Language Discussion - split from Civ4 Q&A thread

CivIVMonger

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This will sound prety stupid. Is there a translator on the forums? Roland Johansen is from the Netherlands, Ironan is from Germany, Meatbuster is from philipeans, Dragonxander is from Puerto Rico, and the person with the Civ III polythiesm avatar is from Russia. It would be an odd thing for all of you to speak English.
 
This will sound prety stupid. Is there a translator on the forums? Roland Johansen is from the Netherlands, Ironan is from Germany, Meatbuster is from philipeans, Dragonxander is from Puerto Rico, and the person with the Civ III polythiesm avatar is from Russia. It would be an odd thing for all of you to speak English.
"If you speak three languages, you're trilingual; if you speak two languages, you're bilingual; if you speak one language, you're American." :lol:
 
"If you speak three languages, you're trilingual; if you speak two languages, you're bilingual; if you speak one language, you're American." :lol:

Oh, so very true. :D
 
Just out of interest, to all the Americans reading this:

How large a percentage of high school students learn a new language at high school (in the US) and what is their typical level (spoken and written) after high school (abysmal - poor - average - good - fluent). I could for instance imagine that Spanish would be interesting when you're close to the Mexican border or French when you're close to Quebec or some other language that you're just interested in. I do understand that additional languages aren't that interesting when you're living in a large single language region like the US. But I'm curious how high school students approach this.
 
Just out of interest, to all the Americans reading this:

How large a percentage of high school students learn a new language at high school (in the US) and what is their typical level (spoken and written) after high school (abysmal - poor - average - good - fluent). I could for instance imagine that Spanish would be interesting when you're close to the Mexican border or French when you're close to Quebec or some other language that you're just interested in. I do understand that additional languages aren't that interesting when you're living in a large single language region like the US. But I'm curious how high school students approach this.

My own experience. I attended a subpar public (that's "private" for the Brits out there) high school in S. Florida. I studied Spanish for 2 years, but really didn't have any mastery of it - I did it just have two years of a foreign language for my college applications. In university, I again studied two years of Spanish, but once again just to get the foreign language credits (I was trying to pick up a second major).

The funny thing is that I love languages, and am fascinated by grammar and etymologies, but I can't "think" in them to speak them. In the Army, I scored very high on the DLAB (a test of raw language proficiency used to assign slots to language school), and earned a slot at the Defense Language Institute for an intense/immersive 63-week cours in Arabic. Once again, I scored very well in Reading/Listening, but could not speak the language worth a damn. Half-way through, unable to speak the language to standard, I was released surveyed out of the course.

Most of my friends that are first and second generation immigrants, speak the language of their parents/grandparents, however past that interest/proficiency in foreign languages seems to fade. I think the biggest problem is that foreign language instruction in schools is non-existant prior to high school - it should begin much earlier.
 
Just out of interest, to all the Americans reading this:

How large a percentage of high school students learn a new language at high school (in the US) and what is their typical level (spoken and written) after high school (abysmal - poor - average - good - fluent). I could for instance imagine that Spanish would be interesting when you're close to the Mexican border or French when you're close to Quebec or some other language that you're just interested in. I do understand that additional languages aren't that interesting when you're living in a large single language region like the US. But I'm curious how high school students approach this.

Well, I tried a quick Google search to see if I could find an answer to your question about percentages, however I was not successful :(. I think a lot of high school and college students are expected to study foreign language--certainly they are here in Colorado. But the level of ability that results may not be very high without something more.

As I recall I had to start taking a foreign language in junior high school; I think it was in 7th grade. Junior high school, as it then was in Colorado, included the seventh through the ninth grades (in our Kindergarten-12th grade system). I started in French but switched to Spanish pretty quickly. I took Spanish all the way through high school, then was able to test out of one year of the foreign language requirement at the state university I attended (in another state). The requirement was for two years of foreign language education, so I still had to take one more year. So all in all I had about 7 years of Spanish in school. But somewhere along the line in my first two years in college, I decided that A) I really wanted to study abroad, and B) I wanted to study in a primarily Spanish-speaking country, because I didn't feel like I could really use the language effectively despite all those years studying it. So I studied for a semester in (as it turned out) an area of Spain not frequented much by tourists. Our classes were taught in Spanish (though they were separate from the classes the native Spanish students were taking), and as far as I could tell, barely anyone in the small city in which I lived spoke English, other than the professor who was the liaison for our program. It was a little rough communicating with my host family for the first couple of weeks, but it was amazing how rapidly my understanding progressed. I had one professor--for a linguistics class-- who spoke so fast that at first I thought I would have to drop her class. But within one month, I understood most of what she was saying, and by the end of two months, it was rare for me to not understand something that she said. My ability to say what I wanted to say when I wanted to say it-- what I understand is called "active vocabulary"-- improved more gradually, but still faster than it had in the classroom in the United States. I learned a lot about grammar in the US, and it was good to have that foundation, however, it's the time I spent in Spain that I credit for catapulting (<---catapults; the token Civ connection in this post ;) ) my ability to use Spanish effectively forward in a big way.

