TSG11 After Action Report

leif erikson

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Hi everyone and welcome to the TSG11 After Action Report thread. In this thread you can post the results of your game. Please state victory date and score (preferably in the post title), as recorded in the Hall of Fame, and the most important: your path to glory!

Please use the Civ5 game submission page to submit your final, first play through, .Civ5Save file, saved AFTER the victory ceremony if you were not conquered (using the "Lemme play one more turn" feature.).

Please also state your HoF score.

Players are encouraged to provide feedback on the game. Some players like to replay the game, and although we will not record the results from a replay, you can still post your new experiences (please state if the game is a replay). The game will not be closed as such, but after two weeks, the results will be compiled, and will not necessarily be updated with reports coming in after the closing date.

Good Luck and have fun! :c5culture:
 
I played straight up honest 100% for the first time. Usually, I'll wait for some games in progress or after action reports to give me clues. Last game I had to play four times to beat it. This one, I thought I could get right the first time, but it just took me too long to get those social policies.

Spoiler :
I settled on the cotton on the inside bend of the river. My warrior ended up finding four different ruins and el dorado, which got me off to a great start. Barbs were no problem in this game either.

I bought a worker with some of that el dorado money and started farming all those flood plains. I worked my one city through all the national wonders but hermitage. I settled two cities to the north to get the whales, cotton, furs, and el dorado. That also gave me coastal access, albeit very late. The rest of my money which was coming fast went to allying CS around me.

Before I began the game I thought about the conflict between a culture victory (vertical game) and a trade network domination/science game (horizontal). I decided to go straight vertical early while simultaneously attempting a warrior archer rush. My logic was that I would have a tiny empire with a lots of puppets to hook up to the trade network. Initially I was only going to settle one more city, and it was going to link my capital to my puppets in a logical way.

This strategy almost worked. Turns out Monty was my near neighbor so I was very greatful for my army. He killed three of my five warriors when he DOWed me, but my archers and remaining warriors gave back twice as much pain. I cranked out a few new warriors and started taking Monty's cities. One city fell, but the next city would be his capital, and my warriors weren't going to cut it. After one city fell he asked for peace and gave me lots of goodies. I used the intervening time to upgrade my army. One of my allied CS gave me iron (thank god) and so I upgraded to swords. Also had my first couple camel archers coming off the line. Monty was up to six cities, and I took four from him, leaving the two crappy cities furthest from me for him to keep. He behaved himself the rest of the game but my fight with him lasted well beyond the birth and death of christ. Monty also never expanded again to fill in our continent, which was what I hoped. As it went, at least he honored our RAs the rest of the way.

I was lucky in that no civ was running away. I didn't find anybody, they all found me, which meant I was quite a way behind everybody but monty during the rennaisance. However, I was cash and resourse rich and everybody else had money, so I cought up and surpassed everybody by the end of the game. If I had gone for a science victory, I would have won somewhere around 320-350.

The reason I couldn't win with culture was b/c of Alex. I had the four CS on my continent locked down, but from the moment I met him, he was rich, had just as many CS, and a tech advantage over me. So I couldn't attack and I knew I was in trouble. Fortunately, Alex was pissing off everybody else and fighting over their CS, so that kept him somewhat in check. I was seeing one CS or the other switching alliances just about every turn in the game. Sully was dominant scorewise early, Napolean was rich as hell, Ramses was building almost every woner in the game, and Caesar was just chilling but doing alright. I never met persia.

I really wanted to win the game with just one or two cities, but my research was not keeping up even with RAs and I needed money to keep my CSs. I also needed coastal access and a city between me and my aztec puppets. Thus I went for a three city approach by settling both cities after I built ironworks in my capital. I think ultimately this is what made my culture progress too slow. I was able to buy or build every culture building in all three cities, but things just took too long all around.

