Nobles' Club XXXVIII: Ghengis Khan

dalamb

Deity
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May 9, 2006
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Kingston, Ontario
The Nobles' Club series started out as a way for Noble-level (and below) players to improve their game. Most of the original participants now play at much higher levels, so this has become a way for advanced players to help others learn to play better. You can play your own game at any level and with any mod, but it would be nice to comment on the games of other players and give them advice.

Our next leader is Ghengs Khan of the Mongols.

Ghengis is Aggressive and Imperialistic. AGG gives a free Combat I promotion to melee and gunpowder units; it doesn't directly synergize with the Kheshik, but half-priced barracks help any warmonger. IMP means you get settlers and great generals faster.
  • His UB: The Ger is a stable that gives 4XP to mounted units instead of 2; a barracks and ger put you 3 XP from a 3rd promotion, and one of those rapidly-acquired great generals as a settled Military Instructor reduces that to 1.
  • His UU: The Kheshik is a horse archer with a first strike that ignores terrain movement costs. Unlike HAs, it lacks immunity to first strikes, but its own first strike cancels that of an unpromoted archer, so early on that's a wash. Watch out for drill-promoted archers, against which Kheshiks are more vulnerable than regular horse archer.
Since a few people want the option of not knowing anything about the map type:
Spoiler map characteristics :
Standard-size Arboria. This type of map has a single large continent with lots of trees and deer, which is nice for a civilization that starts with hunting and with a UU that ignores terrain movement costs. It's a smaller map (40x40) with a lot higher ratio of land to ocean than Pangaea, but my experiments reveal that it has about the same actual number of land tiles as Pangaea, which is what matters most for whether some AI has too much territory into which to expand.

As promised in the Bullpen, there are horses within range of either the initial location or some reasonably close 2nd city site.
Noble-level players might want to try out TMIT's horse archer rush strategy, summarized here from a thread on traits for rushing (thanks also to Shafi; I will be editing this segment in response to any additional advice people give in this thread).
Spoiler :
Get Horseback Riding as soon as possible; it's expensive but essential. Backfill Archery while building a Stable/Ger. Build Kheshiks -- lots and lots of Kheshiks. You won't need Axemen or Swordsmen; maybe some Archers for defending conquered cities. There aren't likely to be enough AI Spearmen to be a serious deterrent.

Your Kheshiks will get two promotions. Against flatland cities, Combat II horse archers can win with about 70% odds. Against more strongly-defended cities, use Flanking II, which gives them a 50% withdrawal chance (if they still have movement after attacking); finish the damaged defenders off with Combat II Kheshiks.

One suggested ratio is about 70% Combat II and most of the rest Flanking II. One Kheshik per stack should take Flanking I/Sentry for the extra tile of visibility, so you can see early on whether city defenders are too strong for you, and avoid counterattacks outside cities. One per stack should take Combat I/Medic I. It is important to bypass well-defended cities so you don't get bogged down with healing and waiting for replacements; you can switch to pillaging critical resources, which can force the AI to defend on flatlands where they're more vulnerable.

In rushing a whole continent, make sure to pause and heal when you finish off one civilization, then keep the momentum going and attack the next. Financially, conquest can be economically self-sustaining. You can also damage the AI tech pace so that nobody gets Feudalism (and thus longbows) for a long time.

This works well (for TheMeInTeam, at least) at all levels up to Immortal; Deity AIs can block it.
Starting location:


Finally, a cut and paste (and another slight edit) of our standard doctrine:

There are no hard and fast rules here: fun and learning are our primary goals, but we do request that you update your progress at various points in the game, using the Spoiler feature of the boards.

Tentative posting updates are suggested at:

4000 BC (starting thoughts, no spoiler required for that discussion)
1000 BC or so (how you decided to progress up the early tech/build paths, which AIs you have met, where you're thinking of putting cities, etc)
500 AD or so (after establishing some cities and a possible plan of action)
1200 AD or so (mid-game, Lib race, wars or peace, or whichever happened or didnt, met other continent if applicable, etc)
1600 AD (or when you have decided on a course of action and a specific victory condition)
End of game (Victory!!! or defeat, no shame in losing, especially if you tried a higher level. Learning is what we focus on, not fastest win or biggest empire)

Remember, these are only guidelines. What we really want are your thoughts as the game goes on, so if your strats don't fall into line with those dates, feel free to adjust your reports accordingly.