The next year, I studied for a semester in Quito, Ecuador. The language adjustment was much easier that time, having had the immersion experience in Spain. And in Ecuador, I took a couple of classes taught in Spanish alongside Ecuadorian students.

For a couple of years, I taught Spanish to adults part-time at a continuing education center in the city I live in. And for one school year, I taught it to children in levels from preschool through grade 6 at a small private school. I haven't studied the theory of education, however, my experience learning and teaching Spanish has led me to believe that we Americans could focus less on trying to translate or compare everything in a foreign language--words, expressions, rules of the language--into/to English. Trying to do so doesn't really work anyway. It seems to me that we tend to focus too much on trying to make everything familiar to us, and on minimizing "mistakes"-- a perfectionistic approach that might protect some people's feelings if they're sensitive about making mistakes, but in my case, and I think in the case of others as well, that doesn't help us to have the confidence to go out and speak imperfectly and learn how the language is used outside of the classroom. Speaking of which, there are many people in the metro area I live in who speak Spanish as their first language, and yet it seems to me like we almost live in different worlds-- because English dominates in so many areas of public life here.

So I probably had a "good" theoretical foundation but "poor" actual usage ability until I had lived in Spain for a few weeks. I'm very grateful to have had the chance to improve my ability/fluency in a big way.
 
Just out of interest, to all the Americans reading this:

How large a percentage of high school students learn a new language at high school (in the US) and what is their typical level (spoken and written) after high school (abysmal - poor - average - good - fluent). I could for instance imagine that Spanish would be interesting when you're close to the Mexican border or French when you're close to Quebec or some other language that you're just interested in. I do understand that additional languages aren't that interesting when you're living in a large single language region like the US. But I'm curious how high school students approach this.

Like Bestbrian I took foreign languages for college in high school. One year Spanish and two years French (and some Japanesse). Utterly useless without someone to talk to. In college I took Greek and Latin and found Latin to be a better course for me than the other three combined. Without the reinforcement of speaking the language daily I have retained little. Grammar and writing skills are not my strong suit... Obviously. :sad:
 
bestbrian, jmas, IAM, thanks for giving my a glimpse at various examples of the US educational system. It seems that the educational system isn't really at fault here when people say that Americans only know about 1 language. It seems more about not being able to practise the language, to use it in real life. As jmas explained, that's really important in learning a language (kudos on knowing Spanish on such a high level that you can teach it, it's probably not the easiest language to learn for people who have English as their native language).

In the Netherlands, English education is pretty good in the sense that the entire classes are given in English (as opposed to the native Dutch for people from the Netherlands) and that you're supposed to read quite some books in English before you can pass the final exams. Reading books in the new language and talking in the new language regularly helps. All of this is hugely supported by the fact that many movies on Dutch television are English spoken movies (subtitled in Dutch) and that computer games are often in English.
Education in German and French is a bit tougher because it is not naturally supported by movies and computer games so it's not really possible to start giving the classes in those languages. I live very close to the German border and practised that language a bit and watched some German television programs so it stuck, but my French is largely gone. I can still understand it a bit when the French person isn't talking too quickly, but I really have to think hard when I try to use that language. Learning to actively use a foreign language as fluently as people who learned it as their native language is really tough, almost impossible.

Thanks for the insight.
 
Just out of interest, to all the Americans reading this:

How large a percentage of high school students learn a new language at high school (in the US) and what is their typical level (spoken and written) after high school (abysmal - poor - average - good - fluent). I could for instance imagine that Spanish would be interesting when you're close to the Mexican border or French when you're close to Quebec or some other language that you're just interested in. I do understand that additional languages aren't that interesting when you're living in a large single language region like the US. But I'm curious how high school students approach this.

These days in America, you are REQUIRED to know Latin, and Spanish with extra credit for any others. Why did you learn English? The Netherlands is across the ocean with the average citizen not needing the knowledge at all. (As far as I know...)

