Changing the way terrain tiles are worked

I've often been frustrated by the lack of realism in the way land is worked in Civ. In the real world, food or resources are often transported long distances to cities - rarely are cities in the middle of deserts, for instance, no matter how many iron mines are nearby. Limiting workers to the BFC and forcing cities to be put in inconvenient locations simply to get a resource doesn't resonate well with me at all.

So I have a proposal.

Firstly, the way tiles are worked is to be changed. If a tile has an improvement on it then it is always being worked, however if a tile has no improvement on it then it is not being worked. Logical, yes?

Secondly, workers are going to be fundamentally changed. When a worker is built, it takes a population point from the city which builds it. This is because these workers are relocating to the tile on which they are going to work. When a worker creates a tile improvement, the worker is consumed as he is now working that tile.

Thirdly the way tiles are allocated to cities will be changed. The resources from a tile are automatically allocated to the nearest city. The tile need not be in the BFC, simply within cultural borders. The worker on the tile still needs food, so this is taken from the city it is allocated to. If the city in question has insufficient food, then the next nearest city is chosen. If no city has enough food, then the tile produces no resources as the worker is scavenging to keep himself alive. Perhaps it could be possible to manually assign a tile to a city...not sure how that might work though.

This would have several effects. Firstly and most obviously it would make culture more important. Every extra tile under your influence would make your civ more powerful. Secondly it would eliminate those annoying unused tiles in the middle of your empire. Thirdly strategic considerations would be more important than economic considerations (usually) when choosing to place a city. A city in the middle of a range of mountains need not be completely dead, as food can come from further away. Also city placement would no longer be a case of trying not to overlap the BFC's too much. Cities commanding large areas would be better off, so poor terrain could be made up for by extra tiles, or super cities could be created in rich areas.

I don't have much to say on your proposal, but I do have one thing that needs to be said:

In the real world, food or resources are often transported long distances to cities

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False. Transporting food long distances is a very recent phenomenon made possible by refrigeration and faster transportation. Also check on how big a tile is in civ (they are the size of upstate New York). So food in civ is already being transported farther than it would have been in RL for the vast majority of history.

I agree with almost everything you said. One of the biggest changes I would love to see in Civ V would be losing the BFC. Resources should be allocated to a city based on distance. A city right by a cow resource would get great benefit from it, while a cow far away would be less useful. However, a player could increase it's benefit by building roads and pastures.

Gangor said:

Firstly, the way tiles are worked is to be changed. If a tile has an improvement on it then it is always being worked, however if a tile has no improvement on it then it is not being worked. Logical, yes?

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Only if you want to conflate "this tile has an improvement" with "this tile is being worked"; what do you intend to do with population of a city that grows faster than it can improve its surroundings ? I do not like it because it reduces flexibility.

Secondly, workers are going to be fundamentally changed. When a worker is built, it takes a population point from the city which builds it.

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This much was in Civ III, and I approve.

This is because these workers are relocating to the tile on which they are going to work. When a worker creates a tile improvement, the worker is consumed as he is now working that tile.

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All workers behave like Civ IV work boats ? This is going to make development a lot more expensive; how would you change the balance of the rest of the game to represent that ?

Thirdly the way tiles are allocated to cities will be changed. The resources from a tile are automatically allocated to the nearest city. The tile need not be in the BFC, simply within cultural borders. The worker on the tile still needs food, so this is taken from the city it is allocated to. If the city in question has insufficient food, then the next nearest city is chosen. If no city has enough food, then the tile produces no resources as the worker is scavenging to keep himself alive. Perhaps it could be possible to manually assign a tile to a city...not sure how that might work though.

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And this just becomes a nightmare of computational complexity, as well as reducing the flexibility available to the player.

rysmiel said:

Only if you want to conflate "this tile has an improvement" with "this tile is being worked"; what do you intend to do with population of a city that grows faster than it can improve its surroundings ? I do not like it because it reduces flexibility.

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And why shouldn't it be inflexible? Once settled people are usually loath to leave their homes. I'm simply making explicit that people live near where they work (on the tiles).

All workers behave like Civ IV work boats ? This is going to make development a lot more expensive; how would you change the balance of the rest of the game to represent that ?

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Reduce the build cost of workers? Maybe it's even free to create them (apart from the pop point).

And this just becomes a nightmare of computational complexity, as well as reducing the flexibility available to the player.

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How is it computationally complex? Once assigned to a city the pops pretty much act as they do atm, except you can't reassign them. Also, as you capture land via war culture or diplomacy, you also capture the people working on the land.

Just taking your first body paragraph, don't you think it's a bit unrealistic to allow for all tiles with improvements to be worked, even if your population is only 1?

Gangor said:

And why shouldn't it be inflexible? Once settled people are usually loath to leave their homes. I'm simply making explicit that people live near where they work (on the tiles).