We also welcome players to ask for specific game advice, as we have a number or stronger players who lurk and help out with solid tips, and of course, we help each other. Replies to specific questions should also be in spoilers, with a simple "@" in front of the person the answer is directed towards.

Special Thanks go to Bleys and TMIT, who really made this series a great one, r_rolo1, mapmaker extraordinaire, for his maps for most of the series, and all of you for playing.

The WB-saves are attached (zipped; they are bigger than standard saves). To play, simply download and unzip it into your BTS/Saves/WorldBuilder folder. Start the game, and load your favorite MOD (if you use one, if not, check out the BUG MOD), select "Play Scenario", and look for "NC 38 Ghengis Noble" (or Monarch, if you want the AI to start with its usual Archery bonus tech, or Immortal for Archery+Hunting, or Deity to add Agriculture). This allows you to play with your favorite MOD at the Level and Speed of your choice. From Quick-Warlord to Marathon-Deity, all are welcome! We stuck with the name "Nobles Club" because it has a cool ring to it.
 

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Noble, Epic. I plan on following TMIT's strategy and tech AH to find the horses (I know where some are, of course, but I'll play it out as though I don't) > Mining > BW (trees, trees, trees :)) > HBR > Archery. I expect to ignore the Oracle completely, despite how tempting I find it in most games. After Archery, I might use Agriculture if any nearby locations need it, but with the Ger and early warfare I expect to unlock the Heroic Epic quickly. So perhaps Masonry, quarry the marble, then backfill the required techs for Aesthetics > Literature.

I wonder if it makes sense to go Writing > Alphabet after Masonry hoping to trade for some of those prereqs, or extort them from dying AIs?

Gotta finish the Victoria game first, though.
 
Deer in the trees! My favorite tile, with Maize (corn on floodplains) coming a close second.

Probably Worker - Worker with Mining/Bronze Working, followed by AH. The map calls for crazy numbers of worker turns, so best get started early. Worker first spits out on turn 10 at normal speed, so I don't believe you have time to dilly dally with AH. Might be wrong - I've not actually done a calculation here.
 
I wondered about mining/BW before AH. On Noble/Epic working the forested deer, the worker is out in 15 turns and you can immediately put a camp on the deer and start building roads. AH is available after 17 turns, which lets you find the horses quickly and
Spoiler what people who don't want to know the map type don't want to know :
On the various Arboria maps I experimented with, you can get pigs and sheep, though I haven't seen any cattle. That might give more for a worker to do if there are either in the BFC, which we can't see all of given all the trees -- not sayin'.
 
The last time I played a game with Ghengis it was at Warlord level.

This time I'm taking the game on at Emporer/Epic... My first proper attempt at emporer.

The start looks pretty nice but I'm puzzled at the best way forward... I was thinking worker first & mining > bronze but looking at the start I was wondering.

Settling in place on the plains hill and working the deer gets a worker out on turn 15 (Epic) and the 2 deer tiles will take 6 worker turns each... 27 turns. Mining and bronzeworking about 40 turns, so the worker will be pretty bored for a while. Even though Animal Husbandry is pretty important I can't see how it could be slotted in beforehand (at least at higher levels)

So the question is with two improvable food tiles is it better to go worker first and waste turns (13) waiting for bronze or go warrior first (8 turns)? I think worker 1st still works out better.

Looking further forward overall tech path would go something like,

Mining > Bronze > Animal Husb > Writing > HBR > Archery

Writing before HBR beacause without getting some science going It'll take too long.
 
I've never played Ghengis before, I'll be playing Prince/Epic. My initial reaction to the map type and location is Mining -> BW -> AH, with Worker/Worker/Warrior/Settler, hopefully have Barracks and Ger up by the time I get Alpha, trade for Archery, and revving up the war machines via mass chopping.

Thanks dalamb!
 
Hmm. Writing before HBR does sound reasonable. WRT AH first, I expected to start building roads towards wherever the horses show up.

