Ratha (Indian Chariot) Project

[Blue Monkey]

Ratha (Indian Chariot) Project Proposal

Even more than the elephant, the ratha (Indian chariot) is indispensable to a pre-gunpowder Indian army. The only reason I can think of that it has not yet been made is the complexity of the model that must be created & the requirement for widely varied animation skills (people, animals, vehicle). It occurred to me that the work could be done by a team, rather than an individual. Not having done this, I don’t know which parts of the work could be split up, but here are my thoughts:

EDIT: An updated summary of what I'm looking for is in this post.

Division of Basic Tasks

1. Someone can build the model*. Maybe even that work can be subdivided with props & pieces (such as the parasol) done by others. Then the key modeller could do the assembly.
2. Then animations can be created. I don't know, but perhaps that work can be split also amongst those good at people, animals, and vehicles.
3. Obviously a unit this complex will take a lot of rendering time - couldn't that be farmed out to quite a few of us, even those who have Poser but don't make units yet?
4. Then someone can do the flic & palette work.

Early Responses

I sent a PM to several people who have previously requested or otherwise shown a strong interest in this badly needed & unique unit (pun/no pun). These are the responses I got:

[B Mithadan: “Well, I can't do any of that technical helping required as I've got none of the software or expertise required, sadly. I can always do a bit of lobbying, though.

My desire for an Indian chariot was more of the sort that would have been running around before and during Alexander's time (presumably on two wheels), but a ratha four-wheeler would do fine with me.”

Virote_Considon: “I'd be happy to do the rendering, for sure!”

R8XFT: “I'd be happy to do all the rendering and pallette/.flc work - i.e. all the finishing tasks if someone puts together the model and animations. I might have an Indian parasol from an Indian poser pack, so I'll check on that.”

Quinzy: “I fully support it too. It is, without a doubt, the most needed and least able to be substituted for unit.

It's very, very possible to do that, splitting the workload. However, the level of people with time, Poser, and a will/need for the unit serverly reduces likelyhoods of getting a team up.

One thing I was contemplating, if the unit doesn't win in the competition is making it myself.”


Basic Unit Requirements

For me, these are the key elements needed for a Ratha unit (illustrated in galleries below):

• Cart with four wheels (spoked). There are also two-wheeled depictions, but I think the four-wheeled is a more distinctly Indian version.
• Chattra (parasol)
• Multiple horses (2 would be fine); the maker has a lot of latitude as to how they are arranged.
• Two riders: archer & charioteer (driver)

Suggested details (see image galleries):

• Chariot Shape

the front can either be boxy or curved
the rear can be either open or closed

• Possible Civ-color locations:

pennant
chattra
side/front panels of chariot
horse caparisons

• Attire of Riders

the distinctive Indian helmets
torso armor - plate mail or metal cuirass on archer preferred, lighter armor or none on charioteer okay.
dhoti style pants (please no togas) - another place for civ-color

• Preferred Victory Animation:

The charioteer blows a conch (I can supply the sounds)

• Possible (Simplified?) Death Animation:

Only the archer dies, the chariot turns & retreats

Variations

Once a base model and animations are made & available elaborations / variations would be possible (most of these are illustrated in the galleries below):

• An early-era version. The riders could be unarmored, with the brahmin hair style (topknot). This might be the two-wheeled version, with the standard version being the four-wheeled.
• A “king” unit with more elaborate textures applied to the chariot, gold-colored chasings for example. On such a unit the chattra (parasol) should definitely be white.
• An "army" version. I have an idea for using the chattra as the "number of units held" display.
• A version with the elaborated howdah-style chattra.
• “Ram” type extensions, possibly designed like animal heads.
• Blades on wheels.
• Some civs could use exotic animals to pull their rathas. The king of the raksasas, for example, used two black bears.

Illustrative Galleries

I do not intend at all that the unit(s) be as elaborate as some of these images. As in many cultures, it is the Indian gods & heroes that usually get depicted, not the average warrior (even of the elite Kshatrya caste). But the basic design of the ratha will be the same.

