Nobles' Club LXXIV: Isabella of Spain

dalamb

Deity
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May 9, 2006
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The Nobles' Club series started out as a way for Noble-level (and below) players to improve their game. Most of the original participants now play at much higher levels, so this has become a way for advanced players to help others learn to play better. You can play your own game at any level and with any mod, but it would be nice to comment on the games of other players and give them advice.

Our next leader is Isabella of Spain, whom we last played in NC XLVI. The Spanish start with Fishing and Mysticism.
  • Traits: Isabella is Expansive and Spiritual. EXP means faster granaries and harbours, faster worker production (+25%:hammers:), and +2:health: in each city. SPI means no anarchy when switching civics or religions, which makes it easier to yield to AI demands (which you can reverse 5 turns later if you wish). It also makes temples cheaper, which can help with cultural victories where you want a lot of them in each city to boost base :culture:.
  • The UB: The Citadel, a Castle that gives +5XP to siege units built in the city. This can give a big boost to medieval-age warfare, and in the modern era might cause you to think hard about how soon to go for Economics (which obsoletes the bonus).

  • The UU: The Conquistador, a Cuirassier with +50% versus melee units, and which gets defensive bonuses. In the Gunpowder era the bonus against melee might not be all that valuable, except against a technologically backward AI like Montezuma. Beelining Military Tradition might become attractive.
And the start:

Spoiler map details :
Terra. Like Earth2, which apparently was derived from it, there is an "old world" where all the civilizations start, and an unoccupied "new world". Many people treat this like Pangaea: conquering or dominating the old world and ignoring the new. You can almost do that on this map, likely with about the same difficulty you'd have on any Pangaea, but the edits might make exploring the new world a little more attractive if you're not going for early conquest.
Spoiler edits :
I swapped our original inland start with what looked to me like the best of the seafood starts. Late-game resources exist only in the new world (coal, oil, uranium, and aluminum); in the old world I replaced them with pre-modern resources. I added a minor nation ("Mesoamericans") in the new world. Minor nations are at war with everyone and don't tech as fast as normal ones, so they should give you a little more trouble than regular barbarians but not as much as a full-blown AI civ would do.
Finally, a cut and paste of our standard doctrine:

There are no hard and fast rules here: fun and learning are our primary goals, but we do suggest that you update your progress at various points in the game, using the Spoiler feature of the boards. You can post as often as you like; here's one suggestion:
  • 4000 BC (starting thoughts, no spoiler required for that discussion)
  • 1000 BC or so (how you decided to progress up the early tech/build paths, which AIs you have met, where you're thinking of putting cities, etc)
  • 500 AD or so (after establishing some cities and a possible plan of action)
  • 1200 AD or so (mid-game, Lib race, wars or peace, or whichever happened or didn't, met other
  • continent if applicable, etc)
  • 1600 AD (or when you have decided on a course of action and a specific victory condition)
  • End of game (Victory!!! or defeat, no shame in losing, especially if you tried a higher level. Learning is what we focus on, not fastest win or biggest empire)
This is just a guideline. If you're trying to improve your game, then posting more frequent updates, in as much detail as you can manage, is the best way to get suggestions from other players. If you come to what seems like a major decision and you want some advice, post an update, regardless of what game-year it is.

We also welcome players to ask for specific game advice, as we have a number or stronger players who lurk and help out with solid tips, and of course, we help each other. Replies to specific questions should also be in spoilers, with a simple "@" in front of the person the answer is directed towards.

Special Thanks go to Bleys and TMIT, who really made this series a great one, r_rolo1, mapmaker extraordinaire, for his maps for most of the series, and all of you for playing.

The WB-saves are attached (zipped; they are bigger than standard saves). To play, simply download and unzip it into your BTS/Saves/WorldBuilder folder. Start the game, and load your favorite MOD (if you use one, if not, check out the BUG MOD), select "Play Scenario", and look for "NC 74 Isabella Noble" (or Monarch, etc., for higher levels)
Spoiler what's up with specific difficulties :
In each scenario file you can select your level of difficulty, but that doesn't give the AI the right bonus techs by itself. Use the Noble save for all levels at and below Noble. The Monarch save gives all the AI Archery. Emperor adds Hunting; Immortal adds Agriculture; Deity adds The Wheel
You can play with your favorite MOD at the Level and Speed of your choice. From Quick-Warlord to Marathon-Deity, all are welcome! We stuck with the name "Nobles Club" because it has a cool ring to it.

Note: The standard saves have no huts and have events turned off. If you want tribal villages and random events, choose the saves with "Huts" in their names. If you want huts but no events, select the Huts saves and use Custom Scenario to turn on the option that suppresses events.

