Unit/Faction/Specialist name changes in upcoming Release 2.4

We have made some changes in Unit, Specialist and Faction names in the upcoming Release 2.4. Our goal is to provide more understandable and distinguishable unit and faction names. Before making the new release, I want to post these changes here so that you can give us some suggestions and feedback about these changes. Also, old players might need to familiar themselves with these new changed names.

In the following format:

Original Name
Unit Section.

1. Xiandeng Swordsman2. Wuwei Swordsman3. Tiger Swordsman4. Daodun Swordsman5. Axeman6. Tuntian Axeman7. Dao Axeman8. Guardian9. Warrior10. Sou Spearman11. Qiang Pikeman12. Qiang Cavalry13. Pianxiang Chariot14. Xianbei Horseman15. Wuhuan Horseman16. Knight17. XiongNu Rider18. Liannu Catapult19. Shenfeng Catapult20. Yuanrong Crossbow21. Xuanfeng Trebuchet22. Longship23. Chen Xiao24. Meng Chong Ship25. Fire Meng Chong26. Pi Li Machine27. Nan Man Elephant28. Shan Yue Army29. Tai Army
Specialist Section

1. Citizen2. Priest3. Artist4. Scientist5. Engineer6. Great Prophet7. Great Artist8. Great Scientist9. Great Engineer10. Great Merchant11. Great Spy
Faction Section

1. Cao Cao2. Liu Bei3. Sun Ce4. Yuan Shao5. Liu Biao6. Liu Zhang7. Gongsun Zan8. Ma Teng9. Yuan Shu10. Kong Rong11. Gongsun Du12. Dong Zhuo13. Yellow Turban14. Liu Yao15. Shan Yue16. Wang Lang17. Zhang Yang18. Zhang Yan19. Zang Ba20. Zhang Lu21. Shi Xie22. Bai Bo23. Nan Man24. Liu Chong25. Lu Bu

Well it's good to finally know what Xiandeng means (I've been googling all these names). But it means we have to learn all these new names. If it's at all possible, can you put (in parentheses) what the new units are in Civ terms? E.g. Siege Warrior (swordsman).

I can do that. Maybe after some more time when these easy names become familiar I can remove those hints again.

Hmm, all the names work, but it would be nice to retain some unit name similarity among units of the same unit line. ex. Xiandeng swordsman becomes Seige Warrior so then Wuwei Swordsman should become Martial Swordsman or Guard Swordsman as opposed to Martial Guard so others can easily and quickly identify which unit is an upgrade of another. Having the unit line in parenthases like (swordsman) would also be a nice solution, but would take up alot of space.

I have just posted a beta release. In that release I added (swordsman), (axeman) to corresponding units. You can check to see if they fit.

Sounds like it would work! Now all I have to do is wait for 24 excruciating hours before I can play
I guess I'll have to settle for whatever scraps of info AP happens throw back into the forum until then

Hmm, these new names are a great step in the right direction, but I still think I could make offer some possibly clearer names. Also, it would be nice to be able to work out some sort of logical naming progression that mimics the upgrade chart in some way like Kenjister said...

We'll get this worked out to everyone's satisfaction eventually

By the way, whats the estimated release date for 2.4?

Cool the1sean, waiting for your input! As to the release date for 2.4, I'm hoping to get it done by next Wednesday day or so.

Lol. Now I get where the units got their names from. Which anglicizing system are you using? Is this WeiGails? And I'm glad you're not using the simplified (read: Basterdized) Chinese characters. I'm ashamed at how laborious it is for me to read the words now, and to think I actually read ROTK in Chinese while in grade school, though with the aid of BoPoMoFo (great job substituting that for Alphabet, by the way. I lmfao when I saw it. So true..."Alpha-Beta")

On the specialists, how about:
2. Priest = Philosopher, since religion was more of a philosophy back-in-the-days.
4. Scientist = Scholar
x. Merchant = Craftsman, since the Confucian system frowns upon profit in the absence of production.

Factions:
Would you consider naming the Great 3 by their kingdom names? Since the Sun family was replaced by Zhou Yu, and the Cao family was replaced by the Sima family, it might be more fitting to use the Wei and Wu names. And with Shu, after Liu Bei, AhDo was, eh....worse than Dubya compared to Bush the elder.

