SGOTM 11 - Who Dat?

pnp_dredd · Jul 29, 2010

yep, can do. It's going to take a looong time to get those 3 GSs though: Our GP farm is only making 28 base GP points. +200% when we aren't in pacifism, for 84 total.

This next GS need 1350-27 points (so actually 1323/84=15.75=16 turns).

The next three would then require a total of 4950 points (if I calculated correctly). This is 60 turns, perhaps slightly less if we use pacifism and starve down. Could perhaps pop a GS from the capital to knock off quite a few of these turns, if we run scientists there (with minimal GE pollution). Our other cities are pretty polluted.

In comparison, it will only take 56 turns at the current tech pace (30% science) to tech Radio-Mass Media once we have Electricity! This could be substantially less if we can deficit tech.

Fluroscent · Jul 29, 2010

Bribe Justinian into war? mainly to keep him away from Devils Gate (should I use Printing Press? the options are Astro and Edu)

In my experience, this will be counterproductive, as he will build more units - but still target the barb city if he feels like it.

beestar · Jul 29, 2010

Hi folks,

1. I'm concerned that it will take 10 turns to ship our our troops, 7 turns to capture two cities (at least), then 3 more turns to get to Fur Island. That's a long time. And securing Furs and Silk are just as critical to our win as getting the UN built (imagine if we have to fight a war vs. Justinian to control the furs, or if we bog down against Mehmed and never get around to setting out for Fur Island).

How about a few turns of slavery to whip out some Galleons and extra units? Their greater capacity would ferry our units to Mehmed's lands faster, or allow us to send a small force of 4 units to seize Fur Island now. In the meantime, GP farm grows, and this food can be converted back into GPP when we switch back to Caste System.

(BTW I suggest building 1-2 Airships to help with our war. They are great scouts, and taking 10%-20% off the top defender really helps. They're also the only unit we can build that will get to the front line quick enough to be useful)

2. It would be great to get visibility into whether our friends are researching Education. There's 10,500 beakers at stake if we screw it up! Agreed to bulbing/teching toward Physics as fast as possible, and then deciding on Electricity vs. Radio.

3. pnp_dredd, when you play maybe have a look at the tradeoff between completing Delhi's Observatory earlier vs. running more specialists?

4. Bribe Toku at your discretion, the only thing I would suggest is waiting until after war is declared - cheaper that way. I would give in to a Izzy demand for anything weak like resources or a map, as that will keep her out of the war.

beestar · Jul 29, 2010

Long term outline as I see it ...

Step 1. War

Capture Mehmed's Silk and Dye, and enough extra cities so that we won't lose the resources to culture (even after we gift a city back to Mehmed). Generate GG if possible. Settle near Dye/Silk if necessary.

Capture Fur Island and settle extra cities there if they have lots of food.

Garrison our new Ottoman cities well, as the chance of Spanish/Ottoman attack is high.

Step 2. Tech

Tech toward Mass Media, triggering Liberalism when appropriate. Once we're done generating GSes in GP Farm, I'd run merchants to drive maximum slider. Maybe build a Market.

Tech Guilds and Banking, to get Mercantilism points with Toku. Trade for them if we can give away something super cheap - otherwise better to retain techs for diplo bribes.

Ship our 4 warriors and 4 GPs to Fur Island.

Spread Hinduism to all cities.

Complete UN in Ottoman cultural land.

Step 3. Appeasement

Gift UN city back to Mehmed (without losing Silk/Dye)

Start a war vs. either Mehmed or Isabella, and bribe our friends in, to gain shared military struggle diplo points with our Hindu friends.

Switch civics and give in to demands to satisfy our friends.

Ensure that we are #1 in population: build farms, grow Fur Island, etc. Unhappy citizens are still UN voters! (In any case, we can run up the culture slider to keep them happy).

WIN

cas · Jul 29, 2010

beestar said:
Long term outline as I see it ...

Capture Fur Island and settle extra cities there if they have lots of food.

Regarding the red portion...if we set up Mehmed as the opponent in the UN, we will have plenty of votes without trying to found new cities.

The fur city just needs to get the resource within its borders (artist specs under caste) and make sure no other AI cities can be settled to culture-border grab it. Devils Gate needs to be taken, of course.