I built the UN, and I thought I had Alex in check. I went to war with him as a favor to essentially every other leader in about 1500ad and was forever beloved by the other leaders for doing so. I fully intended permanent war with Alex so that he couldn't steal my four CS. It worked. I went with a naval blockade and was able to embargo his main island/continent and kill anything that got wet. Napy and Sully were so rich, Alex couldn't get the CS on their continent for more than a turn, so I thought it was all good. However, I was wrong b/c Alex won with exactly 10 votes which is why I lost the game. Not sure how I missed that, I guess I didn't realize how rich he was, b/c he must have stolen three CS from two other filthy rich leaders on that last turn to win it.


When I lost in turn 367, I still needed 34 turns to complete three more policies and the utopia project. One AI player had four SP branches done, so he might have beat me as well. People were nuking each other as well so the bottom line was I was just too slow. Oh well...maybe next time.
 
I was frustrated and disappointed by my first encounter with the GOTM. I was under the impression that it was an opportunity to learn something and take my game up a level. But I was so hopelessly crushed that I cannot for the life of me see where I stepped off the path to victory. Perhaps you can.

Spoiler :
I founded my city without moving my settler after spotting that nifty Marble nearby. During exploration I found four goody-huts that included a free SP, plus El Dorado. I spent my free cash on a Water Mill and Library and built both the NC and SH, off to a good start!

Encountered Montezuma and was alarmed at the number of Jaguars he had, so I bit the bullet and placed a settler directly on top of the iron resource to the west. While this was in process he declared war and traded a lot of Jaguars for a dead Scout and a temporarily captured worker. I built a number of swords and counterattacked, puppeting three of his cities and the Cape Town CS. I was very surprised to see Alexander on the continent with a city and a large army, so I chose not to finish off Monty, leaving him as a buffer state.

There were a few rough turns while I consolidated, building a "linking" city near the cotton resources to the east. I had also settled to the north to gain the fur resource, but once the road network was in place the cash started to roll in. I was getting RA offers (and accepting them) from virtually everyone, making money off of excess cotton and generally living the high life.

The fly in the ointment was Alexander, who had double the VP of the next player and was several techs ahead as well. He was expanding like crazy, settling all over the place including the spot to the north near El Dorado. I've seen this before in other games where Alex becomes a juggernaut thanks to his huge gold advantage + CS + patronage. Despite all my cash I could only bribe away one of his CS, and he was leaving everyone in the dust on the tech tree.

He declared on Monty and started rolling him over. By this time I had built what I thought was a decent military and decided that my only chance to stop him was now. I could get no traction with any other powers, none were interested in tangling with him. So I went in confident that I could take out the northern city he founded while he was taking out Monty (Tenochtitlan was especially tough) and then move my army south.

Imagine my dismay to see wall-to-wall units outnumbering me by 5:1 - PLUS the CS units and PLUS having artillery vs. my cannons. Worse still, Monty signed a peace deal almost immediately which included Open Borders. I lost all my southern cities but kept fighting on, despite the sudden appearance of Tank units. But when he completed the Manhattan Project while I was still building Riflemen I threw in the towel.


How does this GOTM compare to others in the series in terms of difficulty?
 
I feel like I did a pretty poor job with this game. Interested in seeing how everybody else faired...

I was planning on working with a puppet empire to keep culture costs down, but it seems like Montezuma was pretty content to stay put. After building a national college and a small army I waited around for a while to steal the cities that I was sure he would build next to me. Those cities never popped up, so I built a road down towards his cities, marched my units alongside the workers, and got my arse handed to me trying to get around all those forests, hills, and jungles into a good volley position for my archers. Eventually I ended up having to retreat, and by then I was so far behind that I decided to turtle up into an OCC.

After reading some of the discussions on here I decided to try and research my way straight into the renaissance in an attempt to get the freedom policies early. (I believe this is known as slingshotting?) It turned out to be a horrible horrible move. I didn't have any of the production or infrastructure from the other policies that I normally would have at that point. I went through education for the university and got to archaeology fairly quickly after that, which wasn't easy considering the lack of RA's from being stuck on our starting continent with Monty.

After landing in the renaissance I realized I'd have to get a lot of the technologies I'd skipped in order to build the opera house required for the museum/hermitage. Even after doing so I hadn't factored in how rediculously long it would take to build those structures without a workshop/ironworks, so I wound up going all the way back down the bottom of the tech tree anyway.