AH first isn't a bad idea, I'd almost always go this way with ghengis and other early mounted UU civs plus who knows there might even be some pasture resource in the fog.

The reason I want mining/bronze first is I'm going to need that silver mine to help cope with emporer's extra costs and slower teching :( I'm still not comfortable at this level.

One potential twist on this opening I might consider would be to go settler first (22 turns on epic with these high yeild starting tiles) while teching AH and claim horses really early. Unfortunatley starting with hunting that settler would be escorted by a scout! So maybe not.
 
Without strong commerce, a typical HA rush tech opening is worker techs (essential ones only) ---> AH ---> WRI ---> HBR ---> Archery

After you get writing, build a library and run 2 scientists until you get a GS. Settle him. You'll need that tech boost while you completely wipe out a civ or three. Trade HBR for alpha when you can (partial research alpha after you have HBR, BW, Pottery), then work for currency. With currency you can pay for a lot of expansion, possibly broker for monarchy, and CoL is only 1 tech (possibly extorted) away.
 
Well, I haven't done any write-ups for NC before (or any ever, really), but I figured this deserved one.

Prince/Epic Conquest, 445 AD

Spoiler :
I started with my mentioned Tech path, Mining > BW > AH while exploring some land. I popped a few huts for some gold and a Scout. In 2925 BC, one of my neighbors popped a game-over card...



Ahh, the beloved Vedics. Alas, in 2825, the Ottomans were killed off...





Hindu barbs :lol: All it did was save the Ottomans from my horse wrath.

Anyway, after finding horses North of me, I settled my second city and decided to start spamming units in good old Mongol style. I went Writing > Archery > HBR, built a few garrison Warriors, Barracks, and Gers in my (now 3) cities, and just spammed HA for the rest of the game with the help of all those trees :D. I bulbed Alphabet with a library-fed Scientist to build some research for a few turns in an effort to get Currency, and that allowed me to build Wealth when needed to alleviate some of the monetary issues. I picked up Masonry for some Marble use, and then worked my way straight to Feudalism. The rest of the write up would show nothing but razed cities and chopped trees, so without further ado, so graphs. Note the kills, units built, cities razed, and the spikes on the power graph...







And the victory screen...



Not as high as I thought it'd be. I basically eliminated Monty, Zara, and Roosey immediately. Roosey had the Great Wall, so I didn't need to worry about Barbs. I kept NYC for the Great Wall and Washington for Stonehenge. Every oher city got razed to avoid army strikes.

Once I killed them off, I was close enough to Feudalism where I figured I'd just have the last two Capitulate. I had Gandhi ready to die the turn after I got Feudalism, but Gilgamesh and his Protective Archers proved to be annoying :mad:

I'll leave concluding thoughts for the next spoiler...



Map and game thoughts (without too many spoilers, I hope.)

Spoiler :
I'd never played Ghengis before, but I can't imagine a better leader for a tree-filled map than he with a unit that neglects terrain costs. My Keshiks ran wild, and even though I usually war early, and then sparringly after (I'm a peacemonger at heart), once I saw the opportunity to rage with my horses, it was a fairly easy win. I can imagine it being much more difficult on higher levels due to maintenance costs.

I guess I got somewhat lucky that the Vedics came and ruined the party of one of the leaders, because it made one less enemy for me in the end.

Overall, I think the biggest key to the map type is chopping. I chopped every tree in my cultural borders, and I had troops out every other turn or so in 4 different cities. I know that was probably part of the lesson here (chopping rules!), but it almost made it too easy to spam units due to harvested acres of hammers.


All in all, a very fun game, and quite different for me. Great job dalamb :goodjob:
 
Without strong commerce, a typical HA rush tech opening is worker techs (essential ones only) ---> AH ---> WRI ---> HBR ---> Archery

Maybe I'm reading between the lines too much here, but are you saying skipping Mining & Bronzeworking is an option on this start?
 
I wondered about mining/BW before AH. On Noble/Epic working the forested deer, the worker is out in 15 turns and you can immediately put a camp on the deer and start building roads. AH is available after 17 turns, which lets you find the horses quickly and
Spoiler what people who don't want to know the map type don't want to know :
On the various Arboria maps I experimented with, you can get pigs and sheep, though I haven't seen any cattle. That might give more for a worker to do if there are either in the BFC, which we can't see all of given all the trees -- not sayin'.