Spoiler:

Basic Four-wheeled Version
thumbnail


Chattra (Parasol)
thumbnail


Multiple Horses (Harness Variations)
thumbnail


Riders: Archer & Charioteer
thumbnail


Two-wheeled Version
thumbnail


Possible Civ-color Locations & Body Shape Variations and Elaborations
thumbnail

[Blue Monkey]

I'm still working on adding the galleries. Meanwhile Quinzy PMed me a preview of an early stage model he's working on getting postable. I did a PBJT. He has a request:

Originally Posted by Quinzy

Could you ask around for a horse model . obj with all the bits movable? I'm making this in Bryce

for Q's sake the next gallery to get posted will be the riders.

[Sandris]

I need an e-mail to send Quinzy the horse & rider *.pz-scene.

[Quinzy]

I've PM'd you Sandris.

This is the current rendition.


No doubt it will change over the coming weeks.

I'm having ideas about the animations already. Once I get all the pieced I need that I can't make myself, i'll be on my way.

As you can see, it'll be a 2 horse chariot, if that's no problem Blue?

And yes, the flag will wave, as per your question

[Blue Monkey]

2 horses are just fine.

I'd like to hear your thoughts on the animations. I hope you'll take up my suggestion of the conch blowing for the victory animation. & speaking of that, I have a request for a version with a blue-skinned charioteer to make a special unit (everything else, including animations, can be identical):



Plotinus made a helmet for the Golden Warrior that works pretty well for any Kshatriya unit (although I think the long tunics he put them in make them look Babylonian more than Indian). Talk to him about the dhoti he made for the Indian worker as well. The texture looks very good in game. Maybe some palette genius can figure out how to make a civ-color version.

[Sandris]

What degree of visibility of riders in the cart should be used ? The Quinzy`s cart looks great, but how it does compare to riders` scales ? Should not the front wheels be smaller than the back ones ?

[Quinzy]

If they are in the chariot, their pants will be little seen, but i'll add in as many details as I realistically can, and i'll constantly ask for your opinion on every detail

Edit: Yes, I can change the size of the wheels
Also, I was planning on the horse pulling the chariot forward, and then sort of reversing it at an angle, so the archer can shoot out of the chariot with a clearer view.

I will also adjust the scales of the chariot, length of the pole, and riders once I have them all in place

[Blue Monkey]

Originally Posted by Sandris

What degree of visibility of riders in the cart should be used ? The Quinzy`s cart looks great, but how it does compare to riders` scales ? Should not the front wheels be smaller than the back ones ?

Originally Posted by Quinzy

If they are in the chariot, their pants will be little seen, but i'll add in as many details as I realistically can, and i'll constantly ask for your opinion on every detail

Edit: Yes, I can change the size of the wheels
Also, I was planning on the horse pulling the chariot forward, and then sort of reversing it at an angle, so the archer can shoot out of the chariot with a clearer view.

I will also adjust the scales of the chariot, length of the pole, and riders once I have them all in place

Wheels: There are images both with same-size & varied-size wheels. Go with whichever looks better.

Attack: I just posted the "riders" gallery above. Most of the Images I've seen show him shooting out the side & at a forward angle, so an "angled" move by the horses would probably get the right effect. These guys famously shot accurately with the chariot in motion - although I'm not sure how a "red queen" animation looks in game.

Scale: Personally I'd be happy for the unit to be on the large size so that the riders are closer to the size of the foot units, within the limits of game scale. The rathas are like tanks in a sense -big, expensive, & dominating the field. "Juggernaut" is a corruption of a name for a special kind of ratha used to carry a consecrated image.

[Blue Monkey]

A new thought - If you need more room to display the riders maybe you can make the chattra more like this image:



You can still use your basic superstructure, but with only a single pole, or two, in the rear. The pictures in the chattra gallery above have a similar look.

Well, I've got to leave my computer for at least a few hours. Thank you, Quinzy, for beginning this so quickly. And thank you, Sandris, for giving your support. Feel free to be as active a participant as you want; anyone with your unit-making skills is a welcome addition.