Eventually I got the hermitage up and running around the same time I was discovering everybody else. I sold a bunch of cotton and paid off most of the city states for my research/culture/food since I had no empire of my own to speak of. This worked fairly well with the patronage policies, and eventually got me across the finish line in the 1800s after building Cristo-Redentor and a broadcast tower.

Victory:
Spoiler :


Arabian Khan! (Thank you Cape Town + Educated Elite):
Spoiler :


Also worth noting, the submission database says: "Culture Wrong VC" or something like that for my submission. Was that because I submitted a save from the end of the that I won on? Since cultural victories occur at the beginning of your turn instead of during your turn I guess that threw me off. How can I resubmit it?
 
Made many mistakes. It was my 2nd cultural victory since i own the game.

Spoiler :
In the beginning, i found El dorado...but after Monty discovered it. :mad: Damned map ruins showed nothing interesting north of me except that little cloud(which have been El Dorado :lol:). I found a culture ruins tho, built monument after scout and i picked early Meritocracy for a GE that i immediately settled. But i sold 2 lux to get back the 600 gold from Monty. So that wasn't that bad after all.

Oh Monty. I signed a RA with him to discover later that he went at war with me on turn 70 with warriors and archers. He did that 4 times in all the game. 2 RAs busted. But city location was perfect for easy defense.

I founded a second city north of capital with many other cottons that i sold to other civs when i discovered astro. A bit later i signed another 2 RAs but screwed it again with bad timing. Got 2 techs already blocked. 500 gold to garbage. :blush:

When i got archeology and acoustics i struggled to get critical buildings fast enough. After the mad part, i finally got some RAs giving me the good techs until Cristo and Broadcast Tower. Again, had to hard build them.

I got Stonehenge and missed the GL by 3 turns. I've got the other nice wonders from Ren era we all need for a cultural victory for later turns.

Monty was really pathetic at war and i easily repulsed him with an archer and a couple of warriors and spears/pikes in all 4 wars.

Bad timing of gold needed to rush buy buildings and really bad timing of RAs made me lose a lot of turns and gold. I even forgot to use Oxford to pop a late tech. But i won the game, and i'm happy for that. :)

It was my very first experience with AI since last patch.


Maybe i played the game a bit too fast after all.
 
Ended yesterdays session when I started Utopia in turn 241 - 12 turns to build - so if Ramses or Monty dont go too crazy for me this should end in turn 253.

Overall pretty OK game I think, even when lot of micro stuff (in teching) to improve.

But when considering that Monty broke 3 RA agreement which did cost me overall proly more then 1000 gold and expectations and egypt didnt like me from the turn I meet it. It was kinda allright.
Was even bit lucky that 2nd last RA agreement gave me redundantor tech when 1,5 half others werent blocked.

Could shave off some turns here and there f.e. I d build utopia in about 8 if i d have done 2 more RA agreements for solar plant - swimming in money anyway.
Got like 70 turns of GA in last turns here - 4 generals (got 2 generals from landed elite - yipee ....), happy and sp.

Turkey was so cash loaded all game - crazzy - did have 1000g + ALL TIME - did lot of loans with it to be able to gift other ais money for RAs ..

In End sp were flying in every 4 turns or so.

- Things to notice - not every landbrigde really leads to another continent :(
- the system of RA agreements is imprementet badly and not fun - having to "plan" 30 turns ahead is just not intuitve - good games give you outcome of "investions" faster, not after 1 hour of more playing
- diplomacy systems suckz, Monty declaring war when superfriendly to me; egypt warrning world from me after like 3 turns I met it and no deals at all with it ... just not well designed - there should be ways to improve relations or stop civs declaring war (like in old civs they d ask for money before declaring - why isnt this feature there yet?)
- having to check trade deal options every turn or so is not fun ..

Guess this was my last game of civ5 sp, diplomacy overall is so badly implemented and unfun, no point in playing singleplayer - maybe they ll fix mp some time so I ll come back to civ5.