At least average and above past college. Langauge counts for alot of your total grade.
 
These days in America, you are REQUIRED to know Latin, and Spanish with extra credit for any others. Why did you learn English? The Netherlands is across the ocean with the average citizen not needing the knowledge at all. (As far as I know...)

At least average and above past college. Langauge counts for alot of your total grade.

Where are you required to know Latin? :confused:

Oh, and the Dutch have an English speaking country right next door called England. :D

Seriously, having lived in Germany and traveled fairly extensively throughout Europe, English has a great deal of cultural penetration. It's the most popular second language, because of all the cool movies / video games / etc. It is also the international language for business, diplomacy, medicine, air travel, etc, so it behooves professional folks from non-English speaking countries to gain fluency. Consequently, it becomes LESS important for native English speakers to speak foreign languages, and thus less common.

I always thought it would be kinda cool if Civ gave a bonus for having acheived enough cultural and trade dominance that your civs language became THE dominant language in the world. I just have never been able to figure out what it should be - maybe a +2 Diplo modifier?
 
Where are you required to know Latin? :confused:

Oh, and the Dutch have an English speaking country right next door called England. :D

Seriously, having lived in Germany and traveled fairly extensively throughout Europe, English has a great deal of cultural penetration. It's the most popular second language, because of all the cool movies / video games / etc. It is also the international language for business, diplomacy, medicine, air travel, etc, so it behooves professional folks from non-English speaking countries to gain fluency. Consequently, it becomes LESS important for native English speakers to speak foreign languages, and thus less common.

I always thought it would be kinda cool if Civ gave a bonus for having acheived enough cultural and trade dominance that your civs language became THE dominant language in the world. I just have never been able to figure out what it should be - maybe a +2 Diplo modifier?

I forgot about England!? Sorry, it has been a long day, please understand.
 
CivIVMonger said:
These days in America, you are REQUIRED to know Latin

Where are you required to know Latin? :confused:

I'm also :confused:. I don't think I know of any part of America where one is required to learn Latin these days. I certainly wasn't required to do so. Can you elaborate CivIVMonger (maybe after a rest)?
 
Some private high schools require Latin and I think it's a pre-med requisite but other than being a good foundation for other languages I don't think it's required at most American schools.
 
These days in America, you are REQUIRED to know Latin, and Spanish with extra credit for any others. Why did you learn English? The Netherlands is across the ocean with the average citizen not needing the knowledge at all. (As far as I know...)

At least average and above past college. Langauge counts for alot of your total grade.

bestbrian already explained the importance of English to non-English speaking countries.

But ok, here are some reasons for me to learn it:

1) In the Netherlands, there are various levels of 'middle school' (Dutch 'middelbare school', the school that people follow from ages 12 till 16-18, probably comparable to American High School). On the level that I followed, English was mandatory. That's probably a sensible government decision as that level of 'middle school' was a preparation for the university and lots of study books at the university level are in English. English is the scientific language of this age and universities are places of science.

2) England is nearby. I want to be able to read English books, understand English films without subscripts. English is the language of business and research and I want to be able to participate.

3) Last but not least. [party] English is the mandatory language on Civilization Fanatics Center! [party] .

By the way, the language that people are taught in the Netherlands is British English and not American English. The difference is almost negligible, but still. You'll see me writing civilisation instead of civilization as long as I'm not talking about the game and I pronounce the word 'can't' in the British way and not the American way.

I also know German pretty well as it's the big neighbour. You'll never know when they're going to invade again...

Oh, by the way, I'm also puzzled about the Latin requirement that you mentioned. Reading some of the posts of your countrymen, it seems that it's only mandatory in your region.
 
Just out of interest, to all the Americans reading this:

How large a percentage of high school students learn a new language at high school (in the US) and what is their typical level (spoken and written) after high school (abysmal - poor - average - good - fluent). I could for instance imagine that Spanish would be interesting when you're close to the Mexican border or French when you're close to Quebec or some other language that you're just interested in. I do understand that additional languages aren't that interesting when you're living in a large single language region like the US. But I'm curious how high school students approach this.

