SGOTM 13 - T'dr'duzk b'hazg t't

I guess this wasn't that clear. But my other interesting discussion point was Victoria. She has two cities, she's backwards, and her capital has Stonehenge and the Temple of Artemis. We have access very soon to axes and already have 3 move galleys. Also we met her relatively soon so she should be close, somewhere to our Northeast if iIrc. Let's go take her stuff!

Yeah, I missed that. That sounds like a better idea than going after Ragnar. Grabbing another capital early (and one with wonders) would really strengthen our position. We should scout her out ASAP (the focused espionage was a good idea).


I think my math will be about right on the GP in Paris. Probably more like 25% Engineer. I'm going to say hang out to an engineer for the great library and settle a prophet right away for the hammer boost. Also, the capital is getting enough commerce now that we're going to want a library soon after Colossus.

Definitely agree with settling the GP and building a library.
 
Ok looking at the save we can get Curr in 16 turns @-9gpt so we're not there yet. A 20 turn set should get it.

As regards Vicky I say yes on going after her, once she's found. She seems to be somewhat caught for space or gone too wonder-happy.

As regards the dye/horse/rice/spice island I'm not sure if the current suggestion by Trystero is the best idea. It gives a good northern city granted, but it leaves the south bare of a good site. My preference here would be settle first on the jungle 1W of the horse and have a second city 1W of the rice. It does kill one of the hills but it does allow fish into a BFC, and I've a feeling we'll be mass-whipping an army at some stage, so food may be more important than hammers ever will.

On the Joao trade Poly/IW request gets the same three techs demanded.

Do we want to test the game, or will I post a PPP and ye rip it apart (tomorrow)?
 
Do we want to test the game, or will I post a PPP and ye rip it apart (tomorrow)?

Meh. Testing the beginning was fun, but I think trying to accurately worldbuilder this situation is going to be a real pain. Why don't you post a preliminary PPP and we'll work from there.
 
Meh. Testing the beginning was fun, but I think trying to accurately worldbuilder this situation is going to be a real pain. Why don't you post a preliminary PPP and we'll work from there.

OK expect to see one in c. 12 hours. I have the germ of a one from what's going on here, but I'll look at builds etc.
 
As regards the dye/horse/rice/spice island I'm not sure if the current suggestion by Trystero is the best idea. It gives a good northern city granted, but it leaves the south bare of a good site. My preference here would be settle first on the jungle 1W of the horse and have a second city 1W of the rice. It does kill one of the hills but it does allow fish into a BFC, and I've a feeling we'll be mass-whipping an army at some stage, so food may be more important than hammers ever will.

I agree. I didn't spend too much thought on the dot map to be honest. Getting 2 cities on that island is the better option. And if we are going after Vicky first, settling there is less of a priority. At least until we finish scouting our surroundings and see what all our options are. Access to iron might dictate where we settle next.

On the Joao trade Poly/IW request gets the same three techs demanded.

Sounds good to me. Agriculture is so cheap it's not much of a factor other than to throw the trade enough into the AI's favor to make it doable. Alpha + Med for Poly + IW sounds like a good deal to me. Especially since no one else will give us IW for anything that doesn't also include MC.

Look forward to seeing your PPP.
 
Make the trade with Jaoa. Its a good one.

If we are talking city sites, there are 2 that are compelling:

- Copper, this has to be a priority for Colossus. Paris could probably build the settler first, then finish Colossus with the copper connected.
- 2 clams site to the NE

Settling on top of the Marble could be tempting as well.
 
OK I've got some ideas here.

Builds first:
Paris; We'll need to grow the city if we're changing to a settler. So one more turn on the Copper Man, then change. This way I can get the settler time from 15 turns to 11 saving 3 (without whipping). Calculate max overflow into Colossus.

Orleans:
Grow the city one pop, then stagnate by taking off the land based food resource, putting him on coast and putting the new citizen on the desert hill. Work the trireme to Max overflow and then whip out. Put the overflow into a granary.

Lyons:
Whip this turn. Will have 40 hammers to put into a granary. City will grow back quickly.

Rheims:
Grow to 4 pop then whip the library into a granary.

New city placements:
I've devised three sites for the copper city, aside from plopping directly on the copper itself:
Spoiler :

I prefer the red over either of the two pinks as it will give us use of the second fish when we need it. It does have a lot of overlap though. Settling on the copper will get us the Colossus earlier but will also lose us I believe 3hpt permanently.

