manufactory location

What's the consensus on the best place to settle a GE? Originally i thought hills and such were the answer because hey who doesn't like a big hammer tile. but looking at the description it says that it adds 4 IIRC to the tile. Would it then make sense to settle the GE on a plains/grassland etc where it won't be getting any production modifiers?

Basically what i am asking is: does settling a GE on a tile that could get an improvement leaving on the table?

Grasslands river is best: 2F, 4P, 1C

Or

Plains river: 1F 5P 1C

Make sure its a river to get the commerce. Grassland gives you the food needed to work the tile so is optimal!

I still prefer to put a GP improvement on a sheep or cow tile next to a river. Before the improved stable in the last patch it was a no-brainer, but I still go that route to avoid plopping an academy on what might end up being my only source of coal or aluminum. Like Kamex said, any tile that gives two food is best, to make the improvement self sufficient.

The best location is on a good tile that doesn't have a good normal improvement possible. Examples are: On a cotton, where the normal improvement would give +1 gold, or on a nonriver farm, which normally would give +1 food. Can also put it on a deer, instead of taking the +1 hammer. I advise against putting it on a riverside tile, where there could be a +2 food farm instead.

Smote said:

The best location is on a good tile that doesn't have a good normal improvement possible. Examples are: On a cotton, where the normal improvement would give +1 gold, or on a nonriver farm, which normally would give +1 food. Can also put it on a deer, instead of taking the +1 hammer. I advise against putting it on a riverside tile, where there could be a +2 food farm instead.

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while I agree that the best location is on a tile that doesn't have a good normal improvement, I disagree with your examples.

Cotton also becomes a resource that can provide happiness and can also be traded (therefore provides additional gold, strat. resources or happiness)

I also would not put it on any tile that offers additional hammers when improved (Deer with a camp), as those hammers will have more modifiers placed on them (RR, Factory, GA etc.)


Personally, I would save the GE for a wonder almost every time. The only exception being late game, by which point you will likely already know where the strat. resources are. If for some reason you have to use it early, I would say a plains tile as it is least likely (I think) to have a strat. resource pop up. and won't provide additional hammers otherwise. Next choice would be a grassland. (exception being if I had a hills heavy territory, in which case that additional food would be very important)

Sheep. It isn't even close, and I can't understand why it never gets mentioned in this discussion. Fertilizer comes so late that the extra from it isn't a consideration, so you're basically giving up +1 for +4 and the tile gets yet another with a Stable.

Martin Alvito said:

Sheep. It isn't even close, and I can't understand why it never gets mentioned in this discussion. Fertilizer comes so late that the extra from it isn't a consideration, so you're basically giving up +1 for +4 and the tile gets yet another with a Stable.

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Sheep is probably the best tile. While the value of lost food is equal to plains or grassland, a strat. resource will not pop up there. (assuming one has atleast one other cow, sheep or horse to be worked available)

Martin Alvito said:

Sheep. It isn't even close, and I can't understand why it never gets mentioned in this discussion. Fertilizer comes so late that the extra from it isn't a consideration, so you're basically giving up +1 for +4 and the tile gets yet another with a Stable.

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Yes, same as for an Academy, IMHO.

However, what are your current thoughts on whether to use the Meritocracy GE for a Manufactory? I still much prefer to use him for an early wonder as the 1 culture and GP pt are also useful game long, not to mention the free tech or SP or whatever from the wonder.

If launching and peaceful (you seem to have much better luck remaining at peace on Pangaea than I) I often RA block Fertilzer anyhow when going for a SpaceShip. Normally I'm in some conflict or another or expecting one, so I get Dynomite and then RA block. Perhaps I should always get Fert. for the bonuses?

Thx .. neilkaz ..

I usually get Fert myself. I do agree that manufact on sheep is good placement.

there are plenty of other threads on value of manufactory vs other meritocracy options.
sheep is best. i tend to just plop him where he lands though it depends on the goal of the game - how many tiles you're working, how many you're going to be improving, etc.

I like to settle great people early then use their rush options later in the game when you can really get the most out of their hammers, beakers, etc. I only use the rush options when the short term gain is clearly better.

I typically put the manufactory on a hill for mega-hammers. I have not experimented with putting it on a resource tile as Martin and others have suggested.

@ Smote: The other nice thing about Sheep besides not planting on a hidden resource is that it's a tile you wanted to work anyway. If you plant on a 2/0/1 Grassland, by working that tile you're not working a more desirable tile. Capitals can get enough from Maritimes that adding a single from terrain rarely is desirable.

neilkaz said:

However, what are your current thoughts on whether to use the Meritocracy GE for a Manufactory? I still much prefer to use him for an early wonder as the 1 culture and GP pt are also useful game long, not to mention the free tech or SP or whatever from the wonder.