No need to waste time founding more cities...buliding settlers and then trying to defend them against a possible Ottoman/Spanish invasion. Unless you want to found cities for the specific purpose of gifting them to the AI to get more diplo points.

cas

beestar · Jul 29, 2010

Hi cas, I was thinking that we need to be #1 in pop to be the second candidate for UN victory (vs. Mehmed). Right now Toku's #1 in pop.

pnp_dredd · Jul 29, 2010

beestar said:
How about a few turns of slavery to whip out some Galleons and extra units? Their greater capacity would ferry our units to Mehmed's lands faster, or allow us to send a small force of 4 units to seize Fur Island now. In the meantime, GP farm grows, and this food can be converted back into GPP when we switch back to Caste System.

This is a good idea. This way we can leave bigger garrisons in those cities we are capturing from Mehmed.

We'll have a galleon available in just a few turns.

Which 4 units are best to take those barb cities? just 4 CR2 maces?

There is a slight risk of the AI sending a settler through our open borders and plopping a city down 1 square from the fur.

Is it best to eliminate that risk by sending 1 settler + 3 CR2 maces?

This also gives us the option to raze the second barb city (Zhou) and settle our own city, perhaps on top of the fur.

beestar said:
How about a few turns of slavery to whip out some Galleons and extra units? Their greater capacity would ferry our units to Mehmed's lands faster, or allow us to send a small force of 4 units to seize Fur Island now. In the meantime, GP farm grows, and this food can be converted back into GPP when we switch back to Caste System.

The current limitation for getting physics ASAP is getting the last GS. Switching to slavery will delay this GS and therefore slow down physics by a number of turns. There's a good chance that this will translate directly into getting MM a few turns later.

I'm at work so can't check the game, but I reckon we can have 3 maces + 1 settler (settler already available) in <10 turns without slavery.

beestar said:
pnp_dredd, when you play maybe have a look at the tradeoff between completing Delhi's Observatory earlier vs. running more specialists?

I can do this, but it's likely that fastest observatory is best. This is mainly because the Great People points that Delhi would produce are probably irrelevant.

Spread Hinduism to all cities.

ooh, forgot this one. I'll build some missionaries if I can fit them in.

cas · Jul 29, 2010

beestar said:
Hi cas, I was thinking that we need to be #1 in pop to be the second candidate for UN victory (vs. Mehmed). Right now Toku's #1 in pop.

Hmmm. With a couple of Mehmed cities (does % pop that is native versus conquerer in a city matter?), Devils Gate, and fur city + growing our core population population by not whipping...not sure that will be necessary.

Every city we found is also going to hurt maintenance gpt overall, and we have to research as fast as possible.

But maybe you're right.

cas

beestar · Jul 30, 2010

cas said:
Hmmm. With a couple of Mehmed cities (does % pop that is native versus conquerer in a city matter?), Devils Gate, and fur city + growing our core population population by not whipping...not sure that will be necessary.

Every city we found is also going to hurt maintenance gpt overall, and we have to research as fast as possible.

I don't think culture% counts, as that would hurt a city which we founded but was receiving pressure from a neighbouring culture monster.

Hmm, like you say we'll get some pop from Mehmed and Devils Gate - maybe we'll have enough pop by ourselves. We can decide whether to settle some extra filler cities after the research to MM is done.

beestar · Jul 30, 2010

pnp_dredd said:
Which 4 units are best to take those barb cities? just 4 CR2 maces?

There is a slight risk of the AI sending a settler through our open borders and plopping a city down 1 square from the fur.

If I recall correctly, DevilsGate blocks off the south altogether (and ice blocks off sea access) so we should be safe. Maybe 3 maces + 1 settler + 1 catapult to sacrifice / take down cultural defense. We could temporarily use an Airship and attack from Justinian's city if we need some extra horsepower (e.g. if the barbs get longbows). At least getting some of our units standing outside DevilsGate ASAP will be useful - then if Justinian starts to attack, we can swoop in and finish off the city.

The current limitation for getting physics ASAP is getting the last GS. Switching to slavery will delay this GS and therefore slow down physics by a number of turns. There's a good chance that this will translate directly into getting MM a few turns later.

True, but bogging down in our war with Mehmed will also cost us turns while we devote resources to war, rather than teching. Losing Fur Island will cost us a LOT of turns in reaching our end goal. A few turns of whipping gives overwhelming military power, and helps us finish the war sooner.

It also helps us start the war sooner because we don't have to divert units to Fur Island, and whipped Galleons can help us reach Bursa quicker. This means less time for Mehmed to tech up, less time paying army maintenance, etc. Once we start conquest, gold will start to roll in and we can self-tech faster as well.

Spread Hinduism to all cities.

Click to expand...

ooh, forgot this one. I'll build some missionaries if I can fit them in.