For players on Monarch or above, you should add archery as a tech for the barbarians (if you don't, the AI will capture their cities very early). This cannot be done in the WB save file and must be done in Worldbuilder as follows:
Spoiler how to add techs to the barbarians :

  1. Zoom in all the way so you can't see the rest of the map.
  2. Use the CTRL-W key (or the menu) to enter the worldbuilder. Avoid looking at the mini-map in the lower right corner.
  3. By default you're in "player" mode (look in the box in the upper right; the icon that looks like a person should be selected). You'll get a drop down menu labeled with your leader's name. Barbarians are at the bottom, so cover the rest of the list with your hand if you don't want to see who else is on the map. Select "Barbarians".
  4. Select the "Technologies" tab in the box on the left.
  5. Find Archery (the arrow head icon; 8th row, 3rd column from the right) and click it.
  6. Exit the worldbuilder.
  7. Zoom out again after the map fades, and start playing.
 

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Signing in. Izzy is one of my favourites to play as. EXP shines in the early goings and is still relatively useful, when health would have been a problem otherwise, whereas SPI allows for a very versatile gameplay.

Citadel has its uses but honestly I usually can't bother to build zillions of Trebs pre-Economics and then upgrade them all into Cannons. Conquistadors on the other hand are really nice. Cuirassiers are stellar on their own and a bonus vs pikes just makes them unstoppable.

Stone probably means Pyramids, but we shall see. Otherwise, it looks like a SiP to me.

Last thing...I'm gonna try this one on Immortal, so you will most likely see me lose :D
 
Don't forget that stone also means cheap walls and citadels. I agree about SIP. That's quite a start.
What bonuses do I need to give the AI for prince level?
 
I see no advantageous reason to not SiP.

The bananas suggest jungle nearby I think, so warrior 1SW or SE?
 
I don't really like this mapscript, because

Spoiler :


you either go with early domination ignoring something like 40% of landmass, making it basically pangea

or you need to wait until Communism to do something if you want to spare the AI's for later fun.



Nice start here. if a little bit tricky ;-)
I think it would be correct here with starting on WB building it on 2f1h tile and asap switching to the stone.
Techs should really be mining->bw. Tough to judge if worker size 2 or size 1 with the clams... with SPI it almost hears size 2 worker and whip, chop 2nd WB.

The pigs and stone could be mined early game, that's a plus, but this start screams mids really.

edit:

going with the variant (castles) can be early Great Wall for Spy points and Great Spy
 
Nice i Just finished my UR I game, now to play the NC game on Emperor :p

SiP, Workboat first with Mining-BW i feel.

Prince gives the AI a 5% research bonus, iirc thats the only change compared to Noble.
 
@vranasm:
What about mining->masonry->BW-->AH? It's almost criminal to not get SH on this kind of start.
 
@vranasm:
What about mining->masonry->BW-->AH? It's almost criminal to not get SH on this kind of start.

not going BW will slow you down. You can't whip the worker and chop the 2nd WB.

I don't consider SH great wonder... especially when you're not charismatic (which is probably the only situation where i would consider building SH) and anyway I don't understand the masonry?
you won't have any time if you go for SH to consider stone for SH on higher levels.

On Noble/Prince you will get it anyway if you want and don't need the stone too :).
 
Spoiler :
MinorCiv ftw, going to plan my first turns out but guessing i need to watch out for the Super Barbs too :)


Or we just start at war with a civ, as we can talk to them lol :p


Plan for Emperor/Normal

T0 Settle in place, Build Workboat (2/30), Research Mining (10/78), Food (2/22). Work Hill Pigs.
T1 WB (4/30), Mining (20/78), Food (4/22)
T2 WB (6/30), Mining (30/78), Food (6/22)
T3 WB (8/30), Mining (40/78), Food (8/22)
T4 WB (10/30), Mining (50/78), Food (10/22)
T5 WB (12/30), Mining (60/78), Food (12/22)
T6 WB (14/30), Mining (70/78), Food (14/22)
T7 WB (16/30), Mining (80/78), Food (16/22)
T8 WB (18/30), Research Bronzeworking (14/178), Food (18/22)
T9 WB (20/30), Research Bronzeworking (26/178), Food (20/22)
T10 WB (22/30), Research Bronzeworking (38/178), Food (22/22)
T11 WB (27/30), Research Bronzeworking (50/178), Food (0/24), Work 2 tiles 1f2h
T12 WB (32/30), Research Bronzeworking (62/178), Food (0/24)
T13 Worker (9/60), Research Bronzeworking (76/178), Food (0/24), Improve Clams, Work Clams + Stone
T14 Worker (16/60), Research Bronzeworking (90/178), Food (0/24)
T15 Worker (23/60), Research Bronzeworking (104/178), Food (0/24)
T16 Worker (30/60), Research Bronzeworking (118/178), Food (0/24)
T17 Worker (37/60), Research Bronzeworking (132/178), Food (0/24)
T18 Worker (44/60), Research Bronzeworking (146/178), Food (0/24)
T19 Worker (51/60), Research Bronzeworking (160/178), Food (0/24)
T20 Worker (58/60), Research Bronzeworking (174/178), Food (0/24)
T21 Worker (65/60), Research Bronzeworking (188/178), Food (0/24)

