BTS Pre-release Chat with Firaxis (Q&A)

[Hitti-Litti]

^^

The staff said that America will spawn any civ, for example Maya.

 

[Dutch Canuck]

I wonder just which civs spawn which colonies... After all... just what civ would you spin off of America?

Texas? [j/k]

 

[Ken the Great]

I would love to see a map of the Byzantine Empire covering the Eastern of Europe, not only the Southeast.

Oh and I saw a screenshot of a UN option to 'return a city to it's rightful owner', that seems neat, and something what looks like a Veto option.

I'd love to see what civ colonizing Scandinavia would give..

 

[Ishon]

Who cares? Add [Slovenia] to the Czech Republic and 10% or so of Modern Poland's territory, and that's a good chunk of Eastern Europe. Then add the other Hapsburg and Hohenzollern lands in Eastern Europe, and there's nothing at all to mock in Alexman's statement. The Holy Roman Empire wasn't exactly... well-defined, shall we say.

Mixing the HRE, Charlemagne, the Habsburgs and the Hohenzollern Dynasty in order to make the impression of Poland being a Franco-Germanic colony is totally ridiculous.

The HRE makes no sense in a game where we have Germany and France. For the same reason we agreed that Italy makes no sense as long as we have the Romans. Charlemagne controlled the HRE for a short time, Poland has existed as a powerful monarchy for hundreds of years. I have no idea where this American "Charlemagne mania" comes from, and it is difficult to comprehend for me. That's just one leader of a state that collapsed, because it could not control two totally different peoples: the French and the Germans. France, Germany and Poland are the real things here, the HRE is a product similar to the Soviet Union, the European Union or whatever temporary structure.

Mentioning Slovenia in a serious discussion on the presence/absence of major European powers in Civ is totally hopeless. There are fewer people in Slovenia than in Warsaw, we are not discussing issues of that scale.

The fact that there was once a guy named Charlemagne does not imply that we have to introduce the temporary political structure he ruled, the HRE, into the game.

HRE = Germany, 10 times more than Austria = Germany

The full name of what foll Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation. Why don't we have the Soviet Union in the game? Any ideas??

The USSR - leader: Stalin
The HRE - leader: Charlemagne

Utterly dumb, hopelessly uneducated. I just hope we'll get to get rid of the HRE + Native Americans quickly, because these are the two civs that will just completely ruin my Civ games. And I really didn't feel like this about any Civ in the past before.

 

[Zachron]

[snip the rest of the post...]
Utterly dumb, hopelessly uneducated. I just hope we'll get to get rid of the HRE + Native Americans quickly, because these are the two civs that will just completely ruin my Civ games. And I really didn't feel like this about any Civ in the past before.

Oh just go play freeciv and stop your whining. You'll find plenty of whiney, over-politicized history buffs there too. Or you could LEARN TO MOD. Just think about it, 100 lines of code accomplish far more than 100 lines of griping rhetoric.

 

[Florian]

in order to make the impression of Poland being a Franco-Germanic colony

Whoah, whoah, whoah. Dial down the Pola-centric paranoia for a moment, would you? Nobody said anything about Poland being anyone's colony. All we've said is that the Holy Roman Empire in its various incarnations controlled significant portions of Eastern Europe. For you to deny that historically obvious fact, while at the same time calling the rest of us "uneducated," is a laugh and a half.

And I don't see how anyone could be "mixing the HRE, Charlemagne, the Habsburgs and the Hohenzollern Dynasty," when the last three items in that list were all at one time or another part of the first item in that list. That's the whole point, you see. The HRE's first birth, rhetorically at least, was in 800 AD when Charlemagne was crowned in Rome, and its last successor empire wasn't dissolved until after World War I. The HRE is a bulging 11-century grab-bag with lots of Central and Eastern European presence. Very handy for an expansion civ, despite the awful crime it has committed by not being POLAND.

 

[Ishon]

I have no idea what the source of all this . .. .. .. .. .. .. .. . is. What you call the HRE is already present in Civ under its more common name: Germany. Byzantium = the Roman Empire. We have agreed that Italy makes no sense, so why should Germany make sense now when for some totally weird reason we have the HRE in?

Whatever you call "the HRE presence in Eastern Europe" is the German presence in Eastern Europe.

http://www.euratlas.com/big/big0900.htm

Click the right arrow and observe the historical Truth.

The fact that Charlemagne is famous in the United States doesn't mean that there should be two civs representing the same entity. Or we should also have Italy, the Franks and the Swedish in. I know that "the Holy Roman Empire" sounds cool too people with no historical knowledge, but a longer visit to the Euratlas should help those players out. You should focus on the 1300 A.D. map and onwards. Then compare the 1200 A.D. Germany (the HRE) with the 1400 A.D. Poland.

Then answer the question: do we have Germany in or not? Do we have Poland in?

I repeat once again that the full name of the HRE was: The Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation. Why don't we have Napoleonic France next to France in Civ? Why is there no USSR next to Russia? There's a lot of powers that are not included at all, but Firaxis prefers doubling some of them (Germany = HREGN, the Roman Empire = Byzantium).

http://www.euratlas.com/big/big1400.htm

Here you can see Europe in the year 1400 A.D. which is the Late Middle Ages, the time of the Heavy Knights and Huge Castles. Yes, I know you can't believe your eyes, but the Commonwealth was a major European power in the Middle Ages, whereas Germany/the HRE was just a bunch of tiny states.