Spoiler :
IIRC, there were Cows to the Northwest of the capital location.


Also, I used my GS from the Library to bulb Alpha. It may not be a sound strat for long term empires, but I knew all I needed was quick Currency to build Wealth in order to sustain my army.
 
Why settle instead of building an academy?

I guess it depends on how your game is by the time that first scientist pops. For me I'm hoping to take out a nieghbour fairly quickly. If your running a very low slider (like 0%) due to conquest and are considering to keep the momentum going, running 2 scientist & a settled scientist is better than running two scientists and an acadamy short term, 12:science: vs 9:science:

If your playing more peacefully and have a higher slider Acadamy will definatley better.
 
Maybe I'm reading between the lines too much here, but are you saying skipping Mining & Bronzeworking is an option on this start?

Silver is a commerce tile...so not this time.
Why settle instead of building an academy?

I incorporated your advice into the original post.

An academy isn't going to be helpful for a long time as you capture 10+ cities. Getting critical early beakers towards economy techs will help you markedly.

I usually stop farming GPP after settling the first scientist to boost production again, as by then we usually have access to our mounted.
 
Hi

Prince, Marathon, 1000 AD

Spoiler :
Wow compared to the LHC Peri game which seemed to drag and drag this game seems to be FLYING by hehe.

I settled in place and then since I figured building worker techs or even workers would be pointless until they were able to clear the land I started mining/bw and built a scout first to try and grab more goodyhuts. After the scout I started pumping warriors as I noticed:



Zara was kind enuff to build my second city for me :)

After Zara decided he didnt want to play anymore and masonry was all done I chopped GW in aksum in anticipation of lots of early wars with lots of city razing =lots of empty space so I didnt want to waste time with the barbies. I almost freaked after teching ah cuz I first I didnt see th ehorsies up north hehe. But as it was it didnt really matter cuz the keshiks came to the party rather late it turns out.

It just seems like after games like an old PYL with Toku and especially with that last monarch school game with going to war early and not prepared at ALL for the economy crash I just started going after stuff like mad to get techs to help. So I started chopping/whipping settlers to calme some land. Then I chopped stonehenge for border popping, then mids and in mid build for mids I chopped oracle and took code of laws then finished mids. Doing all this put HBR on the back burner a bit.

Now getting bw very early and getting GW upped my power rating pretty good especially since I settled near the copper between me and zara was making axemen escorts for my new cities. But even so I noticed Monty's power rating starting to creep up on me. So I started to build more axes and later since IW was done (it but off HBR even more but those pigs with the jungle covering em in my caps BFCwas just getting on my nerves and finally I HAD to try and get pastured hehe :p.

Then I noticed something. In another thread I compared Monty to a ******ed puppy. For those of you who may think I was a tad harsh I submit this. Monty started teching Sailing before IW. BEFORE IW he was teching SAILING on THIS map. So:



I figured Might as well hehe.

One thing did happen as I started to push into his teritory. I started to feel a lil guilty about the comparison. I came to find he was teching sailing BEFORE IW on THIS map when he had NO copper. So I would just like to take this opportunity to apologize to ******ed puppies everywhere.

I razed most of his cities but did keep his capitol cuz it was a holy city and one other city just cuz it had TofA in it and by this time I was running Rep and already had the slider going lower and lower so hey any free specialist helps.

I got MOST of Monty's cities excpet one which I couldnt find ANYWHERE. I started to figure maybe he went off and took a barb city clear on the other side of the map. Also another problem was happening. Meh spawned VERY close to monty. Which at first I didnt mind cuz I figured they would bump into each other and slow each other down. But now with those two cities of Montys being my cities Meh was close to ME and since I was having to start from zero culturewise his borders were starting to press up on me bigtime. So I giured Monty could wait and made peace with him and:



It's Meh's turn to feel the Wrath of Ghengis (I was gonna say Wrath of well you know but legal dept said no :p) And I start taking Meh and as economy starting to get dangerous. I wasnt really in danger of strike but slider was soooo low that I wasnt getting much wiggle room since I couldnt lower it much anymore at this point.

