Quotey
Emperor
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I don't understand. How do you figure you lose these amounts of turns?
The Immortal Challenge 4: Flight of the Phoenix
- Thread starter aelf
- Start date
I don't understand. How do you figure you lose these amounts of turns?
Bleys
Deity
Well, in the long run, putting a Mine on that hill instead of your city will net you more hammers. However, it takes a WHILE for that investment to show a return. The hammer/turn now is a bigger deal than the 4 (+30 for the forest, but thats a wash, since the other spot is a forest too, hence my other suggestion of 1SW, on the river plains, first turn) you will get later.
I think what oz is referring to is the loss of that hammer by moving.
I think what oz is referring to is the loss of that hammer by moving.
from fresh water. especially for the capital, +2futurehermit
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Fresh water is not that big of a deal imo. With expansive, harbors, granary, and grocer it will take awhile to cap out health. One might argue that the fresh water pays dividends earlier, but so does that hammer from settling on the hill.
Galileo44
Great Scientist
I'll throw my vote out there for 1S, especially if it has water.
MyOtherName
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The early problem with the starting tile is the food glut; there aren't enough hills for hammer production. 1S, on the other hand, has at least two extra hills. At the happiness cap of 5, settling in place will give 1
15
1
, while settling 1S will give 164. (optimizing for )
We see what appears to be flood plains to the West, ordinary plains to the South, flatland to the North, and water to the East. There's the real possibility that the capitol is the only good production site nearby! (Unless we're willing to pack our cities closely)
As for the healthiness limits -- if we go with hereditary rule, the capitol has the ability to produce a large food surplus, so it is capable of reaching the healthiness cap pretty swiftly. If we go with representation, though, *shrug*. Do remember we have 2 bonus happiness from the unique building, though!
151, while settling 1S will give 164. (optimizing for )We see what appears to be flood plains to the West, ordinary plains to the South, flatland to the North, and water to the East. There's the real possibility that the capitol is the only good production site nearby! (Unless we're willing to pack our cities closely)
As for the healthiness limits -- if we go with hereditary rule, the capitol has the ability to produce a large food surplus, so it is capable of reaching the healthiness cap pretty swiftly. If we go with representation, though, *shrug*. Do remember we have 2 bonus happiness from the unique building, though!
aelf
Ashen One
Well, the round has been played, guys. So no more votes are needed. You just have to guess what happened till I post the update (hopefully tomorrow) 
90/5=18 90/6=15 so in the first 19 turns the southern spot have lost 4 turns(3 turns longer producing the worker and 1 turn of movement with the settler). just cause on turn 19 in place complete the wheat farm(this is even more unbalanced with early AH) while the s spot complete the worker. In place then gives 4 surplus food and 3 surplus hammers per turn compared to the southern spot gives 2 food 2 hammers. So until the closest resources are hooked up it will lose almost a full production(including food of course) turn per turn until it get the same improvements. Of course if he avoid teching towards the required worker techs it'll be worse for the in place spot as the worker can't do much anyways... 4 turns lost in the first 19 turns then 4 turns lost in slow improvements then a number of turns lost as it gets to pop 2 slower(full production turns, if you count in northern spot turns it will be somewhat better for the southern spot as a "turn" obviously give more though the same amount of production and food will still be lost...).
I know it's irrelevant now since the round has been played, but...
How do you figure settling one south gives 2 extra hills?
You lose the grassland hill in the N and you gain the plains hill the settler is currently standing on. The 3 tiles in the south are obscured, but none of them suggest hill to me.
As for a food glut, I wouldn't worry too much - the capital can always whip workers and should be working specialists ASAP. I agree that fishing will probably not needed for a while for that reason however.
MyOtherName said:
How do you figure settling one south gives 2 extra hills?
You lose the grassland hill in the N and you gain the plains hill the settler is currently standing on. The 3 tiles in the south are obscured, but none of them suggest hill to me.
As for a food glut, I wouldn't worry too much - the capital can always whip workers and should be working specialists ASAP. I agree that fishing will probably not needed for a while for that reason however.
MyOtherName
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The tile S of pigs, and the one SW of pigs, look hilly to me; grassland and plains respectively. I can't tell what terrain is SE of pigs. Neither of those two tiles are flat, like the one to their left, which is clearly flat plains.