How can others enjoy the broken trade/RA/relationsystem?

Think even in civ1 its been better ...
How can some überdude in HOF talk about "exploits" when all diplomacy is just totaly broken? Like it was our fault and not Firaxis.
Sry with this dumb moderators even civfantaics is history for me.

edit: ended it now - turn 253, this last session remembered me how lagy like last 100 turns have been.
Ai needs some (a lot!) fixes or SP just not worth the time
 
How does this GOTM compare to others in the series in terms of difficulty?

I agree this map was difficult for four reasons. (1) Non-coastal start, (2) Stuck alone with Monte, (3) Alex, (4) Ramses. The last GOTM was really hard for me too. It took me four attempts to beat it. This one just really pulls you in too many directions. If it was a domination or science VC, it would have been easier.

If you replay the map, you will do better, and you will learn.
 
I was building Utopia (7 turns to build) but got Defeated by Egypt's Diplomacy Victory.

Spoiler :
At the end, Ramses II was sitting on a 32k treasury and making ~500 gpt, so there was nothing I could do about his Diplo victory.
At mid game I did fine with a (second) attack by Montezuma, destroyed his invading forces and striked back by razing one of his cities, puppeting another and liberating a CS. After that he offered pretty good terms. I didn't see the third wave coming though.. I was going to lose back the city so I decided to evacuate (to save a cat, an infantry and a general) and sold the city to Ramses II.


Question 1:
Is it "abusive" to sell a city to a friendly civ (Ramses) when that city is about to fall to an aggressor (Montezuma)?
The philosophy is that it is better to get a few coins than losing it, plus the newly created territory serves as a buffer state against the invador.

Question 2:
When I sold the city, Monte did not have a passage agreement with Ramses. But his troops where around the city. Where they "teleported" outside of Ramses territory?
 
How can others enjoy the broken trade/RA/relationsystem?
One huge leak in my game was to under-use it. In the two last games and this one, I learnt to sell luxuries (instead of exchanging), sell resources, sell passage agreements, get loans, initiate RA myself, etc.. and suddenly Emperor level gets more.. manageable.
But I'm a bit bored of going in and out of the diplo screen every few turn.

If you replay the map, you will do better, and you will learn.
Good idea, I think I'll do that. I got lucky first time around with the goodiehuts and Eldorado, so I can't abuse my knowledge of the map that much, and will instead concentrate on avoiding mistakes.
 
Question 1:
Is it "abusive" to sell a city to a friendly civ (Ramses) when that city is about to fall to an aggressor (Montezuma)?
The philosophy is that it is better to get a few coins than losing it, plus the newly created territory serves as a buffer state against the invador.

Question 2:
When I sold the city, Monte did not have a passage agreement with Ramses. But his troops where around the city. Where they "teleported" outside of Ramses territory?

A1:

No it's not abusive. I do it all the time. The other Civ gets the city, and as long as they aren't already at war with the attacking civ, they will get to use it for some time. You might also get nothing for it... luck of the draw there.

A2:

Units get pushed to the borders that are closest to their positions. Mostly this means back to friendly territory rather than forward to enemy territory. They will not be pushed into water, so you can get a big teleport if there's water right behind them. Generally they'll go to the nearest friendly border or open space that isn't water.
 
egypt didnt like me from the turn I meet it.

-the system of RA agreements is imprementet badly and not fun - having to "plan" 30 turns ahead is just not intuitve - good games give you outcome of "investions" faster, not after 1 hour of more playing
- diplomacy systems suckz, Monty declaring war when superfriendly to me; egypt warrning world from me after like 3 turns I met it and no deals at all with it ... just not well designed - there should be ways to improve relations or stop civs declaring war (like in old civs they d ask for money before declaring - why isnt this feature there yet?)
- having to check trade deal options every turn or so is not fun ..

How can others enjoy the broken trade/RA/relationsystem?

Exactly the same about egypt.

-Agree. I played really fast, not wanted to check everything.