The Commonwealth stopped the Turkish invasion of Europe in Vienna, saving the Mighty HRE from becoming yet another muslim state.

Now look. The light blue area on the map is what I call Eastern Europe. What you call Eastern Europe is Slovenia and a small part of Poland. Now see what I mean when saying: Eastern Europe (=the Commonwealth) is absent in Civ IV?

Now click the right arrow, keep comparing the Powerful HRE to the Totally Irrelevant Commonwealth. Then visit Wikipedia and discover a lot of new facts that might make you decide that Germany does not deserve two Civs while Poland has none.

 

[Florian]

Ishon,

Byzantium has historical and geographical continuity with the Roman Empire, but it's hardly the same thing. Likewise with the HRE and modern Germany. Ever since Civ I, "the Germans" have been Prussia and Modern Germany, not the ancient, medieval, or even Early Modern Germanic peoples. That's why their leaders have been Frederick the Great and Otto von Bismarck--two men who never held the title of Holy Roman Emperor.

Why isn't there a separate Napoleonic France? Because it existed for only a few decades. Why not a separate USSR? It existed for only 70 years. Prussia/Modern Germany has been around a lot longer, and in fact still is.

As for the power of Late Medieval-Early Modern Poland, I assure you I need no history lesson. I've already told you that I think Poland would have been a good choice for an expansion civ. But the HRE is a good choice also.

 

[Ishon]

Okay, so how shall we call that Nation? The Holy Romans?

Can you see what I mean? I think that is completely ridiculous, even more than the addition of "Native Americans" with their Totem is. The presence of the Byzantines is somehow justified, the HRE = early Germany.

"The Holy Romans declared war on the Romans". What will their city names be, will the Firaxis smartass (that one that said that the HRE represents Eastern Europe) make them up? Can we play both the HRE and Germany on the World map?

I can't believe that most people don't see any problem here. The HRE has been implemented only because of one scenario that many players (including me) don't play at all. That shouldn't be a normal civilization, it's fine if it's available in one scenario though.

 

[Florian]

Ishon,

Alexman didn't say that the HRE "represents" Eastern Europe. He said it covers _parts_ of Eastern Europe, and the Byzantines represent other parts. Now, you could point out that some of those are the same parts, and you'd be right, but no one has bothered to make such a fair criticism yet. Instead you've been acting as if Alexman was a complete ignoramus instead of admitting that he's right about the HRE including parts of Eastern Europe.

Also, I remind you again, the Russians have been in Civilization since its first iteration.

Okay, so how shall we call that Nation? The Holy Romans?

That would be a silly name, but we shouldn't assume that Firaxis can't come up with something better. City names will also be an interesting problem. I look forward to seeing their solution.

 

[Angst]

That would be a silly name, but we shouldn't assume that Firaxis can't come up with something better. City names will also be an interesting problem. I look forward to seeing their solution.

I think that it will be . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . like
Holy Roman Empire . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . German Empire
Holy Roman Empire . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Germany
Holy Roman . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . German

The simplest solution is usually the best.

 

[ERLoft]

...Will the Memory Allocation Failure on huge maps be fixed?
<alexman> The MAF is fixed, thanks to Gyathaar. Now we'll see if that causes other problems...

So, am I reading this right that as part of the patch, the MAF problem will be corrected? Cause if it is, I'm buying. If it's not, I'm not buying it.

 

[Methos]

So, am I reading this right that as part of the patch, the MAF problem will be corrected? Cause if it is, I'm buying. If it's not, I'm not buying it.

BTS will not suffer from the MAF problem, or so they are hoping.

 

[JBConquests]

I'm just curious, (I'm not trying to offend those of you who do care.) how many people reading this thread could really care less about the historical significance and accuracy of what firaxis says or does and what civ's get chosen for inclusion into the game?

Do most people care about this garbage or am I just weird?

 

[Duuk]

Why isn't there a separate Napoleonic France? Because it existed for only a few decades. Why not a separate USSR? It existed for only 70 years. Prussia/Modern Germany has been around a lot longer, and in fact still is.

Modern Germany has been around since 1991. It was created from the reunification of 2 german states.

The German Empire lasted from 1871-1945. 74 years. It was divided into 2 states following WWII.

The Kingdom of Prussia was officially seperate from the HRE for 65 years. It was _Prussian_, not German. At that time, "German" was a generic term while things like "Prussian", "Bavarian", "Saxon", etc were still very common.

The Holy Roman Empire was a loose grouping of independent states covering modern Germany, BENELUX, Austria, Italy, and the late-medieval state of Bohemia. It was officially centered in Aachen but was de-facto ruled from Vienna. It was a power around 600 years.

Prior to that, the Germanic tribes included such famous people as the Vandals, Goths, and Saxons. The Germans sacked Rome!

My assumption since Civ games started is that the "German" civ covered all these, because otherwise a civ is in the game that can only be said to have been a nation since 1871. I have no idea why the Holy Roman Empire felt the need to be included. It would have made more sense for BtS to include multiple era unique units and added the Landskrecht to Germany, added the Minutemen to the Americans, the English Longbowmen to England, etc.

 

[snipperrabbit!!]

You're forgetting the Weimar republic !

 

[HUSch]

The fred is a very good lecture in non-history.
and the last 2 pages are not about the game.
I vote for marsians (green people).

 

[Zachron]

The proper spelling is Martian.

 

[RedRalph]

I vote for marsians (green people).

We prefer the term "Irish"

 

[Commander Bello]

The proper spelling is Martian.

In German it would be "Marsianer"