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That's a realism argument, not a gameplay argument. Inflexibility is a gameplay problem.

Camikaze said:

Just taking your first body paragraph, don't you think it's a bit unrealistic to allow for all tiles with improvements to be worked, even if your population is only 1?

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The population is however many tiles contribute their production to the city, plus specialists in the city. The population lives on the tiles (as real farmers would)

rysmiel said:

That's a realism argument, not a gameplay argument. Inflexibility is a gameplay problem.

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Another gameplay problem is the lack of importance of culture. By having population on the land, having a strong culture to protect them becomes more important

Gangor said:

The population lives on the tiles (as real farmers would)

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Well, that breaks the whole concept of cities in ways that has repercussions all through the game.

Each city is meant to be representative of not just a major metropolis, but dozens of other smaller cities that occupy the countryside in that metropolis's sphere of influence. It's not like you have billions of people around the world all constrained to living in 1 tile sized cities. Because of the nature of Civ's gameplay, you cannot represent all the cities that fall under each metropolis's sphere of influence, because you need graphics to represent that primarily farming goes on here, mining here, etc. etc.

Because of the need for a graphical representation for the type of work going on on that tile there is no room to show the villages, towns and cities that actually occupy each tile. So yes, Gangor, the population is actually living and working on those tiles.

Gangor said:

The population is however many tiles contribute their production to the city, plus specialists in the city. The population lives on the tiles (as real farmers would)

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The city population as is currently represented includes the population of those on the tiles, or so it would seem. I would think it's safe to assume that city population is actually BFC population. Those that work a tile live on it. So if you have 1 population in your city population (BFC population) that one population can be assigned to live on a particular tile, and to work that tile, alongside the original city tile. I don't think the city population solely refers to the population of the actual urban centre, and not the surrounds.

rysmiel said:

Well, that breaks the whole concept of cities in ways that has repercussions all through the game.

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Well, I would use the word "changes" rather than "breaks". That was the intention.

Each city is meant to be representative of not just a major metropolis, but dozens of other smaller cities that occupy the countryside in that metropolis's sphere of influence. It's not like you have billions of people around the world all constrained to living in 1 tile sized cities. Because of the nature of Civ's gameplay, you cannot represent all the cities that fall under each metropolis's sphere of influence, because you need graphics to represent that primarily farming goes on here, mining here, etc. etc.

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So the change is somewhat subtle: Cities now represent those things, just not the people who work those land tiles. The city is the administrative centre, making sure everyone is fed and processing resources into finished products. Tile improvements would be the same as now, except that the population lives on the tile rather than in the city.

Because of the need for a graphical representation for the type of work going on on that tile there is no room to show the villages, towns and cities that actually occupy each tile. So yes, Gangor, the population is actually living and working on those tiles.

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But how is this represented in the game? Are farmers killed when an enemy comes by and pillages their farm? Should people really be able to be miners one day, scientists the day after and fishermen the next? Would that gold tile that doesn't fit into any BFC really not be worked? These are questions my solution answers.

I do like some aspects of what you've proposed, such as tiles that are outside of all city borders actually being useful. However we have to be real careful because if we go with all of your suggestions, then what is the point of keeping the building a city aspect of Civ at all? Maybe some compromise could be found, such as the city's workable tiles remains the same, however some small bonus can be gained from tiles that nobody is working. So lets say that tile with Gold isn't in any city's reach, it could still provide it's bonus to the closest city, albeit at a reduced percentage.

As far as farmers being killed, etc... I think workers are smart enough to gtfo of dodge when the enemy is coming. Historically speaking they've been pretty good about that lol. I think you're looking for a depth of realism that's even too much for me (and Camikaze would say that I'm crazy about how much detail I want in the game, so that's saying something). We have to remember that it's still a game. So in essence, yeah they should be able to turn into a specialist at will. I don't really think this is a point that should be changed.

Like I said though, I think you bring up an excellent point about those unused tiles in the middle of your empire. That has always been an annoyance to me, specially since the damn AI doesn't like to cooperate and ends up ing up the flow of your cities by building within the city radius of one of yours. I think the best solution may be to have those tiles be 'worked' for a small % of the resources they would normally produce, and then add those to the nearest city.

I want offshore resources.

Natural gas and oil? There's already oil but as important as natural gas is I'd be HIGHLY surprised if it wasn't included in civ 5.

trickofthehand said:

Natural gas and oil? There's already oil but as important as natural gas is I'd be HIGHLY surprised if it wasn't included in civ 5.

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At the very least. But other resources would be nice too.

