Why do Praetorians defend over Axeman?

Rachetguy · Sep 2, 2009

Hi... returning to Civ and got dumbstruck in latest game. It's early and I send in 5 Prat's with one city raider promotion, 3 axeman with one strength promotion and 2 spearman with one strength promotion.

To my total shock the AI sends in a string of swordsman with one strengtj promotion each and and all my Prats defend (dieing ingloriously).

Why did not the axeman defend? Prat strength 8
Axeman: 5+10% = 5.5 + 50% = 8.25

and another couple questions:

1. When Spains citadel expires does the experience point bonus go away too?
2. Forest health bonus in city cross - does the tile have to be worked to get it?
Do multi forest in city cross add up? Forest in multi city fat cross, do both cities get the health bonus?

Thanks ahead of time.

killmeplease · Sep 2, 2009

1. yes
2. no, yes, yes

killmeplease · Sep 2, 2009

Rachetguy said:
Why did not the axeman defend? Prat strength 8
Axeman: 5+10% = 5.5 + 50% = 8.25

The way you applying bonuses in your calculations is reasonable but the game makes it in a different way. I do not recall exactly how, it's quite complicated and counter intuitive.

Tristan_C · Sep 2, 2009

The calculation adds all bonuses to the base strength, not the cumulative strength. Thus, Combat1 axemen have a 50+10=60% bonus against incoming melee units added to their base strength of 5.

5*1.60=8.00 (exactly equivalent to the Praet) ...NOT 8.25

the combat odds faced by an attacking combat1 swordsman are 26.8%.

Now, why in the hell the game chooses to field the praet rather than the cheaper axeman (knowing they have identical odds) is what would get me steamed up :mad:

fishhead · Sep 2, 2009

i think it works like this:
5+0.1*5+0.5*5=8
so they are at the same strength and the game probably chose prats because of the higher base strength

Lansky · Sep 2, 2009

Promotions other than combat actually reduce the effectiveness of your enemy, not boost your own strength. The calculations make little intuitive sense. I also assume this is a city, which makes the higher strength Praet the better choice to receive any defensive bonuses such as cultural defense, hills, and so on. Essentially praets are the best at everything and we should bow down to our glorious new leaders.

mechaerik · Sep 2, 2009

Axeman is 5 :strength:

, and combat promos add to that, making it 5.5 :strength:

. Then, the attacking units strength is reduced by 50% for the axe's boost to melee.

Sidder · Sep 2, 2009

Then surely hes stronger then the swordsman?!

mechaerik · Sep 2, 2009

perhaps the axes were wounded?

mechaerik · Sep 2, 2009

After a quick WB test, it seems that a combat 1 swordsman has equal odds against CR1 praets as C1 Axemen.

Rachetguy · Sep 2, 2009

No wounds on either side. My forces were in open ground on the attack (till the fight was over) inside the enemy cultural border.

Thank you all for your input.

bestsss · Sep 2, 2009

actually combat 1 vs archers has better odds (than CR, dont ask the combat system is not exactly intuitive) and allows shock as 2nd promo.
The shock ones basically have no counter.

deanej · Sep 2, 2009

Situational modifiers always apply to the defender (so to the unit when defending and the enemy when attacking). Also don't forget defensive bonus. So:

C1 Axe: 10% + 50% + 25% = 85%
5 * 1.85 = 9.25

Praet: 8 * 1.25 = 10

r_rolo1 · Sep 2, 2009

^^That assumes 5 turns of fortify or a hill, I guess....

P.S You have a typo in the C1 axe calc... it doesn't affect the correct result, though

Thanny · Sep 2, 2009

Looking at the isBetterDefenderThan() code, it seems the tie breaker is unit cycling order.

That order seems to be determined by base combat strength, followed by experience points.

The desired change, then, would be to modify the code so that ties are broken by unit value, where the least expensive unit gets the nod. This is already done, to a degree, by adding up the value of cargo (though excessively, which means you risk losing a more valuable, damaged and empty MC, for example, rather than an undamaged out-of-the-gate one with four cheap cruise missiles on board).

deanej · Sep 2, 2009

r_rolo1 said:
^^That assumes 5 turns of fortify or a hill, I guess....

P.S You have a typo in the C1 axe calc... it doesn't affect the correct result, though

Don't most tiles have an inherent defensive bonus for all non-mounted units?

Fixed the typo.

r_rolo1 · Sep 2, 2009

No. The only defensive bonuses you can get in non-hill, non-forest and non-city or fort land tile is the fortify ( when avaliable .. 5% per turn until 25% ) and against a enemy crossing a river/disembarking

Why do Praetorians defend over Axeman?

Rachetguy

Chieftain

killmeplease

Mk Z on Steam

killmeplease

Mk Z on Steam

Tristan_C

Emperor

fishhead

Chieftain

Lansky

King

mechaerik

Tuturuu!

Sidder

Chieftain

mechaerik

Tuturuu!

mechaerik

Tuturuu!

Rachetguy

Chieftain

bestsss

Emperor

deanej

Deity

r_rolo1

King of myself

Thanny

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deanej

Deity

r_rolo1

King of myself

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