ignore
Now should I Whip and overflow into a Workboat, or do a chop on a riverside tile to get the 2nd Workboat out. If i whip i can mine the pigs + stone then start chopping the riverside for cottages/mines. If Cottages, The Wheel - Pottery seems good, but only spawn busting then for Barb defense, could go Hunting - Archery but it seems a waste :), might wait and see what copper if any springs up for a 2nd city site. Or go The Wheel - Masonry for The Great Wall .
/ignore

:)

*edit*
Forgot Expansive Hammer bonus so editing it so its right
 
Emperor Normal to 1 AD

Spoiler :


ok first WTF is this the American empire??? Interesting twist :)

Start went wb->worker size 2->wb, actually that worker wasnt whipped since it arrived directly at BW in.

We start a bit boxed in :) soo why not take Worker from Churchill when he makes so nice offer?

That means I have 2 workers once I have BW home!

After BW the task is "simple" Masonry->TW for connecting stone, pottery->writing

Pigs were mined! Stone was quarried right away and connected.

With 1 chop and OF settler whip I managed to get TGW, started on Mids.

2nd city was at copper site. Due to slowing down of Churchill I managed to get a lot of the land in the middle.

Shaka luckilly choosed to attack Pacal instead of us (good boy!)

First great person was Great Engineer, that was clear indication for Aesth->Lit line and building GLib in capital. 2nd one was Great scientist for Academy in capital.

Everything seems to be ok ;-).

Some screens
Spoiler :









Still 2 places to settle... one in western corner and the 2nd one in the jungle corner.

 
I started with the intention of settling in place and trying for SH and the Oracle, and was unsure if after that I'd go for early combat or continue with wonders (mainly the 'mids, but perhaps HG too).
Spoiler :
I took the risk of waiting to connect stone before going for Stonehenge and lucked out. I built 3 workboats and was going to switch to a worker when I happened upon Churchill's right at his border; I couldn't resist stealing it (and making peace again as soon as he was willing to talk). Then he let me do it to him again in 2200 BC:

The first worker had been on the marble to the west if I recall correctly.

I started building axemen for a possible attack on Churchill, whose loss of two (!) workers probably put him far behind. In 1025 BC I oracle'd Metal Casting. Now I'm waffling about whether to continue planning to attack Churchill or switch to forge/pyramids/HG in my 2nd city. Seems to me 1000 BC is rather late for an axe attack on a PRO leader without supporting catapults. Any opinions?

I stopped here because I wanted to report that I found it is actually possible for somebody to make peace with a minor civilization. Imagine my shock at hearing the peace horns blow and see "Pacal has made peace with Ahuitzotl".

That's what I get for leaving events on. Looks like Great Mediator overrides minor nation (supposedly)-always-war, and can make peace between civilizations who haven't actually met each other in the usual way (minor nations are technically in contact with all others, and at war with them -- take a look at the WB save with a text editor).
 
My fav. leader beside Hatsepsut, the only thing that's really bad about Izzy are her starting techs - they're simply awful, imho the worst possible starting techs.

The UU: The Conquistador, a Cuirassier with +50% versus melee units, and which gets defensive bonuses. In the Gunpowder era the bonus against melee might not be all that valuable, except against a technologically backward AI like Montezuma. Beelining Military Tradition might become attractive.

Wat... Pikes are a serious threat for Cuirassiers, you can stomp LBs and everything easily, but pikes remain strong. Especially with their defensive bonus they're pretty solid in my eyes actually. With a good Lib date (for Nationalism or MT), Conquistadors are AWESOME. One of my favourite UUs actually. The only thing that threatens them in their timeframe is ... nothing. Except Cuirassiers, ofc.
And the UB is great aswell. Baracks + UB + Theo = 3 promo cannons, no matter how hard the defense, those cannons will tear every defender apart.

Combined with SPI for fast civic switches, Izzy is every post-lib warmongers wet dream. The only problem on IMM/Deity is to get a decent lib date, cause with her starting techs you'll get set back ALOT unfortunately. Beside her starting techs, awesome leader.
 
Going to try to use this series to really bump myself up to Prince so wish me luck. I'll be packing tomorrow and on the road Monday so it'll probably be awhile before I can ask for help but I'm already humming whip it good just seeing that start.