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This is very situational, and it depends on variables such as game speed, difficulty and victory condition. If you're playing on Quick, you should be playing Napoleon (or Askia with the ruins on) for the Collective Rule -> Landed Elite quick start, and if you pick up Meritocracy later in that setup it's for a GS for a spaceship tech. If you're not playing Quick, on Deity you're going to have to GE early Wonders if you want them, but you can build the Manufactory at lower difficulties or if you don't need Stonehenge/GL/Oracle/Chichen Itza.

The Manufactory gets better as you use it to hurry infrastructure along. If you have a ton of Horses/Cows/Sheep and can tile share it to slap up Stables faster, it returns a ridiculous amount of by accelerating the acquisition of multiple Stables. This is also helpful with Workshops and Universities, though not to the same degree unless you're Rome (where slapping the building up faster in the capital accelerates its production elsewhere).

A Manufactory isn't as good as Landed Elite at accelerating production in satellite cities, so I wouldn't go Meritocracy to push Settler production. The short-term benefits aren't worth the long-run loss.

neilkaz said:

Perhaps I should always get Fert. for the bonuses?

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I usually unblock Fertilizer during the run up to Nanotechnology, just due to the way the tree unfolds. At some point I'm going to have turns that would be wasted unless I put them on Fertilizer. I wouldn't go out of your way to acquire it, now that we know how you can exploit overflow to minimize production time on the last parts. A small increase from growing an extra pop point or two is rarely going to make enough of a difference to justify the research investment.

Sheep. I have been tempted to do this as Rome, never found the right game to do it.

If my meritocracy GE spawns on a forest, I usually settle him on that forest. It's 20-28 extra hammers (20 for the forest + 0-2 turns saved moving him), which is substantial that early in the game. For example, getting your national college up 2-3 turns earlier is huge.

I usually make a manufactory on grassland or floodplain tile next to a river. Seems optimal to me, but others may have different views .

If my city population is reasonable, then I'm sometimes tempted to use up a desert tile. I guess there's no point if that leaves better tiles unworked, but it can be an option.

I always use GE's to hurry wonders or start Golden Ages , but when building a Manufactory is a good alternative, I usually do it on desert or tundra tiles, because the Manufactory will provide + 4 in any kind of tile. Deserts and tundras will not provide much from other improvements, but its outcome from the Manufactory will be the same.

If you put a farm on a grassland or plain the food surplus from that tile will compensate the lack of food outcome from the desert or tundra with the Manufactory.

Well, this have been my line of thought, but maybe I'm wrong, since most of you seem to agree that good food tiles are the best option.

brasaelal said:

If you put a farm on a grassland or plain the food surplus from that tile will compensate the lack of food outcome from the desert or tundra with the Manufactory.

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4 grassland farm
4 desert manufactory

Both good tiles to work. But imagine that you could farm desert and swap improvements.

2 4 grassland manufactory
2 desert farm

The desert citizen only makes enough food to feed himself. It's better to let him starve to death for 1.

So the moral of the story is, never put a manufactory on desert. You can accomplish the same thing with more happiness by using grassland.

I like to put mine on sheep, as they still get a bonus from the stable for a total of 1 and 7

Putting them on deserts is bad, but either a Grassland, plains or hills tile is fine as the tile withh give you a total of 6 food + production. But sheep, or even cattle will give you even more.

Well the issue is that you are comparing an improvement

Manufactury=4 hammers
Pasture=1 hammer->2 hammers (stable)->1 food 2hammers
Farm=1 food->2 food

Basically it is ideal to put the Manufactury (or any of them) on a tile that
1. has a good base value (so you will work it.. most important at low pops)
2. has a poor improvement value

Desert, Tundra are bad (base=0,1 , improvement =1->2 at renaissance)
So basic tiles (river, grassland, jungle, Forest, hill) are all good. (base=2, improvement=1->2 at ren)

Riverside and Resource tiles give increased improvement value (improvement=2, 3 at renaissance for resources), but also increased base value (base=3)


So for a very early GP, that you want to work very early...putting it on a riverside or a resource is OK. For a slightly later one (cap pop=5+) then put it on a normal (2 value) tile.

The only complicating factor is strategic resources.. avoiding them is a reason to put it on a resource tile. (they really should allow the GP improvements to gather strategic resources)