we hit Shaka. There's simply no way Khan would agree to fight him for us. Hitting Khan or Khan and Shaka would the only reasonable course for war at this point, diplomacy be damned! It's what the Jannisaries have been destined to do since our peoples shed their nomadic life and decided to plant their roots on this continent.

Anyway, I'm just excited for the update.

aelf said:

Why would Khan want to attack Shaka, though? They are best friends, and Khan isn't backward enough to be massively bribed.

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because he attacks anyone for a price?
lack of bribe is certainly a problem, though

cabert said:

because he attacks anyone for a price?
lack of bribe is certainly a problem, though

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For the sake of edification, if indeed Khan could be bribed to attack Shaka, how would this benefit us?

I assumed that being in a state of war would cause Khan to push up his war production, thus making him harder to hit when we were ready to go to war with him. It's not like Shaka is going to weedle his forces down too much with his few cities...

it was about going for a diplomatic victory, but I guess it's too late and it's not relevant

cabert said:

it was about going for a diplomatic victory, but I guess it's too late and it's not relevant

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I see what you're saying.

Can't wait for the update.

Sorry for the slow update again. I had an exam and start of term stuff to settle. I'm working on the update now. I'll definitely be able to post at least the first half of the update tomorrow.

I never understood the wonderspam strategy, and still don't. So you get small bonuses in your emtire empire, which is likely to be a very small, some GPP's that don't turn into great persons unless the wonder's in your GP farm(s), and a lot of production that could have went somewhere else. Plus you need a good tech rate.

I tried doing it, it worked in the sense that I could get a good space-race time at prince difficulty, but at that difficulty many things could've worked.

sylvanllewelyn said:

I never understood the wonderspam strategy, and still don't. So you get small bonuses in your emtire empire, which is likely to be a very small, some GPP's that don't turn into great persons unless the wonder's in your GP farm(s), and a lot of production that could have went somewhere else. Plus you need a good tech rate.

I tried doing it, it worked in the sense that I could get a good space-race time at prince difficulty, but at that difficulty many things could've worked.

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I think it's more a matter of analyzing the available wonders carefully, selecting those that will benefit you the most, and then playing in such a way as to maximize those benefits. Building the Pyramids, for example, and then running a specialist economy boosted by early Representation can result in huge bonuses, not just small ones. Or building the Great Library and National Epic in your GP farm, running the Caste System civic, and generating Great Scientists to lightbulb your way through to Liberalism.

However, building wonders just because you can is sub-optimal at best, suicidal at worst.

sylvanllewelyn said:

I never understood the wonderspam strategy, and still don't. So you get small bonuses in your emtire empire, which is likely to be a very small, some GPP's that don't turn into great persons unless the wonder's in your GP farm(s), and a lot of production that could have went somewhere else. Plus you need a good tech rate.

I tried doing it, it worked in the sense that I could get a good space-race time at prince difficulty, but at that difficulty many things could've worked.

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I agree with Sisiutil. I always loved building wonders, and would always plan out which one's I'd want and really fight for them to get the specific bonuses and boosts (as well as deny the AI from them). I'm now playing the game with an Industrial leader and things have gotten a little out of hand. I have wonders galore (mainly in two cities, then quite a few more in a third), and as a result I've had more specialists and great people than I know what to do with. Not only that, but my economy is out of this world and my research never disappoints. I think the bonuses really do add up, especially if you put things in the right places.

Nevermind, didn't see something at first.

Round 8: 1232AD - 1406AD

We finally get to see combat this round. Err, well not really 'finally', but this time you can be sure it's more exciting.

We headed up the Chemistry tree (heh, lame rhyme) for grenadiers in case Khan gets riflemen. And we went about scouting his cities to check out his ability to resist. First city was the holy city of Beshebalik. It didn't seem to have much. Then we went to scout his capital. Surprisingly, it didn't have a big attack stack either:



Reasonable defense, but nothing scary. Our HA headed west and found something more interesting:



That looks like something. Still, nothing to be afraid of.

Meanwhile, as we were ready for the draft, we switched to Nationalism:



Since we could only draft from 3 cities at a time, it was good to start drafting then. The drafted troops that we would use in our invasion also needed time to move to the assembly point.

Heading east now to the rest of the Mongolian empire, our HA saw more signs of potential resistance:



Still not very impressed anyway.

Then Shaka, who is still quite buddy with us, offered a trade:



Unfortunately, I forgot to take the screenshot before agreeing, and I can't remember what it was. It was probably a resource thing. Nothing terribly exciting.

Next turn, we met the last of the existing civs:



Dour as always. Not that we have much to fear or gain from him now anyway. There's one thing he was useful for, however. He was at war with Huayna, the then-tech leader and seemed to be winning:



He had captured another Inca city earlier. Now these events will surely put a wrench in Huayna's development. We still have to worry about Roosevelt, though.

But that's not all. It seems that Monty got Khan to declare war on Huayna as well:



This seems like the best chance we'd get to attack Khan anytime soon, so it's good thing that we were almost ready to do it.

And, more good luck, gems were found at Edirne:



This would only add to the beakers that are generated by the Great Library in that city

By the way, you can see our stack in that screenshot, parked at and ready to leave Sakae for Beshebalik. Indeed, soon, it was time:



A few turns into our DoW, Genghis conjured up a stack that I had never seen:



And our HA went to every city to check! I must have missed something. Oh well, nothing but to try beefing up the defense in Sakae and whip walls and castle now.

We had a reasonable chance of holding Sakae, and it seemed that Beshebalik would fall easily to our stack. But Genghis pulled yet another surprise. As we were bombarding Beshebalik's defenses, this happened:



As I feared, Genghis got riflemen and, expectedly, upgraded his longbows instantly! We can't turn back now. I guess we'd have to see a case of fighting from a less technologically advanced position...

[to be continued...]