The funny thing is that I can see that -- but I can't see that the starting tile is a plains hill.
aelf
Ashen One
Apologies for the delay. I've been a little too tired the past few days. I should be able to get the round posted during the weekend.
aelf
Ashen One
Round 1: 4000BC - 2260BC
Indeed, the body of water to the SE was a lake. So, as I have stipulated, we settled 1S:
Aha! Settling the city revealed gold to the south. That would come in very handy in the near future. There is also another fish tile, but it is out of reach and would be so even if we had settled on the starting spot. Meanwhile, our warrior popped the hut, giving us 44 gold. He then went on to explore towards the south, in the direction of the gold resource.
Our first build was a worker, since we start with Agriculture and could farm the wheat as soon as a worker is built. And I decided to research Fishing first, so that we could make use of the fish (good food and commerce) as early as possible.
We met a neighbour quite early:
Not a very good one, unfortunately... We can reasonably expect trouble in the future.
Our exploring warrior popped another hut to the south:
Besides the good fortune of getting 50 gold from the hut, we also discovered that there are gems in the jungles to the south near the gold. And with the river there, I imagine that makes for a very good spot for a future city.
Back in the capital, our worker was completed, and he went to farm the wheat. Our next build was a fishing boat:
Some of you might disagree with this, but since growth would be greatly hastened after the wheat had been farmed, I decided to work the forest silk first for hammers to speed up the construction of the workboat and a bit of commerce.
And, as you can see from the screenshot, we researched Mining after Fishing so that we could research Bronze Working next for chopping, whipping and finding copper. Better be safe than sorry on Immortal.
And, indeed, we better be safe than sorry, considering who we met next:
Two warlike neighbours. Sounds like we have to be on alert this game. Can't let the power graph be too low.
Once the wheat was farmed, I set our capital to work the tile for faster growth:
Our city soon grew to size 2, and I set the new citizen on the grassland hill (which our worker had already mined) to speed up the construction of the workboat:
And when the workboat was completed and the fish hooked up, I switched him to the fish tile to hasten growth again:
Our exploring warrior was still surviving, but one warrior was hardly sufficient to explore our surroundings, so we finally started training our second warrior. When the third citizen was born, the mine was staffed again to speed up the production:
[to be continued in the next post]
Indeed, the body of water to the SE was a lake. So, as I have stipulated, we settled 1S:
Aha! Settling the city revealed gold to the south. That would come in very handy in the near future. There is also another fish tile, but it is out of reach and would be so even if we had settled on the starting spot. Meanwhile, our warrior popped the hut, giving us 44 gold. He then went on to explore towards the south, in the direction of the gold resource.
Our first build was a worker, since we start with Agriculture and could farm the wheat as soon as a worker is built. And I decided to research Fishing first, so that we could make use of the fish (good food and commerce) as early as possible.
We met a neighbour quite early:
Not a very good one, unfortunately... We can reasonably expect trouble in the future.
Our exploring warrior popped another hut to the south:
Besides the good fortune of getting 50 gold from the hut, we also discovered that there are gems in the jungles to the south near the gold. And with the river there, I imagine that makes for a very good spot for a future city.
Back in the capital, our worker was completed, and he went to farm the wheat. Our next build was a fishing boat:
Some of you might disagree with this, but since growth would be greatly hastened after the wheat had been farmed, I decided to work the forest silk first for hammers to speed up the construction of the workboat and a bit of commerce.
And, as you can see from the screenshot, we researched Mining after Fishing so that we could research Bronze Working next for chopping, whipping and finding copper. Better be safe than sorry on Immortal.
And, indeed, we better be safe than sorry, considering who we met next:
Two warlike neighbours. Sounds like we have to be on alert this game. Can't let the power graph be too low.
Once the wheat was farmed, I set our capital to work the tile for faster growth:
Our city soon grew to size 2, and I set the new citizen on the grassland hill (which our worker had already mined) to speed up the construction of the workboat:
And when the workboat was completed and the fish hooked up, I switched him to the fish tile to hasten growth again:
Our exploring warrior was still surviving, but one warrior was hardly sufficient to explore our surroundings, so we finally started training our second warrior. When the third citizen was born, the mine was staffed again to speed up the production:
[to be continued in the next post]
aelf
Ashen One
[continued from previous post]
By now, as you can see from last few screenshots, research on BW was well under way.