I will settle one of these (including on copper) so we should decide now.

And my idea for the Horse/Dye/Spice/Rice cities:
Spoiler :

Again there is overlap but mostly sea. If anyone has better please inform me.

As regards the double clam, we need to see more of that Island, so that we can decide which of the two desert tiles is the most useful. There may be something juicy hiding in the fog.

I would also like to scout around the two dye Island north of Ragnar to see what's on the other side. It may be a good idea to steal some of this land off him.

Technology:
First do the trade with Joao, I'd prefer to drop hunting as we'll be wanting MP warriors soon.
Calculating the Currency research. To get it at deficit should take 3 turns at 0% and 16 turns at 100% shaving off a turn of research from breakeven rate. The calculation here was assuming 0bpt and we're on 7 so it'll be even quicker.

Scouting:
In addition to scouting for new city sites, I like the idea of rushing Vicky, so I want to know what direction she came from in order to try and pinpoint her.

Please feel free to add/subtract to this PPP.
 

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Builds first:
Paris; We'll need to grow the city if we're changing to a settler. So one more turn on the Copper Man, then change. This way I can get the settler time from 15 turns to 11 saving 3 (without whipping). Calculate max overflow into Colossus.

I say get to size 4 while working the clams, corn, and engineer. Then start on a settler. Two-pop whip him as soon as you can microing max overflow, as you say, but make sure it's still two-pop. The settler can get a lift down on a galley WITH A WORKER. And get the copper improved sharpish.

Orleans:
Grow the city one pop, then stagnate by taking off the land based food resource, putting him on coast and putting the new citizen on the desert hill. Work the trireme to Max overflow and then whip out. Put the overflow into a granary.

Sounds good to me. Make sure that it's a two-pop whip. We want this trireme out quickly and heading northwest to find Victoria.

Lyons:
Whip this turn. Will have 40 hammers to put into a granary. City will grow back quickly.

Sounds good. I think you might put the overflow into a galley, since I think we need a few more boats. I wasn't very good with them and we've ended up with only one for all transport/protection duty. I'd like a few more and another trireme soon.

Rheims:
Grow to 4 pop then whip the library into a granary.

Again, maybe a boat instead of a granary. :confused:. We should talk about this. Infra or boats?

New city placements:
I've devised three sites for the copper city, aside from plopping directly on the copper itself. I prefer the red over either of the two pinks as it will give us use of the second fish when we need it. It does have a lot of overlap though. Settling on the copper will get us the Colossus earlier but will also lose us I believe 3hpt permanently.

Red dot for the win. It has two tiles of overlap = not a lot, :lol:. It does share the fish. But remember our idea is to work food neutral coastal tiles, not food selfish specialists. So it's not a huge deal especially as it will still have its own fish.

And my idea for the Horse/Dye/Spice/Rice cities.
Again there is overlap but mostly sea. If anyone has better please inform me.

I hate the northern cite. No food is terrible. The fish/rice site is decent. I'm not sure if it's worth heading over there. But it might be a good idea. More team input needed here.

As regards the double clam, we need to see more of that Island, so that we can decide which of the two desert tiles is the most useful. There may be something juicy hiding in the fog.

Agreed. I don't like the city too much given the alternatives that have two food as well as other stuff. But if that city has a fish or another small seafood, it will be decent.

I would also like to scout around the two dye Island north of Ragnar to see what's on the other side. It may be a good idea to steal some of this land off him.

Yeah, on the other hand, we don't want to piss him off. But I've been pro-settling on the same landmass as the AIs since the beginning. :p.

There's another city to our northwest I liked the look of. It had two incense and and a corn. It's not great, but I wouldn't be surprised if the map makers did something like make those the only incense. Also, our empire has the potential for quite a few calender resources. And as this is on the way to Astro anyway it might be useful. Actually, do we even need astro?? Everyone is accessible by galley!

Technology:
First do the trade with Joao, I'd prefer to drop hunting as we'll be wanting MP warriors soon.

Agreed. You might actually, up in the city build section, plan to build some warriors. When lyons gets a few more citizens it can work the stone and two grassland hills and put out a warrior every two/three turns.

Calculating the Currency research. To get it at deficit should take 3 turns at 0% and 16 turns at 100% shaving off a turn of research from breakeven rate. The calculation here was assuming 0bpt and we're on 7 so it'll be even quicker.

I'm not convinced binary is the way to go here. It might be better to just run at ~70% or whatever and get it one turn quicker.