Nah, I'd say Wealth for now to tech fast, and missionaries after we finish MM and are just waiting around to finish constructing UN

Fluroscent · Jul 30, 2010

One missionary to convert Justins city on fur island is probably wise, since that should eliminate the risk of him going islamic suddenly (unless the city already has islam). We can also ship two warriors on the same ship, to MP the two cities there, and free the maces+whatever to join the attack force.

If we can attack Devilsgate before longbows appear, then CR2 maces should work nicely. With 50% culture defense, I'd expect bombardment to require too many turns(or too many catapults). I like using a couple of airships instead then, since they are so mobile.

pnp_dredd · Jul 30, 2010

Galleons won't let us attack Bursa any faster. It'll take 4-5 turns to ferry over our 18 units (using 3 galleys) into Izzy's territory, then 5 turns to walk to just outside Bursa (Engineering could reduce this by one or two turns, but getting engineering means trading Zara printing press, which is a significant risk). Declare war and 3 turns later we can take Bursa.

So we'll have Bursa in 12-13 turns.

We can have 2 galleons built in 3 turns. But they can't help with the Bursa attack, because it will then take them 6-7 turns to get into position.

If we don't build airships, then we can have the Devils Gate force (4 maces in a galleon) in position on the eastern edge of our continent in 10 turns. Then 6 turns later they can take Devil's gate. During this time we can build missionaries etc and we'll have a galleon available whenever we need it.B

So we'll have Devil's gate in ~16 turns.

I don't think that whipping will get us there any faster - most of the turns are spent walking land units into position.

We won't be able to build airships for around 16 turns (that's when we get Physics).

beestar · Jul 31, 2010

Is this using the Galleons to drop off units right next to Bursa by sea? (For that matter, can the galleys drop the last few units of our army into position by sea? This might save some turns in offloading units and walking them through Spain)

Your call since you've got a good look at the micro. Let's get this show on the road! Where's that war emoticon ... ah here we go :ar15:

pnp_dredd · Aug 1, 2010

Everything working smoothly and I've stopped to discuss where to send our army next.

Education-gazing

For Education we'd get the following:
880AD
Zara will trade Engineering, Feudalism, WM + 50 gold (out of 80 total gold). WM is worth 10 gold.
Justin will trade Feudalism, Music, Drama, Archery, WM and 50 gold (out of 50 gold). I can't find any trade which includes a fraction of either his or my gold.

940AD
Zara will trade Engineering, Feudalism, and WM (he's got no gold)
Justin will trade Feudalism, Music, Drama, Archery, WM and 85 gold (out of 90 gold).

970AD
Zara will trade Engineering, Feudalism, Archery and WM
Justin will trade Feudalism, Music, Drama, Archery, WM and 75 gold (out of 120 gold).

Based on the above it doesn't look like either of them is putting lots of beakers into Education.

Diplo:

Begged 60 gold from Justinian (900AD)
Begged 80 gold from Saladin (900AD)
Toku didn't wanna give 80 gold (910AD)
Zara didn't have anything worth begging
Begged (!) 5 gold from Izzy (!) just before declaring on Mehmed (950AD)

Nothing tricky.

Tech

970AD Completed Sci Meth, began Physics (currently 1129/9360). We need to put around 2460 beakers into Physics before we can bulb it. We'll have our third GS in 6 turns.

War

We are 1 turn away from landing 3 maces on FurIsland.

950AD (turn 240) we declare on Mehmed.

970AD took Bursa. Was guarded by 2 LBs and a mace. Lost a single suicide catapult.

We've got a settler coming, who will be able to found a city in around 5 turns on the yellow X.

Need to decide what to do with our army now (see attached full-res screenshot). We want a UN city. One option in the pink cross (pretty poor option) Alternately we can take another of Mehmed's cities. The pink dots show where there is probably another city that is currently fogged.

[damn, just realised that I should have traded for Izzy's map while she was Pleased]

I've uploaded the save if anyone wants a better look.

Session log:

Spoiler :

Fluroscent · Aug 1, 2010

Excellent news. We look strong here now. I'd say we should at least capture Erdine+ pink dot city. That should ensure our culture will be dominant. And THEN some other city to gift.
Gifting back one his high culture cities will risk losing us the dye later.
Erdine is also a good city with mature cottages that will generate some GNP.

Again, the best candidate for UN is a city that:

1. Is giftable to Mehmed or Izzy
2. Has forests to chop out the rest of the hammers after GE rushing.
3. Has some hammer tiles as well.

Oh well, I am up next anyway, so I'll take a look at the save and try to assess the situation better.