Meanwhile, speaking of our warrior, he encountered the first border of another civ down south :
So Genghis is beyond the jungle to the south. This can potentially be dangerous, since jungle is no impediment for Keshiks but it is for our units, giving the Khan a strategic advantage in the case of war. Let's hope that situation doesn't materialise...
A few turns later, as we were building our third warrior for garrison purposes, our capital was about to grow into unhappiness, so I made an adjustment:
I didn't want to slow the research on BW down, and the lake tile gave the highest commerce after the fish, so I moved the fisherman to the lake. I planned to have the city build the warrior on the same turn it would grow, and this happened with another adjustment on the next turn:
The forest silk was turning out to be quite handy. Next, since our research was almost done, our capital started on the first settler in anticipation of discovering copper:
Unfortunately, it turned out that there was none to be found near us:
We hadn't managed to explore much of the western region, though, so there may be hope. But I decided to research Animal Husbandry next anyway, just in case. In the meantime, Istanbul built another warrior with pretty much the same arrangement as before except that we're now working the fish as well since growth has slowed:
This warrior will be needed to escort the settler to the destined city site, since by now we have lost our original warrior to a barb archer.
Soon, we finished researching AH. Guess where horses are discovered:
The good news is if we had settled on the spot, we would still have missed it, so we didn't lose it. The bad news is Shaka had settled a city near it, though not claiming it. Well, not settling on our starting location mean we can place a decent city to claim it, so that's another piece of good news. There's still no sign of copper, though. And, look, Genghis has horses nearby too. Not a good thing.
Anyway, here are some possible sites for our horse city:
Site A is better, with the river and flood plains and all, but it is very close to Shaka's city, so we would have to expect a fierce culture war until we seize that city. B has the advantage of being on the coast and having fewer tiles overlapping that of the capital, not that it's necessarily a bad thing if we apply the filler city strategy.
And here's a possible commerce city site in the south:
River, grasslands, gold and gems. This would make a monster commerce city after we clear away the jungle. Sounds good to you?
So, what do we do next? We probably have to settle the horse city to be on the safe side. We can revolt to Slavery and whip out the settler in 1 turn at the cost of 1 pop (I usually whip for 2, but I forgot that you get 45 hammers per pop on Epic). Which site do we pick, though? And what should we research next? Masonry so we can hook up the stone and build the Pyramids? Or does war with Shaka come first? Can we do both if we fight a limited war?
As usual, the save is included below.
By now, as you can see from last few screenshots, research on BW was well under way.
Meanwhile, speaking of our warrior, he encountered the first border of another civ down south :
So Genghis is beyond the jungle to the south. This can potentially be dangerous, since jungle is no impediment for Keshiks but it is for our units, giving the Khan a strategic advantage in the case of war. Let's hope that situation doesn't materialise...
A few turns later, as we were building our third warrior for garrison purposes, our capital was about to grow into unhappiness, so I made an adjustment:
I didn't want to slow the research on BW down, and the lake tile gave the highest commerce after the fish, so I moved the fisherman to the lake. I planned to have the city build the warrior on the same turn it would grow, and this happened with another adjustment on the next turn:
The forest silk was turning out to be quite handy. Next, since our research was almost done, our capital started on the first settler in anticipation of discovering copper:
Unfortunately, it turned out that there was none to be found near us:
We hadn't managed to explore much of the western region, though, so there may be hope. But I decided to research Animal Husbandry next anyway, just in case. In the meantime, Istanbul built another warrior with pretty much the same arrangement as before except that we're now working the fish as well since growth has slowed:
This warrior will be needed to escort the settler to the destined city site, since by now we have lost our original warrior to a barb archer.
Soon, we finished researching AH. Guess where horses are discovered:
The good news is if we had settled on the spot, we would still have missed it, so we didn't lose it. The bad news is Shaka had settled a city near it, though not claiming it. Well, not settling on our starting location mean we can place a decent city to claim it, so that's another piece of good news. There's still no sign of copper, though. And, look, Genghis has horses nearby too. Not a good thing.