Like before I razed most of Mehs cities. Only that dillhole rosie started moving in settlers to fill in the gaps grrr. Since that was gettng annoying and I had been doing my best to make buddies with giggles just so I wouldnt have to worry about him being bribed against me and coming in from north and east while most of my military was out west:



I decided to cause a lil trbl :)

FINALLY meh gets taken care of so:



It's time to go talk to rosie about setting cities in MY land. Goodnews is I DO have keshiks coming out now. Bad news is as you can see slider at 0% and I am at -32 gold. Im living off mostly from gold from captured/razed cities and the odd tech sale here and there. Basically plan at this point is pump units as much as I can and when it finally starts getting bad start building wealth. Which I end up doing. luckily by time bank starts getting too low for comfort a GS sapwns and heck with it I am NOT planing on this game to last TOO long so I use him for a golden age which sends my gold per turn out of the red AND ups my beakers.

I kill of Rosie and now only two big threats are Ghandi and Giggles. Giggles ahd JUST DoWed on Ghandi. So I am thinking yeah Gigglles has been my buddy but then I thought:



Ghengis DOESNT have buddies he has Targets :p

This war is a lil tuffer. Not only is he protective, now has longbows, and his cities been around enuff to get some nice defences AND he has ellies.

But I am not TOO worried as by now after all that warring I have some NICE citybuster swords and I got CS done and and egineeer buldbed machinery. But I had choices to make. I do have a pretty nice bank saved up. BUT I am at 4 gold per turn at 0% with most of my city making wealth and once my guys move out of my land that plus for is gonna get negative REALLY fast. I have two cities with 2 GG's settled each so before I made my DoW I quickly made a cpl of combat1,combat2,formation maces to keep the elles off my back and then upgrade my two best swords to maces and leave it at that to keep a high bank for the unit costs. Figued the rest of my swords could still last especially whith keshiks being suicided. Lngbows are tuff but even protective longbows behind defense can have probs with combat3,cr3,cover swords after they get wounded by a cpl of keshiks. I go with Keshiks over cats just cuz I already have LOTS of them so can get started quicker and keshik replacements can get to the front quicker than cats could.

I take cities but it doesnt go as easy as I had hoped. First Ghandi uses AP to end the war with giggles so he can turn his full attention to me. And Giggles keeps sending little stacks into my terriotry which are a pain to deal with. And it seems he is one who built SoZ so WW starts to be a factor BIGTIME.

But then Ghandi trades me Feudalism and cash for like calander or something and I had built MoM already so that helps then a Gspy spaws and after he spawns the next Gperson is only afew turns away SO things are looking up again cuz I figure once that second gperson arrives I can do ANOTHER GA only this time with MoM boosting it and that will let me zoom to guilds for grocers and knights and then merc for banks amd mercantilism which I can then switch into without anarchy. I even find where Monty is hiding and take him out.

Then I get another scare. Almost as SOON as monty dies ap diplo vote win comes up between me and ghandi. I am like "oh fudge" ok I didnt say "fudge" but this forum IS moderated :p. I am not sure IF giggles would vote for ghandi or not but if he does I lose. But then I realize I HAD been spreading hinduism around to my biggest cities BUt I hadnt converted yet. So i do and my votes INSTANTLY dbl and THAT worry is over.

Then a lil bit later a gs spawns and I hit 24 turn GA. Not only LOTS of gold and beakers but ALL those cities that been forced to stay idle building wealth can NOW build stuff so I use that to tech fast through banking and NOW I can afford to keep Giggles cities so I start taking em including the city that had the ellies (although a keshik squad did go over and pillage em it was still nice knowing he couldnt get anymore. They got swamped into ghandi;s culture tho.) Keeping his cities also meant that I could pasue to upgrade to more maces and know kights also coming into the war.