Fluroscent · Aug 1, 2010

Ok, some points.

-The pink dot city is likely his capital. It seems to be where he built GWall. And it's likely it holds the useful Parthenon as well.

-There is a real risk that Justinian will go Islam. We should build a missionary and convert Laodicea ASAP to be safe.

-The weird non-river FP could be farmed right?

-Samsun is a nice UN target city. It has 4+ forests, and both food+production in its inner ring. And it has hinduism, so we could speed it up by going OR/slavery for four turns.

-So my suggestion for an attack route: Capital(pink dot)->Erdine->Samsun. That should ensure all our goals are met. However, if he has a stack, we may want to fight it from Bursa first.

-Fur Island: 3 CR2 maces SHOULD get the job done, but it is not a sure thing.

-Tech: Assume you play until Physics. Then we can see whether we gamble on liberalism or not for the next set. Keep an eye on those guys obtaining other techs, or popping a GS, which may change the education picture.

beestar · Aug 1, 2010

pnp_dredd, it looks great with the war proceeding well and the Education-gazing proving we have some margin. And nice move with begging Isabella for 5 gold!

I've updated the stickies and added a timer so we know when we are eligible to shamelessly beg our friends for more gold.

Everyone's comments above sound fine, including the settling and attack targets. Definitely need to attack northward to clear the culture from the Silk.

City names are given in this thread. The first 5 Ottoman cities are ISTANBUL, EDIRNE, ANKARA, BURSA, KONYA, SAMSUN, GAZIANTEP. Looking at this and the Great Wall graphic suggests Istanbul is 2N of the corn. Note that Parthenon is already expired for us, thanks to SciMeth

If things don't go well in attacking DevilsGate, I would try very hard to keep one unit alive. Don't want Justinian to snatch it away from us while we are getting reinforcements.

Micro notes.

If we have some extra sea transport capacity, move some workers over to Bursa. It's not connected to our empire and we'll need a coastal fort there (the silk and dye happiness would be useful)
Our boats happen to be well spaced along the supply chain. Might be able to chain-galley to move units to front line quicker.
We are trading to Sugar to Justinian for Fish - we can get gpt instead
We might be able to get more out of the Horse trade to Saladin.
Toku's running Mercantilism, so at least one civ out there has Banking (and Guilds)
Might be able to squeeze out a bit higher beaker rate by running merchants rather than scientists in Calcutta.
Either Pataliputra or Vijay should work that Marble quarry
The bribes to enter war with Mehmed are all too high. Even Toku wants Philo and Optics.
GG timer is at 8 out of 30 needed for our first GG.

beestar · Aug 1, 2010

Bulbing and Rushing

Bulbs are worth way more than I thought - 2682 beakers if triggered in Varanasi and Delhi. We're only 185 beakers away from exactly triple-bulbing Physics, and we'll actually overshoot a bit even if we switch most scientists to merchants and run at 0% slider.

The other option (which I think is what pnp_dredd was planning for) is to double-bulb Physics and save the third GS for Electricity, in which case we'll need to rack up 2867 beakers for Physics (~7 turns).

We could triple-bulb Electricity which would leaves us only 2484 beakers to have to self-tech to finish it (~13 turns). Need to be careful not to overshoot.

Also, I was searching for the formula for GE rushing, and I think it's 750 hammers + 30*pop on Epic. So if Samsun is pop 8 when we trigger the UN rush, we'll have about 400 hammers left to finish it. Don't know if GE hammers are multiplied by OR +25%.

cas · Aug 1, 2010

First, great progress dredd.

Fluroscent said:
Ok, some points.

-There is a real risk that Justinian will go Islam. We should build a missionary and convert Laodicea ASAP to be safe.

-The weird non-river FP could be farmed right?

...

I agree getting a Hindu to fur island is key. I did not look at the save, but if Just's city on that island already has a religion, we could convert Devil's Gate and then build/whip Hindu missionaries from there.

If you are referring to that map-maker error non-river FP near Calcutta, I tried farming it during my turn and the answer is no.

Agree with the general attack strategy on Meh. Definitely need to watch out for his stack and try to finish asap before Isabella gets dragged in to war against us. Isabella joining the war could put a big dent in your plan to take 4 cities.

cas

cas · Aug 1, 2010

beestar said:
Bulbing and Rushing

Bulbs are worth way more than I thought - 2682 beakers if triggered in Varanasi and Delhi.

I stated in an earlier post they were worth ~2650 each.

And it goes up slightly each time you use one. Might go up with each tech you research too...not sure.

cas

SGOTM 11 - Who Dat?

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