Anyway, here are some possible sites for our horse city:
Site A is better, with the river and flood plains and all, but it is very close to Shaka's city, so we would have to expect a fierce culture war until we seize that city. B has the advantage of being on the coast and having fewer tiles overlapping that of the capital, not that it's necessarily a bad thing if we apply the filler city strategy.
And here's a possible commerce city site in the south:
River, grasslands, gold and gems. This would make a monster commerce city after we clear away the jungle. Sounds good to you?
So, what do we do next? We probably have to settle the horse city to be on the safe side. We can revolt to Slavery and whip out the settler in 1 turn at the cost of 1 pop (I usually whip for 2, but I forgot that you get 45 hammers per pop on Epic
). Which site do we pick, though? And what should we research next? Masonry so we can hook up the stone and build the Pyramids? Or does war with Shaka come first? Can we do both if we fight a limited war?As usual, the save is included below.
Well played and informative aelf. Haven't really read your previous threads considering I've only been around for a month or 2-3 but this was a good read.
I'd vote to settle that horse city B asap and rush shaka with chariots. I think site B is more profitable IF you decide to keep shaka's city and not replace it.
I would try to aim at getting shaka's capital if possible. There's marble there, early war might miss you some early wonders but I think it'll give you a much better position overall. If successful, having both stone and marble for future wonders and in addition have plenty of land to settle. I'm just trowing it in as an option.
I'd vote to settle that horse city B asap and rush shaka with chariots. I think site B is more profitable IF you decide to keep shaka's city and not replace it.
I would try to aim at getting shaka's capital if possible. There's marble there, early war might miss you some early wonders but I think it'll give you a much better position overall. If successful, having both stone and marble for future wonders and in addition have plenty of land to settle. I'm just trowing it in as an option.
Shaka might have copper, and he will have BW by the time you're ready for a war ... he wouldn't need many Impis to stop a Chariot rush. I'd stay peaceful and tech to Iron Working fast, for the units and maybe help in finding a good spot for a production powerhouse, but if you want to try the Chariots, be real fast about it and leave the Pyramids for later. I'm against a limited war, you'd have to constantly worry about him trying to take revenge at the worst time. If you attack, take him out completely.
A shame there's no food resource near the gold and gems.
A shame there's no food resource near the gold and gems.
futurehermit
Deity
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Looks like moving inland would've been a good outcome meaning you could've settled on the stone for a city that could work both fish. No way you could've known about the 2nd fish placement though.
I am with the camp that thinks that chariot rushing Shaka's impis might not be the strongest play if it comes down to that. War with Shaka seems unavoidable though. I would say IW is a priority, esp with the commerce city needing a lot of jungle hacked down. Really low food start which is unfortunate. Looking forward to seeing how it plays out as always.
I am with the camp that thinks that chariot rushing Shaka's impis might not be the strongest play if it comes down to that. War with Shaka seems unavoidable though. I would say IW is a priority, esp with the commerce city needing a lot of jungle hacked down. Really low food start which is unfortunate. Looking forward to seeing how it plays out as always.
LightSpectra
me autem minui
Mm, city C looks delicious. Might be a little dangerous to settle that before the horse city, maybe we can bribe Shaka and Genghis with something?
Bleys
Deity
I like the idea of rushing Shaka too, but as it has been said, if he has copper, it would probably cost you the game, since you would lose so much time and gain nothing but a bitter, fierce enemy who will just stomp you right back.
Get a scout/warrior up there ASAP to see about copper, maybe. If you can get to the north of his city, you should be able to see all his land. Honestly, if he does have copper, you may already be cooked, heh. I dont have Warlords or BTS, but I have followed enough games to fear him if he is close. The mongols are slightly less threatening, since HBR takes a while, and they almost never rush without it (at least Kubla doesnt in vanilla)
Other than that, all in all, your starting spot is solid. If you can get a few cities down and some infrastructure in place, you should be able to compete, especially with the stone.
Get a scout/warrior up there ASAP to see about copper, maybe. If you can get to the north of his city, you should be able to see all his land. Honestly, if he does have copper, you may already be cooked, heh. I dont have Warlords or BTS, but I have followed enough games to fear him if he is close. The mongols are slightly less threatening, since HBR takes a while, and they almost never rush without it (at least Kubla doesnt in vanilla)
Other than that, all in all, your starting spot is solid. If you can get a few cities down and some infrastructure in place, you should be able to compete, especially with the stone.
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