And thats where game is at this point. 1000 AD with giggles down to 4 cities and things looking good at this point :)

Here is my empire:



That dillhole ghandi has been sending cities into gaps over in west now so as soon as giggles is dead I am gonna go fix his little pink wagon grrr. And myabe it just cuz I dont know anybetter but considering a) slider is at 10%, b) I have like 60 something units out in the field, and c) I have NO cities building wealth or resaerch--that 310 BPT and STILL pulling a profit is not too bad :) Well maybe it not all THAT great but at least I have managed to avoid a strike this whole game so I am happy with that :)

Demos:



Not OVERwhellming leads but I am HOPING it good enuff for the shortterm and if it is then I DONT plan on this game going much into longterm (hopefully lib race wont even be a factor)

Tech sitch:



Ghandi still has a ways to get maces and even if gets em I still have Knights and soon trebs if I need em and my combat2,formation spears will be pikes for any ellies he builds.

AP sitch:



Switching to ap religon and spamming it all over now means it shouldnt be a problem anymore.


So thats it so far. It seems to look pretty good now. Plan is kill off giggles then kill off Ghandi. Wish me Luck :)

Kaytie
 
Going to be taking my time with this game, here's the first round...

Update - 1075BC(turn 117) - Emporer/Epic (No events)

Spoiler :

Moved the scout to the west revealed another woodland deer, was tempted to move the settler 2 west and settle on the marble for maybe an oracle > HBR gambit. Decided against it and settled in place which revealed a third pasture resource, jungle pig hill.


Intital tech path... Mining > Bronze > Animal Husbandry > Writing > HBR > Archery


Initial build in the capital... Worker > Warrior > Warrior > Warrior > Settler > Worker > Settler > Worker


Met Zara at turn 4, very close to the west. Popped a couple of huts nearby for 67 gold and free tech aggriculture, nice as it reduces Animal husbandry a bit. But thats about all my scout got as he ran into a bit of bother a few turns later and got eaten by a bear... I miss prince and having that buffer of a first free win vs barbs.

As soon as my warriors were out I soon met Giggles (turn 29/3275BC) hopefully he's a bit further away maybe to the north and Roosevelt (turn 36/3100BC). Also discovered bronze between Zara and myself...



Decided to settle the copper before a horse city firstly because I can hopefully deny Zara this luxury and I'm still waiting for Animal Husbandry. Unfortunatly Bears are all over the place I had to wait a few turns before I could get my settler to the spot. Eventually Beshbalik was settled (turn 47/2825BC) and started on a barracks.

Animal Husbandry reveals horses to the north and a second settler founds Turfan (turn 65/2375BC)




WIth writing libraries get whipped and scientists assigned and its not long before HBR and Archery are in. At this point I get a bit chop happy and every city begins chopping out Keshiks until at turn 117/1075 BC I have my Keshiks poised to strike Zara.



Zara's looking very weak, 1 - 2 archers per city and Roosvelt's even lower in power than him. So after Zara Roosevelt might be next on the list.


All's well so far.
 

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Up to 1AD - Noble/Epic

Spoiler :

Settled in place.
Tech path was Mining > BW > Animal Husbandry > Writing > Archery > HBR > Alphabet > Masonry > Currency > CoL > Aesthetics > Literature (Built GLib in Capital)> Calendar

Traded for IW, religious techs, and sailing.

Once I got HBR online, spammed keshiks, got two civs down quick.



And have a stack of Keshiks waiting for a peacetreaty to run out to take down Giggles' last two cities. (Have been suing for peace on him to regroup/get techs)


Tech Situation


Up big. Gonna finish off Giggles, rex the eastern half of my continent to myself, grab steel of liberalism, and hopefully go domination/conquest :)

 
Silver is a commerce tile...so not this time.


An academy isn't going to be helpful for a long time as you capture 10+ cities. Getting critical early beakers towards economy techs will help you markedly.

I usually stop farming GPP after settling the first scientist to boost production again, as by then we usually have access to our mounted.

While you're at 0%, you can run 2 scientists in the academy city for 10.5 beakers. If you had settled you'd gain 7.5 beakers and 2 citizens making probably around 6 commerce per turn or 2 scientists for another 7.5 beakers, so you can still maintain some level of research. When you turn on the research, the academy becomes useful again. I have had games where I wish I settled instead of built an academy, when I'm losing gold at 0%, but in retrospect I should have been more conservative and razed more cities.
 
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