ORION11380 said:

Lol. Now I get where the units got their names from. Which anglicizing system are you using? Is this WeiGails? And I'm glad you're not using the simplified (read: Basterdized) Chinese characters. I'm ashamed at how laborious it is for me to read the words now, and to think I actually read ROTK in Chinese while in grade school, though with the aid of BoPoMoFo (great job substituting that for Alphabet, by the way. I lmfao when I saw it. So true..."Alpha-Beta")

On the specialists, how about:
2. Priest = Philosopher, since religion was more of a philosophy back-in-the-days.
4. Scientist = Scholar
x. Merchant = Craftsman, since the Confucian system frowns upon profit in the absence of production.

Factions:
Would you consider naming the Great 3 by their kingdom names? Since the Sun family was replaced by Zhou Yu, and the Cao family was replaced by the Sima family, it might be more fitting to use the Wei and Wu names. And with Shu, after Liu Bei, AhDo was, eh....worse than Dubya compared to Bush the elder.

Click to expand...

Those ARE mainland simplified characters, just look at the "le/yue" on performer, or any of the "dong" radicals. Also the romanization is the mainland HanYu PinYin, not Wade Jiles Pinyin. I much prefer the Hanyu Pinyin, because once you learn all the rules it comes very naturally for westerners learning it crazyeye. I read both long and short forms, but i like short form because it is easier to write

You probably had a hard tome reading because you were reading short form and didnt realize it, its pretty much the same thing with a few simplifications to the most common radicals from the long form characters.

ORION11380 said:

Lol. Now I get where the units got their names from. Which anglicizing system are you using? Is this WeiGails? And I'm glad you're not using the simplified (read: Basterdized) Chinese characters. I'm ashamed at how laborious it is for me to read the words now, and to think I actually read ROTK in Chinese while in grade school, though with the aid of BoPoMoFo (great job substituting that for Alphabet, by the way. I lmfao when I saw it. So true..."Alpha-Beta")

On the specialists, how about:
2. Priest = Philosopher, since religion was more of a philosophy back-in-the-days.
4. Scientist = Scholar
x. Merchant = Craftsman, since the Confucian system frowns upon profit in the absence of production.

Factions:
Would you consider naming the Great 3 by their kingdom names? Since the Sun family was replaced by Zhou Yu, and the Cao family was replaced by the Sima family, it might be more fitting to use the Wei and Wu names. And with Shu, after Liu Bei, AhDo was, eh....worse than Dubya compared to Bush the elder.

Click to expand...

It's simplified Chinese. This is mainland China and not every player is comfortable with traditional Chinese, although they are traditional and maybe better suited for the mod.

As for specialist: I like the priest to philosopher change, but we have chosen scientist names from craftsman, those who are great at making things and experimenting around with their hand, such as doctors, alchemists, engineers, and so on, not scholars who think and study using words only. What do your think is the best word for that? Confucianism may not like merchant very much, but those names are indeed merchants' name, so I prefer keeping merchant as it is now.

As for faction names, you got a point, in fact, I want to dynamically name all factions with a format of 'actual leader name, such as Liu Shan' + 'Faction'. If some faction got emperor civic, then rename it with a 'country name' such as Wei, etc. Just need to find some time to implement that.

Sun family was replaced by Zhou Yu,

Click to expand...

Eh?? In fact the Sun family has been particularly lucky in having no long term usurpers (Zhuge Ke was loyal but killed, and Sun Lin was eliminated eventually).

stmartin said:

As for specialist: I like the priest to philosopher change, but we have chosen scientist names from craftsman, those who are great at making things and experimenting around with their hand, such as doctors, alchemists, engineers, and so on, not scholars who think and study using words only. What do your think is the best word for that? Confucianism may not like merchant very much, but those names are indeed merchants' name, so I prefer keeping merchant as it is now.

As for faction names, you got a point, in fact, I want to dynamically name all factions with a format of 'actual leader name, such as Liu Shan' + 'Faction'. If some faction got emperor civic, then rename it with a 'country name' such as Wei, etc. Just need to find some time to implement that.

Click to expand...

I like the new advisor names. As far as faction naming goes, I would suggest using the word "Clan" instead of "Family", as it denotes the inclusion of advisors and others close to a family. I think a dynamic naming system would be really cool though, like the one in "Revolution".