-Does that mean everyone will have an hostile egypt in his game? And wars from Monty? Sounds weird.

-I skipped some opportunities...but i had to deal with some broken AIs.
 
So I decided to give it another go (or two) to see if I could figure out where I went wrong. .

Games 2 & 3 started off well enough until I saw the Oracle built by a far-away land. I've never been able to win a CV without it, so time to reload.

Game 4 was much more promising, with SH, NC and the Oracle built lickety-split. Monty declared war early and never stopped, but the AI is dumb, haha and I was able to keep him at bay for what seemed like forever.

Of course I was falling well behind in tech as time went on despite all the RAs that my friends in the world handed out. Still, I was cranking out the policies and saw that Egypt was at war a great deal leading to hope there,

But then finally Monty got his act together and suddenly a carpet of infantry and artillery arrived, backed up by much more infantry and artillery. My small army was swept aside and I died, the end.

So what did I learn from all this? The AI is stupid, but eventually it will crush you with its Meth-head strength. "Tall" civilizations still can't compete in the tech race. And the GOTM is a waste of my time.
 
The AI is stupid, but eventually it will crush you with its Meth-head strength.

True.

"Tall" civilizations still can't compete in the tech race.

False.

Most science comes from building bonuses, which in turn are based on population. While a tall civilization will fall behind in total population, the citizens which you do have are much more likely to reside in established cities with full science buildings.

To lay the groundwork, make sure your capital gets huge quickly. Go with landed elite, a granary, a water wheel, and workers to build farms as quickly as possible. (I often steal them from neighboring city-states.) Beeline civil service as soon as you've got the required techs for your luxaries. Use your money on maritime city-states for the powerful food bonus they offer your capital. Once your city is supremely fat (perhaps 14-16 population) the research will start flowing in from the library/nc bonuses that all of these citizens are receiving. Once you get a university your science rate will simply blow the roof off.

In the late game you will start falling behind if you haven't expanded or puppeted much. This is where you start carefully controlling your research agreements, great scientists (which you've saved for the later techs, btw), oxford, and get scholasticism for bonuses from all those city-states you bought off earlier.

Using these methods, I was able to stay ahead in science the entire time with only my starting city. I'm pretty sure I only finished one RA as well, since the AI kept wardec'ing me halfway through... ;( You can see it in my screenshot too. The other civs had become 500 pound gorillas, but I was running circles around them in tech, which meant they couldn't get past my handful of advanced units when they tried attacking. :)
 
First off, I found this and thought I'd give it a go, and I had so much fun playing this map, that I decided to finally register an account after lurking around for quite a few months, to upload and take part. Probably the most exciting game I have had in civ5 so far, was sure I'd lost about five times, ready to throw in the towel, but continued at it. Played the entire 12h game in one session, with short breaks for more coffee. :)
Spoiler :

I decided on establishing my capital between the mountain and river, for early access to some 2/2/1 river mountain tiles with farm. Explored in a circle around my capital, first south then westwards and up along the coast before heading down on the east side and locating the Aztecs. This netted me Animal Husbandry and a Spearman upgrade from ruins, and a map of the ocean SW, located the four CS and El Dorado for the cash price too.
Managed to build SH, NC and NE before starting off on Angkor Wat. Placed a second city beside El Dorado and fur, the third beside the whales. The Aztecs started a war I was really unprepared for breaking an RA a few turns before completion, throwing my CS-slingshot off. This war lasted for ~240 turns, and cost me a lot of turns in unit production and researching military techs to keep up. Managed to take 4 Aztec cities, but two were recaptured when they got Artillery, but then they lost their capital to Greece and asked for an equal peace treaty, which I was fast to sign. Only war I was in the entire game.
Was lagging behind until modern era in tech, but came out 3rd in the tech race. A lot because of CS and RA.
Persia seemed hellbent on a domination victory and was really easy to sway into wars with other civs, which I used to keep Egypt and Greece in check. I spent a lot on inciting wars which I think is what allowed me this fairly late cultural win.
Greece was as usual going for a diplo win, where the rest of my gold went after the UN was built to keep the game alive in my favour, had to buy a work boat to go exploring for more CSes to befriend, had to pay 3k gold for some of them to loose allegiance to Greece. But by this time I was swimming in gold, 250gpt(loooong Golden age) and getting a lot of extras from trade constantly.
Egypt was going strong for a culture win, I had 15sp's to go when he closed his 20th, but seems to have captured a few to many cities towards the end and I managed to finish my 25th by the time he was on his 22nd. I did manage to get the opera house, and built solar plants in my capital together with a hydro dam. 8 turns for the Utopia Project to finish.