If you don't mind an answer that is a bit dated, when I was a boy in the 1950s, in the city school system that I attended we started studying French in the third grade and continued throughout elementary school. I continued studying French in high school and in college. In college, I also studied German, Russian, and Spanish. When I visited Switzerland after college, I was fluent in French, able to serve as an interpreter between an English couple and a local French speaking Swiss while on a train. On that trip I found my German adequate to communicate but not really fluent. Since I would fall back on French when my German failed, I was not infrequently mistaken for a Frenchman, while in Switzerland. My Russian was never better than poor, just something that I did for fun one semester. My Spanish was good, since I ended up using it in a hospital where I worked in Arizona. Today, after rarely using any of them for over thirty years, I can still read, albeit slowly with a dictionary at hand, in French, Spanish, and German. On the rare occasion that I have the opportunity to speak, I can get by in French and Spanish, after a short while to get up to speed, and stumble along in broken German.

As for the remark IAM made about Latin being required for pre-med. It isn't required by any medical school in the U.S. Perhaps it was required as part of a pre-med curriculum at a school that IAM is familiar with. I speak as a medical school graduate (M.D.).

With regard to current high school students, I used to interview college applicants. It was probably about one in ten that had a good speaking command of anything but English. (Of course there were a few that even had trouble with English! :lol: )
 
Just out of interest, to all the Americans reading this:

How large a percentage of high school students learn a new language at high school (in the US) and what is their typical level (spoken and written) after high school (abysmal - poor - average - good - fluent). I could for instance imagine that Spanish would be interesting when you're close to the Mexican border or French when you're close to Quebec or some other language that you're just interested in. I do understand that additional languages aren't that interesting when you're living in a large single language region like the US. But I'm curious how high school students approach this.

When I was in high school 15 years ago, you had to take 2 years of Spanish (or another foreign language) in order to be accepted to a 4 year school. I took 4 years because I liked it, but even still, I wouldn't say that my level was higher than average. But, like you said, the United States is a large single language region and I didn't have the need to practice, other than for school.
 
But ok, here are some reasons for me to learn it:

1) In the Netherlands, there are various levels of 'middle school' (Dutch 'middelbare school', the school that people follow from ages 12 till 16-18, probably comparable to American High School). On the level that I followed, English was mandatory. That's probably a sensible government decision as that level of 'middle school' was a preparation for the university and lots of study books at the university level are in English. English is the scientific language of this age and universities are places of science.

Well in here was a little diferent. In my days it was required to learn 2 foreign languages between the 5th and the 12th years of school ( the people that went to the side of the human sciences had to learn 3 ) and most of the schools had the option of learning English first and French after or French first and English after :p

2) England is nearby. I want to be able to read English books, understand English films without subscripts. English is the language of business and research and I want to be able to participate.

Well, we have a pretty ancient and sizable English community in here :/ Where I live is not uncommon to find people talking in English in the street naturally without being tourists.

3) Last but not least. [party] English is the mandatory language on Civilization Fanatics Center! [party] .
:lol: Well, surely helps to unrust :D
Oh and please, please, there is no Spanish language in this world :p There is a language called Castilian .... calling Castilian Spanish is like saying that the people of the United Kingdom speak UnitedKingdomiam :D
 
Well in here was a little diferent. In my days it was required to learn 2 foreign languages between the 5th and the 12th years of school ( the people that went to the side of the human sciences had to learn 3 ) and most of the schools had the option of learning English first and French after or French first and English after :p

I focussed on English in my previous post, but there were other mandatory classes in the Dutch 'middle school'. At the school that I attended, we had to take Dutch (native language), English, French and German classes for 4 years. After the first 4 years, students were required to make a selection among the various classes that they had been taking up to that point in order to specialise. English and Dutch were mandatory and other languages optionally for the last 2 years of this 'middle school'.
There is no general language education at the university level other than when you choose to actually study a specific language and become an expert in it.
 
In here it was ( it is not like that anymore ) a little diferent. We had to start learning a foreign language in the 5th year and other in the 7th and decide between one of them in the 10th year and continue with it until the the 12th year. So, there was people with 7 years or one language and 3 of other and people with 6 years of one language and 4 of other ( yup, confusing :p ). I opted for 7 years of English and 3 of French, and, given what I decided to pursue in academic terms, it was the best I could do ( I would had prefered some German as well.... there is a lot of Chemistry stuff in German :p )
 
When I was in high school 15 years ago, you had to take 2 years of Spanish (or another foreign language) in order to be accepted to a 4 year school.
Same here, though for me it was a little longer than fifteen years ago. :)

I think the Latin "requirement" is specifically for premed or law, and certainly not a requirement in most public schools. I took German and French in high school, and Latin, German and Irish in college --- but since I never got the opportunity to use them anywhere else, I was never any good. I could read and write Latin okay, but couldn't speak it worth a damn.
 
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