As far as units go, here is my shot at unit naming. I was kinda torn between staying true to the chinese names, and giving the unit names a system that would be easy for players to understand in the game's context without referring back to the chinese characters. Without characters, most of the names had no context, so even for someone like me who knows chinese, it still was totally indecipherable. Also, between my previous knowledge of ancient warfare (did i mention i love history?), and quite a bit of supplementary research I found quite a few unit analogs between chinese weaponry and western weaponry (like the siege crossbows=ballista). In addition, some ways of naming units are generally accepted and seem most natural (ie: cavalry instead of riders), and some naming methods imply multiple meanings (ie: heavy infantry implies well armed, armored and trained units). Some of the units I tried to correlate with their unlocking techs or their associated section of the tech tree as well. Well, here we go:

EARLY MELEE
1. Warrior
Militia
Conscript Militia

2. Yellow Turban
Yellow Turban Rebels

SWORDSMEN: STANDARD
1. Xiandeng Swordsman
先登
Siege Warrior
Siege Infantry OR Assault Infantry

2. Wuwei Swordsman
武卫
Martial Guard
Warden Infantry

3. Tiger Swordsman
虎步
Tiger Foot
Tiger Infantry

4. Daodun Swordsman
刀楯兵
Sword-and-Shield Soldier
Heavy Infantry

SWORDSMEN: UNIQUE
1. Ghost Army
Ghost Infantry (OR Demon Infantry?)