Lots of times I really wanted to rip my hair out thinking all was lost, just shows what a bit of stubbornness can achieve. I will be returning for the next game. No reloading was very exhilarating, especially after I'd done mistakes that cost me turns and gold, or even worse, units.

I have a picture of my entire empire and one of demographics, am I allowed to post them? (Seeing as I don't want to spoil things like resource locations for players who have not played yet)

Edit: Added the two pictures here.
Spoiler :

 
So what did I learn from all this? The AI is stupid, but eventually it will crush you with its Meth-head strength. "Tall" civilizations still can't compete in the tech race. And the GOTM is a waste of my time.

I tried the last GOTM four times before I beat it, and I didn't win this one the first time either. I think you are onto something in the sense that you have to be extremely vigilant with Monty around. Possibly you could improve your game by finding the other civs a little earlier (more RAs), or you could beat and puppet Monty early. This is a hard map tho, b/c even if you puppet Monty, you still have Alex to contend with. I may try to replay the game myself to see if I can beat it...
 
:wavey: Welcome to CivFanatics and GoTM.

I have a picture of my entire empire and one of demographics, am I allowed to post them? (Seeing as I don't want to spoil things like resource locations for players who have not played yet)
Yes, you may post them. I would be interested to see them.

The format the game saves the screen shot in cannot be uploaded to the forum through the attachment function. You need to convert it and most of us use IrFanview to do so. The screen shot needs to be .jpg or .png format, iirc. When you hit the "Manage Attachments" button, it will tell you which formats are allowed.
 
:wavey: Welcome to CivFanatics and GoTM.


Yes, you may post them. I would be interested to see them.

The format the game saves the screen shot in cannot be uploaded to the forum through the attachment function. You need to convert it and most of us use IrFanview to do so. The screen shot needs to be .jpg or .png format, iirc. When you hit the "Manage Attachments" button, it will tell you which formats are allowed.

Thanks!
I put em on Imageshack, most forums rather keep em offsite, I'm guessing that's true here too. I attached them to the previous post, so there along with the description too. :)
 
Thanks!
I put em on Imageshack, most forums rather keep em offsite, I'm guessing that's true here too. I attached them to the previous post, so there along with the description too. :)
:yup: It is good to put them on Imageshack and link them over to here. :goodjob:
 
I wanted to try one more time on this map. I was going for cultural victory, but the diplomatic victory happened faster and I didn't want to prevent it by doing something stupid. I needed one more social policy and then I would be onto Utopia. No other Civ had nukes or spaceship parts or more than one SP branch finished, so I would have finished around turn 328.

Spoiler :
I replayed from a point in 550AD when I was just on the verge of killing Monte, and I was also about to build two additional cities, for a total of three. This time, I never built a second city, and I was also wary of the threat of Alex.


One city definitely gets culture faster, but I still was not all that fast. 328 seems terribly slow. I went for swords first so I could kill you know who. I went for astronomy next so I could discover the world. I had no coastal city so I had to send a camel archer off exploring. Nevertheless, I found everybody quite early around 1100-1300ad. I allied CS very early. I ran RAs and sold Luxuries like crazy, but I just wasn't all that fast. I wonder what I could have done to be faster. I suppose early on, I should have gone for Stonehenge or the Oracle. I played it safe for NC and growth buildings and didn't build any cultural wonders until Sistine Chapel and Christo Redentor. Maybe that's why I couldn't finish sub 300.

Any other suggestions as to how I could have been faster?
 
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