Scouting:
In addition to scouting for new city sites, I like the idea of rushing Vicky, so I want to know what direction she came from in order to try and pinpoint her.

Yes please. I really want to rush vicky now. Axes + galleys = go!
 
Paris is 1 turn from growth as is, so I'll micro for best results but don't need to change.

City sites aside from Copper and double clam are me throwing ideas out there, your corn/2 incence may be better than double clam but I'll explore the clam site first.

Binary is the one that is one turn quicker, and this is based off a calculation that ignores the 7bpt we have from free beaker + 2 scientists, so it'll be quicker. If there are any multipliers or your 100% rate is not divisible by 10 min/max rates are always strictly better. 70% in this case is 20 turns IIRC.

As regards Vicky tell me where she came from & I'll scout her for you.
 
As regards Vicky tell me where she came from & I'll scout her for you.

Ask and ye shall receive:

Turnset: t70-t82

Highlights:
t72: Hinduism founded in a distant land.
t73: Met Joao's WB coming from the NE.
t76: Great Merchant born in far away land (product of GLH)
t77: Paris grew to size 7 and is now unhappy
t78: Joao founded Guimaraes
t82: BW done. Met Victoria's WB coming from the NE.
Edit: And I revolted to Slavery.

Or: Seek and ye shall find. :) (Edit: It would be really useful if our scribe could put links to the turnsets played in one of the first posts. ;))

It's been crazy at work/home so I will get back to you shortly about the rest of the plan,, but it mostly looks good to me.

One comment though: I also think the red dot is best for the copper, but not settling on the copper gains hammers but sacrifices speed. I assume we aren't in any sort of race for the Colossus, but want to make sure that was your thought as well.
 
ATM I can't see a Colossus race (I don't think anyone has MC and we're a good ways along).

I'll look to play this tomorrow, unless a big discussion brews up overnight.
 
(Edit: It would be really useful if our scribe could put links to the turnsets played in one of the first posts. ;))

I'm on it. Give it a few days. :p

ATM I can't see a Colossus race (I don't think anyone has MC and we're a good ways along).

Yeah, I think we're fine. Just don't trade MC away and I don't think we'll have any problems.

I'll look to play this tomorrow, unless a big discussion brews up overnight.

Sounds good! I look forward to it!
 
I would favour a boats/settlers over infra at the moment.

Obviously Lighthouses are the exception here, and Monuments for cities that need border pops.

I still believe that the 2 clams spot is the only spot with multiple food, and production. It might even have a third resource.
 
I would favour a boats/settlers over infra at the moment.

Alright. No granaries. Build boats and settlers. I think by settlers Neil means axes to go take Victoria's cities? Sthat right Neil?

I still believe that the 2 clams spot is the only spot with multiple food, and production. It might even have a third resource.

Well the city down by Ragnar has fish and rice, so it has two food. And it has a grassland hill (we're settling on a second one, :(). Also, London and Hastings(?) will probably both have two food, :D.
 
I like your thinking!
 
I like your thinking!

:lol:.

I think a settler for the copper is necessary. After that I think the remaining options are

double clam spot
corn and double incense spot
clam and marble nearby spot
fish, rice, and spices near ragnar spot

victoria's two (probably three/four by the time we get over there) cities. I think Victoria's cities will be the best. Although with currency + Colossus I think the more cities the merrier. So if you find a city with little to do I'd be okay with it building a settler. Use your best judgment Brian, :p.
 
OK I will play in a few hours, modification to the plan being dropping granaries and building settlers/galleys/triremes instead.

Do we want to start on an army as well?
 
I think we probably should start on an army. We have time to go scout Victoria's land and if it turns out it's really bad or looks like a pain to capture we can alter our plans without too much wasted effort.

I think Lyons can build a barracks and some axemen as it has decent production. After the capital finishes with the Colossus, Lyons can take back that grassland hill. I think that Barracks in the other cities is going to be too expensive in terms of hammers. We'll get promotions quickly enough as it is. Remember to be careful about two-pop whipping axes. You can only put in a few hammers before they become 1 pop whips.
 
Lads we got a GPro on turn 151, we can either settle him (2H, 5G), bulb mono or go for a Golden Age.

At the moment settling will cut the Colossus by 4 turns (less the bonus for copper), from 25 turns to 21 plus overflow.

In other news we have Iron. I found it somewhat belatedly, due to forgetting the Joao trade. And a barb infestation (well 2) has killed our Capital clams and our fish by Orleans. We need triremes stat!