[Quinzy]

You mean getting rid of the 4 poles and using just 1 thicker one? I can do that I'll see how it looks tomorrow

One thing I was thinking about- if anyone with Bryce 6 wants to convert the chariot to a Poser frieldly model, I could then pass it on to someone to add in people and horses etc.
That is, if I don't get a working horse model

[Sandris]

Originally Posted by Blue Monkey

Scale: Personally I'd be happy for the unit to be on the large size so that the riders are closer to the size of the foot units, within the limits of game scale.

It would be better to have the same size as the standard paperdoll-based horseman/rider has.

[RedAlert]

As a friend of civilizations with not many units to their name, I wish you all luck.

[Quinzy]

Yeah, I'd like to keep it as close to the original charioteer scale as I can, simply for standardisational purposes

[Blue Monkey]

Originally Posted by Quinzy

Yeah, I'd like to keep it as close to the original charioteer scale as I can, simply for standardisational purposes

I trust your judgment. I'm just hoping the archer & charioteer are detailed enough.

[Quinzy]

He seems detailed enough in the stock Chariot, so i'd say he'll be

[Blue Monkey]

Well, I was wrong & rude & it's been bothering me ever since.

Originally Posted by Micaelus

So far as chariot models, I looked for a little bit and came across three.


http://www-c.inria.fr/gamma/download...1&last_page=11


http://www-c.inria.fr/gamma/download...T&last_page=11


http://www.planit3d.com/source/meshe...s/chariot.html

On the same site as the first two there are separate 3ds objects of wheels or wheels and axles that could be useful in animating to get the wheels to turn.

Originally Posted by Blue Monkey

@Micaelus - unfortunately those models, while nicely made, are not rathas at all.

I was wrong to discourage you. I'm truly sorry to have discouraged anyone from creating. It was also wrong of me to argue against what someone else obviously sees as an importantly needed unit. As Mithadan said in another thread:

Originally Posted by Mithadan

Mightn't a Vedic Chariot or some such be more in order? Seems more iconic...

and in a PM:

Originally Posted by Mithadan

My desire for an Indian chariot was more of the sort that would have been running around before and during Alexander's time (presumably on two wheels)

I second Mithadan's request for a Vedic Era 2-wheeled ratha (with a simple chattra/parasol please). Micaelus, I think the second model you previewed, the pinkish one, would be a very suitable starting point. I've posted some concept art for a two-wheeled ratha in the first post.

[Quinzy]

I'm back from holidays now. I'll keep on working shortly

[Mithadan]

I second Blue Monkey's seconding of my two wheeled Indian chariot request!

[Micaelus]

Originally Posted by Blue Monkey

Well, I was wrong & rude & it's been bothering me ever since. ...
I second Mithadan's request for a Vedic Era 2-wheeled ratha (with a simple chattra/parasol please). Micaelus, I think the second model you previewed, the pinkish one, would be a very suitable starting point. I've posted some concept art for a two-wheeled ratha in the first post.

First off, thanks BM for the apology--I appreciate it--but you needn't have worried too much about it. I wanted to see if I could be of any meager assistance and just thought that what I had found was too far off and couldn't be any use. No further harm was done.

My apologies for the delayed reply--I was swamped last week and then was out of town. I'll see if I can fashion something decent from that second chariot and I'll get back to you.

[Blue Monkey]

Originally Posted by Micaelus

I'll see if I can fashion something decent from that second chariot and I'll get back to you.

Thanks for taking it up. Feel free to post your WIP previews here, as Quinzy is doing. I think for the Vedic Chariot one horse will be fine, but the key elements are a chattra (parasol), charioteer, and archer.


Quinzy & Micaelus: On another note, if either of you could work some version of this symbol into the unit, the way shield emblems are sometimes done, that would be peachy. It's the Sanskrit for "Arya" - what the Vedic Indians called themselves. Feel free to be creative with it, you don't have to use this exact version.