2. Swift Minority (Wudang Feijun?)
Elite Shock Infantry? OR Zhuge's Elite?

3. Rattan Army
Rattan Armored Infantry OR Rattan Infantry

4. Shan Yue Army
山越兵
Shanyue-Ethnic Army
Shanyue Tribal Infantry

AXEMEN: STANDARD
1. Axeman
长刀兵
Sabre Soldier
Conscript Halberdiers

2. Tuntian Axeman
屯田士
Agrarian Colony Soldier
Garrison Halberdiers

3. Dao Axeman
校刀手
Sabre Executioner
Professional Halberdiers

4. Guardian
护军
Army Defender
Guardian Halberdiers

AXEMEN: UNIQUE
1. Anti-Cavalry Battalion

2. Heishan Bandits
Black Mountain Bandits

3. Qingzhou Army
Conscripted Rebels OR Assimilated Rebels OR Veteran Warriors

4. Armor Soldier
Armored Halberdiers OR Armored Warriors

5. Kongfu Monk
Warrior Monks OR Kungfu Monks

6. Tai Army
泰山贼
Mount Tai Army
Mount Tai Bandits

SPEARMEN: STANDARD
1. Halberdier
Conscript Spearmen

2. Spearman
Professional Spearmen

3. Pikeman
Professional Pikemen

4. Elite Pikeman
Heavy Pikemen

SPEARMEN: UNIQUE
1. Sou Spearman
叟兵
Sou-Ethnic Spearman
Sou Tribal Spearmen

2. Qiang Pikeman
西凉枪兵
Qiang-Ethnic Pikeman
Qiang Tribal Pikemen

ARCHERS: STANDARD
1. Archer
Conscript Archers

2. Elite Archer
Professional Archers

3. Longbowman
Garrison Archers

4. Elite Longbowman
Heavy Archers

ARCHERS UNIQUE
1. Private Guard

2. Swift Bowman
Swift Bowmen?

3. Skirmisher
Advance Skirmishers

CROSSBOWMEN: STANDARD
1. Crossbowman
Levy Crossbowmen

2. Heavy Crossbowman
Professional Crossbowmen

3. Gold Crossbowman
Repeating Crossbowmen

4. Elite Crossbowman
Heavy Crossbowmen

CROSSBOWMEN: UNIQUE
1. Chen's Crossbowman
Chen's Crossbowmen

2. Jizhou Crossbowman
Jizhou Ethnic Crossbowmen?

MOUNTED: STANDARD
1. Pianxiang Chariot
偏箱车
Side-Armor Chariot
Armored Chariot

2. Swift Rider
Light Cavalry

3. Tiger Rider
Professional Cavalry

4. Elite Rider
Tiger Cavalry

5. Knight
具装甲骑
Armor Rider
Heavy Cavalry OR Armored Cavalry

MOUNTED: UNIQUE
1. Qiang Cavalry
西凉骑兵
Qiang-Ethnic Cavalry
Qiang Tribal Cavalry

2. Xianbei Horseman
鲜卑突骑
Xianbei-Ethnic Horseman
Xianbei Tribal Cavalry

3. Wuhuan Horseman
乌桓突骑
Wuhuan-Ethnic Horseman
Wuhuan Tribal Cavalry

4. XiongNu Rider
匈奴突骑
XiongNu-Ethnic Rider
Steppe Cavalry OR Nomadic Cavalry

5. White Horse
White Cavalry OR White Horse Cavalry

6. Nan Man Elephant
南蛮战象
Southern Barbarian Elephant
Southern War Elephants

CATAPULTS: STANDARD
1. Catapult
Siege Ballista

2. Liannu Catapult
连弩
Machine Crossbow
Repeating Ballista

3. Shenfeng Catapult
神锋弩
Razor Catapult
Blade Ballista OR Blade Catapult

CATAPULTS: UNIQUE
1. Yuanrong Crossbow
元戎
Commanding Crossbow
Supreme Ballista OR Ultimate Ballista

TREBUCHETS: STANDARD
1. Trebuchet

2. Xuanfeng Trebuchet
攻城车
Siege Trebuchet

TREBUCHETS: UNIQUE
1. Pi Li Machine
霹雳车
Lightning Trebuchet

TRANPORTS: STANDARD
1. Floor Galley

2. Five Floor Galley

3. Longship
连舫
Linking Ship

WARSHIPS: STANDARD
1. Light Galley

2. War Galley

3. Chen Xiao
晨枭
Wild Goose???

WARSHIPS: UNIQUE
1. Meng Chong Ship
蒙冲
Assault Ship

2. Fire Meng Chong
火蒙冲
Fire Assault Ship

Well thats the list. I included some units that werent in the original list, and so for those I didnt have any characters to go off of. If I have included two possible names for a unit I listed the name I prefer first, and the optional one second. Let me know what ya'll think! (yes, I am from Texas, so I say "ya'll")

Nice list! I do think though for the UU's such as Qingzhou Armies and such should have thier names remain in Pinyin. The Chinese names add a nice feel to the game, and since they're UU's, background will be in the pedia so their really isn't a pressing need to describe what they are in the actual unit name. Also, I don't really think the Archer units need to be renamed, since they're pretty straightforward already.

I really don't think the axemen should be called halberdiers, it just confuses the player who's used to the swordsmen/axemen dichotomy. Whenever I think of halberdiers I think of polearms. Yes, there is an axe (Barte for -berd) on a halberd, but they are used primarily as pikes. If anything I would make the polearms in this order: spears<pikes<halberds

That's awesome stuff, the1sean! We can apply most of these changes right away.

the1sean said:

I would suggest using the word "Clan" instead of "Family", as it denotes the inclusion of advisors and others close to a family.

Click to expand...

This is great change! And for the unit names I will only list those that you list more than 1 candidate or I have some second thought about:

1. The swordsman line: the names are great, but isn't infantry include everything that's melee? include swords, axes, spears? The melee hero level promotion called 'Infantry commander'. So keeping the name changes, isn't it better if we substitute infantry with 'swordsman'? It may not be accurate historically, but the unit graphics show them to use swords.


2. The axeman line: I like halberdier change, although I share AP's feeling about the confusion with axeman and spearman. However, that's a small price to pay in my opinion, as it's both historically accurate and graphic compatible.


3. spearman archers and crossbowman are good.



4. Calvary rename are great.


6. Ballistas and Trebuchet, I like Ballista rename very much!



The last confusion is this:

3. Chen Xiao
&#26216;&#26541;
Wild Goose???

Literally it means 'Wild duck in the morning', it's a ship name, how do you think we should translate it?

That's awesome stuff, the1sean! We can apply most of these changes right away.

Awesome, glad you like the suggestions overall

Here's my thoughts. If I skipped an entry it's because I agree with your suggestions.

1. The swordsman line: the names are great, but isn't infantry include everything that's melee? include swords, axes, spears? The melee hero level promotion called 'Infantry commander'. So keeping the name changes, isn't it better if we substitute infantry with 'swordsman'? It may not be accurate historically, but the unit graphics show them to use swords.