I also found Vick, from the West.

Spoiler :

Logging by BUFFY 3.19.003 (BtS 3.19)
------------------------------------------------
Turn 139/750 (525 BC) [16-Apr-2011 19:13:24]
0% Research: 7 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
100% Gold: 30 per turn, 41 in the bank

After End Turn:
The whip was applied in Lyons
Paris grows to size 4
Lyons finishes: Lighthouse

Other Player Actions:
A Fishing Boats was destroyed near Paris
A Fishing Boats near Paris was destroyed by Barbarian Galley
Attitude Change: Ragnar (Vikings) towards Catherine (Russia), from 'Pleased' to 'Cautious'

Turn 140/750 (500 BC) [16-Apr-2011 19:13:24]
Lyons begins: Granary (90 turns)
Paris begins: Settler (12 turns)
0% Research: 7 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
100% Gold: 28 per turn, 71 in the bank

After End Turn:

Other Player Actions:
A Fishing Boats was destroyed near Paris
A Fishing Boats near Paris was destroyed by Barbarian Galley

Turn 141/750 (485 BC) [16-Apr-2011 19:15:50]
Diplomacy (Tribute Demand): Joao II (Portugal) demands that Napoleon (France) gives Fish; Napoleon REFUSES.
0% Research: 7 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
100% Gold: 28 per turn, 99 in the bank

After End Turn:
Paris's borders expand

Turn 142/750 (470 BC) [16-Apr-2011 19:16:47]
100% Research: 46 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
0% Gold: -9 per turn, 127 in the bank

Turn 143/750 (455 BC) [16-Apr-2011 19:17:38]
100% Research: 46 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
0% Gold: -9 per turn, 118 in the bank

After End Turn:
Whip anger has decreased in Paris
Lyons grows to size 2
Rheims grows to size 3

Turn 144/750 (440 BC) [16-Apr-2011 19:18:24]
100% Research: 48 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
0% Gold: -10 per turn, 109 in the bank

After End Turn:
Orleans grows to size 5

Turn 145/750 (425 BC) [16-Apr-2011 19:19:52]
100% Research: 50 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
0% Gold: -10 per turn, 99 in the bank

After End Turn:
The whip was applied in Paris
Whip anger has decreased in Rheims
Paris finishes: Settler

Turn 146/750 (410 BC) [16-Apr-2011 19:20:52]
100% Research: 50 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
0% Gold: -10 per turn, 89 in the bank

Turn 147/750 (395 BC) [16-Apr-2011 19:21:41]
Diplomacy (Tribute Demand): Victoria (England) demands that Napoleon (France) gives Writing; Napoleon REFUSES.
Tech traded to Joao II (Portugal): Meditation
Tech traded to Joao II (Portugal): Agriculture
Tech traded to Joao II (Portugal): Alphabet
Tech acquired (trade, lightbulb, hut, espionage): Iron Working
Tech acquired (trade, lightbulb, hut, espionage): Polytheism
100% Research: 50 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
0% Gold: -10 per turn, 79 in the bank

After End Turn:

Other Player Actions:
State Religion Change: Catherine (Russia) from 'Hinduism' to 'Buddhism'
State Religion Change: Willem van Oranje (Netherlands) from 'Judaism' to 'Confucianism'
Attitude Change: Willem van Oranje (Netherlands) towards Ragnar (Vikings), from 'Cautious' to 'Annoyed'
Attitude Change: Willem van Oranje (Netherlands) towards Isabella (Spain), from 'Pleased' to 'Cautious'
Attitude Change: Isabella (Spain) towards Catherine (Russia), from 'Annoyed' to 'Cautious'
Civics Change: Ragnar(Vikings) from 'Paganism' to 'Organized Religion'

Turn 148/750 (380 BC) [16-Apr-2011 19:23:59]
Tours founded
Tours begins: Work Boat (45 turns)
100% Research: 56 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
0% Gold: -16 per turn, 69 in the bank

After End Turn:

Other Player Actions:
Civics Change: Victoria(England) from 'Despotism' to 'Hereditary Rule'

Turn 149/750 (365 BC) [16-Apr-2011 19:25:08]
100% Research: 56 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
0% Gold: -16 per turn, 53 in the bank

After End Turn:

Other Player Actions:
Christianity founded in a distant land
While defending in French territory near Paris, Galley 2 (Orleans) loses to Barbarian Galley (1.20/2) (Prob Victory: 67.8%)
A Fishing Boats was destroyed near Orleans
A Fishing Boats near Orleans was destroyed by Barbarian Galley

Turn 150/750 (350 BC) [16-Apr-2011 19:25:56]
100% Research: 54 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
0% Gold: -16 per turn, 37 in the bank

After End Turn:
Paris grows to size 3
Mani (Great Prophet) born in Paris

Other Player Actions:
Civics Change: Isabella(Spain) from 'Organized Religion' to 'Theocracy'


I also have a couple of screenshots:
Spoiler :


Top is our resources, and the pesky barb galley, bottom is Vicky's galley.