• Special locations would be required to build special buildings, like the RFRE wonders, so you ensure that
  • The improvements/wonders would be built only on coastal cities and not on cities close to land.
  • Acquiring and then defending those resources would be a top priority
• Oil and gas could enable oil rigs.
• Fish could enable fish processing factories and the like.
• You could establish salt-extracting factories. I know, seawater everywhere has salt in it, but you could make it, once again, something important.
• You could do some oyster diving.
• Buried treasures can enable treasure hunters that generate income taxes, as well as attract tourism. ???? Very weird, you could just represent it as a bonus resource, but you never know...

Just some thoughts...
But defending offshore resources would make fleets important as something more than just transport escorts.

I think that might be just a little too much depth for my taste. I think that the bonus gained by the fish and oyster resources is representative of 'fish processing plants' and the such. Maybe an option would be to have it generate extra food thru higher tech?

The salt is actually interesting, the Romans used to pay their soldiers with salt. It's been an extremely important resource for many centuries.

Treasure divers... lol.. I have to heartily disagree with this one. Buried/sunken treasure just isn't very realistic. Although it would be interesting if the game recognized large scale battles and allowed you to memorialize those sites or create memorials in your cities. Could be a minor wonder, and add a small bonus to that city (1 xp for certain types of units, small commerce boost in that city, a happy face...).

trickofthehand said:

I think that might be just a little too much depth for my taste. I think that the bonus gained by the fish and oyster resources is representative of 'fish processing plants' and the such. Maybe an option would be to have it generate extra food thru higher tech?

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Well, you could "discover" those fishing areas, of course, but the point would be that a factory revitalizes the whole town.
Think of this:

• Drying fish pit
  • Requirements: fish resource within city radius, available with whatever tech allows you to see the fish resource, or a "food drying" tech.
  • Effects: acts like a civ3 granary, you can store food inside it, helps with growth and counters famine.
  • civilopedia entry:
    Ancient methods of preserving fish included drying, salting, pickling and smoking. All of these techniques are still used today but the more modern techniques of freezing and canning have taken on a large importance.
    Fish curing includes and of curing fish by drying, salting, smoking, and pickling, or by combinations of these processes have been employed since ancient times. On sailing vessels fish were usually salted down immediately to prevent spoilage; the swifter boats of today commonly bring in unsalted fish. Modern freezing and canning methods have largely supplanted older methods of preservation. Fish to be cured are usually first cleaned, scaled, and eviscerated. Fish are salted by packing them between layers of salt or by immersion in brine. The fish most extensively salted are cod, herring, mackerel, and haddock. Smoking preserves fish by drying, by deposition of creosote ingredients, and, when the fish are near the source of heat, by heat penetration. Herring and haddock (finnan haddie) are commonly smoked. Kippers are split herring, and bloaters are whole herring, salted and smoked. Sardines, pilchards, and anchovies are small fish of the herring family, often salted and smoked and then preserved in oil. Fish are dried under controlled conditions of temperature, humidity, and air velocity. Since the dried product is relatively unappetizing and rehydrating slow, other preservation methods are common.
    
• Fish processing facility
  • Requirements: 300 shields, harbour already built, resource: tuna (within city radius), and tin (from anywhere)
  • effects: increased food output in water tiles... maybe increase city shield production?
  • civilopedia entry:
    In the fishing industry, fish processing is the processing of fish and other seafoods delivered by fisheries, which are the supplier of the fish products industry. Although the term refers specifically to fish, in practice it is extended to cover all aquatic organisms harvested for commercial purposes, whether harvested from cultured or wild stocks.
    The largest fish processing companies have their own fishing fleets, in addition to independent fisheries. The products of the industry are usually sold wholesale to grocery chains or to intermediaries.
    Fish processing may be subdivided into two major categories: fish handling (which is initial processing of raw fish) and fish products manufacturing.
    Another natural subdivision is into primary processing involved in the filleting and freezing of fresh fish for onward distribution to fresh fish retail and catering outlets, and the secondary processing that produces chilled, frozen and canned products for the retail and catering trades.
    Fish processing can take place aboard fishing and fish processing vessels, and at fish processing plants.

So... it could be beneficial, if done the right way.

trickofthehand said:

The salt is actually interesting, the Romans used to pay their soldiers with salt. It's been an extremely important resource for many centuries.

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That's where the word "salary" comes from.

trickofthehand said:

Treasure divers... lol.. I have to heartily disagree with this one. Buried/sunken treasure just isn't very realistic. Although it would be interesting if the game recognized large scale battles and allowed you to memorialize those sites or create memorials in your cities. Could be a minor wonder, and add a small bonus to that city (1 xp for certain types of units, small commerce boost in that city, a happy face...).

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It was just a thought.

Gangor said:

When a worker is built, it takes a population point from the city which builds it.

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i actually never really understood why so many games do this. it seems kind of like saying, "okay, you live here, but since you have a job we're not going to count you in our population."