Yeah, I actually almost suggested the same thing, lol. It's a good move and makes the naming conventions easier to understand.

2. Swift Minority (Wudang Feijun?)
Elite Shock Infantry? OR Zhuge's Elite?
This name need rethinking. Literally it means 'A flying army that no one can stop/rival'.

Yeah, I looked it up and it said its the special troops that Zhuge Liang trained, so thats why I suggested "Zhuge's Elite". You could always name them the "flying tigers"

2. The axeman line: I like halberdier change, although I share AP's feeling about the confusion with axeman and spearman. However, that's a small price to pay in my opinion, as it's both historically accurate and graphic compatible.

Yeah, confusing at first, but i think it will fit the period and be VERY easy to figure out. Halberdiers were so common in the 3 kingdoms that it would be a shame not to include them as a unit series... Plus from what I understand chinese halberds were mainly employed as an anti-infantry weapon, with secondary anti-cavalry application, so it would fit. You could even give all the Halberdier units +25% vs cavalry to reflect it.

I suggest use Qingzhou Army or Qingzhou Rebels, as Kenjister points out.

I vote for Qingzhou Rebels then

3. spearman archers and crossbowman are good.

As a side note I changed their names to fit their spots on the techtree or make the naming conventions have a similarity to them, so I am glad you like them.

2. Jizhou Crossbowman
Jizhou Ethnic Crossbowmen?
No, this one is not an ethnic unit I think. Just keep the old one should be ok.

Yeah, I dont have the chinese characters on that one, and the civilopedia didnt have anything, so "Jizhou Crossbowmen" should work... by the way, what made Jizhou crossbowmen so different (I am assuming it is a place name)?

4. XiongNu Rider
&#21256;&#22900;&#31361;&#39569;
XiongNu-Ethnic Rider
Steppe Cavalry OR Nomadic Cavalry
Why not use Xiongnu Tribal Cavalry like the rest?

Either way After looking up the XiongNu I just realized that most westerners will be familiar with the idea of Steppe Cavalry already, so no confusion.

6. Ballistas and Trebuchet, I like Ballista rename very much!

Great!

The last confusion is this:
3. Chen Xiao
&#26216;&#26541;
Wild Goose???
Literally it means 'Wild duck in the morning', it's a ship name, how do you think we should translate it?

Lol, I got "morning owl" and was pretty confused.

Hmm, was it a single ship, or were there a lot of them? What was so special about it (fast, strong, heavily armored, etc)? You could always just call it a "ChenXiao Galley", but thats just taking the easy way out

Hope this can contribute to a better mod experience for all!

Swift Minority. I have a feeling we should keep this name as is. Because they consist of minority ethnic groups such as Southern Barbarians.

Jizhou Crossbows are the reason Yuan Shao eliminated Gongsun Zan's white horse calvary in the Battle of Jie Bridge.

ChenXiao is a big ship with a duck-shape head. The other name would be 'Duck-head ship'...

the1sean said:

You probably had a hard tome reading because you were reading short form and didnt realize it, its pretty much the same thing with a few simplifications to the most common radicals from the long form characters.

Click to expand...

Gotcha. I thought it looked funny due to the font on my computer. Ever since I switched to the new Vista some of the Chinese characters comes across funny. Thanks.

stmartin said:

2. The axeman line: I like halberdier change, although I share AP's feeling about the confusion with axeman and spearman. However, that's a small price to pay in my opinion, as it's both historically accurate and graphic compatible.

Click to expand...

I agree with the halberdier reference. Axemen sounds so primitive. Halberd supposedly came from German for "staff axe," and I've always thought of halberds as much of anti-infantry as anti-cavalry. I recall they had evolved from pikes to counter the standard pikesmen, who could only stab, while the halberdier could stab and hack.

The artistic depiction of anti-infantry polearms of the Three Kingdom era looked more like glaives and voulges than pikes. Guan Yu's "Green Dragon Sword" was translated as a glaive. The Vatican Guards and other traditional guards of the European courts were armed with glaives, and it's much more likely for swordsmen than cavalrymen to charge into the courts.

However, in stylistic terms, halberdiers sounds cooler than "glaive wielding infantry" or "voulgesmen"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glaive

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voulge

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halberd