I'll put up the save at the GOTM site too and post their log in a minute.

Edit: Gotm log:
Spoiler :
Here is your Session Turn Log from 525 BC to 335 BC:

Turn 139, 525 BC: Logging Game to File: Napoleon.txt

Turn 141, 485 BC: The borders of Paris have expanded!

Turn 144, 440 BC: Abu Bakr (Great Prophet) has been born in a far away land!

Turn 145, 425 BC: You have trained a Settler in Paris. Work has now begun on The Colossus.

Turn 147, 395 BC: You have discovered Iron Working!
Turn 147, 395 BC: You have discovered Polytheism!
Turn 147, 395 BC: Catherine converts to Buddhism!
Turn 147, 395 BC: Willem van Oranje converts to Confucianism!
Turn 147, 395 BC: Ragnar adopts Organized Religion!

Turn 148, 380 BC: Tours has been founded.
Turn 148, 380 BC: Victoria adopts Hereditary Rule!

Turn 149, 365 BC: The enemy has been spotted near Orleans!
Turn 149, 365 BC: Christianity has been founded in a distant land!
Turn 149, 365 BC: Barbarian's Galley (2.00) vs Napoleon's Galley 2 (Orleans) (2.20)
Turn 149, 365 BC: Combat Odds: 32.2%
Turn 149, 365 BC: (Plot Defense: +10%)
Turn 149, 365 BC: Barbarian's Galley is hit for 20 (80/100HP)
Turn 149, 365 BC: Barbarian's Galley is hit for 20 (60/100HP)
Turn 149, 365 BC: Napoleon's Galley 2 (Orleans) is hit for 19 (81/100HP)
Turn 149, 365 BC: Napoleon's Galley 2 (Orleans) is hit for 19 (62/100HP)
Turn 149, 365 BC: Napoleon's Galley 2 (Orleans) is hit for 19 (43/100HP)
Turn 149, 365 BC: Napoleon's Galley 2 (Orleans) is hit for 19 (24/100HP)
Turn 149, 365 BC: Napoleon's Galley 2 (Orleans) is hit for 19 (5/100HP)
Turn 149, 365 BC: Napoleon's Galley 2 (Orleans) is hit for 19 (0/100HP)
Turn 149, 365 BC: Barbarian's Galley has defeated Napoleon's Galley 2 (Orleans)!
Turn 149, 365 BC: While defending, your Galley 2 (Orleans) was destroyed by a Barbarian Galley!
Turn 149, 365 BC: A Fishing Boats has been destroyed by a marauding Barbarian Galley!

Turn 150, 350 BC: The enemy has been spotted near Orleans!
Turn 150, 350 BC: Catherine will trade Mathematics
Turn 150, 350 BC: Willem van Oranje will trade Mathematics
Turn 150, 350 BC: Paris will grow to size 3 on the next turn.
Turn 150, 350 BC: Mani (Great Prophet) has been born in Paris (Napoleon)!
Turn 150, 350 BC: Catherine has founded Yaroslavl' in a distant land.
Turn 150, 350 BC: Joao II has founded Braga in a distant land.
Turn 150, 350 BC: Isabella adopts Theocracy!

Turn 151, 335 BC: The enemy has been spotted near Orleans!
Turn 151, 335 BC: Paris has grown to size 3.


I'm stopping up for further discussion. I think the GPro should be settled (there isn't much difference between settling and GA AFAIK as regards hammers for Colossus). I also think Vicky is a bit far away atm for a rush, we won't get to her before axes and swords are dangerously obsolete.
 

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I'm happy to settle the GP, its probably the best option.

At least the iron is in a decent spot. Also agreed that an axe rush is not feasible, though a sword rush might work, maces are my preferred option. We can always build an army of axes and upgrade them, especially if we have good cash generation.
 
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