Update:

5BC and I think/hope things are going well. Only 5 cities with a 6th on the way but one of the AI's is getting ready to donate their cities to the cause. On the bright side I'm not way behind in tech and I've got 2 production cities cranking out my argument for why the AI's cities should be my cities. Thoughts so far, the whip has served me quite well but I'm not managing my specialists well enough.

Your thoughts and advice? By the way, ignore the date on the save, I just constantly overwrite older ones.
 
Warning for anyone inexperienced with minor nations: watch your espionage! You start out somehow knowing this one, which might help your science (though it helps everybody's, so not much of a help), but it sinks your early espionage into a worthless sinkhole. :mad: Nothing you can do about it until you meet someone. Just remember to adjust it once you've met someone for real.
 
to 1360AD, Prince/Normal/No huts or events

Spoiler :

Went straight for bronze working and then masonry, hooked up the stone and chopped a little


Sweet capital, but I'm cramped by 2 PRO civs and the copper is somewhat inconvenient. I'll just stake out some land and prevent them from grabbing that much.

Expanded two spots to the south, one against Mao and the other against Churchill to stop them from expanding against me. They're good production sites. My stonehenge is going to push my borders against them.



Blew some hammers on the mids. I stick a city in the middle of the jungle up north just to take up space from the others.



Only 5 cities by 300 BC, not worried, since I have some places to stuff cities on the west coast. I messed up on Toledo, should have placed it where it could reach the iron.



Funny enough, I traded extra stone for Churchill's Marble. Yay. Got some misc wonders, including burning a GE on the Sistine Chapel so I can annoy people with culture.

Mao was massing a large army, so I decided to bring up a military buildup of my own. Diffrent religions didn't help much, but Churchill decides to war with him some, so I could relax. Won lib around 1200, and getting Gunpowder/mil tradition for the conquistadors. The war's halted Mao a little, so he should be easy prey. 3 cities producing them should be more than enough. If not, Rifling isn't out of the question, and I'll focus espionage on Mao.

My biggest fear is the AP Buddhist palace on the other side of the world. I have no buddhism at all, and if it spreads to me, they might be able to AP cheese since Buddhism isn't very popular. Keeping that, I might just have to burn the damned thing down.


 

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I've been following the nobles club for a bit I'm going to start playing it on this map. I play on noble and would appreciate it people could give me advice when I post updates. =)

EDIT: btw I play with huts on, because I see no reason not to.
 
I have little time ATM and didn't even finish Pericles, so I won't be playing this one. But I'm still here to help with gameplay insofar as a Prince player can :)
 
2004 diplomation

Spoiler :

War with Mao was pretty disastrous. Conquistadors easily overran Mao's border cities, but he fielded a ton of pikemen and also vassaled shaka who sent units at me. I had underestimated his army size because most of it was on Shaka's side when he vassaled him.

The defense bonus proved useful, as the conquistadors were forced to hold out in the cities, and while spies could remove some defenses, Mao's inner cities proved ridiculously hard to attack, I was getting 30% odds even with rifles.

For this reason the campaign was called off, and 200 years was wasted. Rifles and cannons took Bejing and I called it a rest.

In the meantime, I signed a defense pact with Churchill and also Buddhism made it to Spain. Good thing I put off sci meth, as I pumped missionaries like mad and soon became the resident.

Unexpectedly, war resumed between me and Mao as Mao inexplicably declares war on Churchill. This time I have machine guns, rendering any attacks on cities or my stacks utterly useless since he had not even rifling. Mao does not capitulate for reasons known to him, but he finally gives in once infantry start coming in.

With Mao down, I turn my army at Shaka who falls quickly. Pacal is going for culture, which can't be allowed, and Asoka has skyrocketed past me in tech.

Fortunately, Pacal's pretty small and gets taken down fast. Like the others, he takes forever to capitulate until he is forced off the mainland. All these vassals soured the relations with churchill, and so I take on him after I get robotics. Wait, where's the oil? I'm too lazy to go overseas, so mechanized infantry is going to have to do. Churchill quickly gives in, and I offer him techs in exchange for services; pretty soon it's like this war never happened.

I'm surprised nobody's built the UN at 1970. Asoka still has a lot of techs, but nowhere near a space victory. I catch up with the internet, and burn a GE on the UN. Only some 70 votes stand between me and victory, and all I have to do is take a few Khmer cities.

He's no match since I've set most of my cities to military, and he has no answer to mech infantry. He's actually willing to capitulate, but the UN vote was already settled before I accepted his capitulation.



The only obstacle to Spanish domination was the Indians, but a quick look at their military shows that they were no threat at all. Although conquest is a cooler win, I was tired and decided to end it here, sparing the Indians.


 
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