Immortal Minimalism, Chapter III - Augustus Caesar

.: S e t t i n g s

Civ IV BtS 3.19

Immortal/Pangea/SmallMap/StandardSpeed/NoHuts/NoEvents, using the first generated map.
First attempt, no cheats, no reloads, not opening/using the world builder.


.: O v e r v i e w

Augustus Caesar must conquer the world the aggressive way.

• once the first war started, Rome must to be always at war with at least another civilization
• Rome cannot have (never) more than 6 cities (so should wisely choose which ones capture and which ones raze)

Scheduling: none. I'll play a short session whenever I will have some free-time to.

All saves will be posted this time, the initial save is attached below.


.: S e r i e s

Chapter I, Hatshepsut of Egypt science
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=424679

Chapter II, Genghis Khan of Mongolia culture
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=427222

This series doesn't have any educational purpose.
Better player than I am already excellently wrote all the needed guides and articles.

---

Comments?
(quite ugly starting map huh?)

One tile south-east on PH is attractive, at the expense of possibly losing hidden iron within those unforested plains tiles. Hope this case isn't the Plain Cow bug.

At least, we can worker steal.

haha if you move 1E you could get double cow glitch start!

seriously though... to the west looks to be some number of flood plains... I would consider moving settler 1W of lake...

vranasm said:

haha if you move 1E you could get double cow glitch start!

seriously though... to the west looks to be some number of flood plains... I would consider moving settler 1W of lake...

Click to expand...

Trading most forests, some grassy riverside tiles and land to coast tiles for a Plains cow, sure is fair.

Honestly, the limitation of six keeps us from founding a city for sake of it. Can't think like AZ: "Don't care about the present cities, the ones I'm going to capture will make up."

If it was Epic Speed, I would gladly trade two turns for a better BFC, as going one tile south-west, look what's under the fog (wheat, gold?), then, going either the PH or your position.

I was undecided, so I just finished up settling in place.
And got stone. The Pyramids were not planned this game, since I had nothing to build waiting for iron working, I thought about some nice gold failure.
Then I finished them (without even chopping!) few turns before hooking up iron, I even had time to build up barracks before starting training the praetorian army!


Session 1, turn 99, 400BC
(first attempt, no cheats, no reloads)


























































End session.

---

Attacked Zara, conquered 3 cities, 1 captured and 2 razed.
I could capture in the process only 1 worker, melee units are so slow!
(I usually prefer mounted rushes, but wanted to try the praetorian power this time)

Now the enemy capital is left, which bothers culturally the captured city, but it is on a hill and super defended: should I take it, or ask for peace (getting few techs maybe?) and declare on someone else?
Should I keep on training units, or should I build a library in Rome?
Should I still in police state, or switch to representation to raise the happy cap and maybe the science output?

Save attached.


Comments?

Played another 9 turns.
Captured the Ethiopian capital (and recaptured the city I captured earlier).
Got the great engineer from the pyramids, but didn't find a good use till now.
Got the second great general, as above I don't know yet what he is going to do.
Ethiopia is almost eliminated.


Session 2, turn 108, 175BC
(first attempt, no cheats, no reloads)

























---

End session.

Save attached.


Comments?

Last session of the day: destroyed Ethiopia.


Session 3, turn 117, 50AD
(first attempt, no cheats, no reloads)









































---

End session. Save attached.


Who's the next target?

It's amusing that your goal here was total War, because that start would have allowed for basically nothing else. Two fail food sources, but iron, stone, and some hills?

I'm curious to see how this goes, since your ability to tech trade to keep up will be greatly diminished by the negative diplomatic feelings of your opponents.

once the first war started, Rome must to be always at war with at least another civilization

Surely you are now at peace with all AI? Are you proposing to declare this turn? Otherwise why have you got the rule? The rule sounded like you should always be at war with 2 AI. In which case why finish off Zara?

I am sure you can clear up this rule.

Gumbolt said:

once the first war started, Rome must to be always at war with at least another civilization

Surely you are now at peace with all AI? Are you proposing to declare this turn? Otherwise why have you got the rule? The rule sounded like you should always be at war with 2 AI. In which case why finish off Zara?

I am sure you can clear up this rule.

Click to expand...

Always in war with one AI.
I was in war before hitting "enter". I finished up Zara. I must re-declare before hitting "enter" again.
The rule is as simple as that.
Being in peace while playing the turn is ok: I can also make peace, then declare on someone else, then hit "enter"!

The important is being in war every turn when hitting "enter".

The question is: who declare war to next?
The strong blue guy? the annoying Sumerian? or the bearded Babylon leader?

Comments?

didn't check save...but I guess going against sury would be better then against vultures...

The ALWAYS war rule is very tough depending on how you interpret it. The spirit is non-stop all out war but you could met the letter of the rule by leaving a gimped Zara hanging on by a toenail until you're in postion to start the next war. It would take some troops to keep him pinned down though.

Hard to tell who to go after next since I cant tell where the other AI are except sury. I would think Diplowise Sury is the easiest to befriend since you have his religion, and a shared war, and he values Org religion alot. On the flip side Giggles and hammy are both poor early war targets and it is possible they could gang up on you. Does Sury really only have 2 cities? If so he seems the easiest to bump off.

You war pace will have to be rather fast to prevent the at peace AI from resetteling the razed land and becoming a behemoth.

EDIT Opps I didnt realize Zara was dead. Well good, ALL OUT WAR ALL THE TIME!

vranasm said:

didn't check save...but I guess going against sury would be better then against vultures...

Click to expand...

I think stock axes (50% vs praets) are harder than vultures (25% vs praets), even with the higher base strength of vultures.

huerfanista said:

I think stock axes (50% vs praets) are harder than vultures (25% vs praets), even with the higher base strength of vultures.

Click to expand...

They are both 7.5 after bonus', but the Vultures have a higher base, so other bonus' will be greater. For example:

With combat 1

Axeman = 5*1.6 = 8
Vulture = 6*1.35 = 8.1

On defense, where you are likely to get even bigger bonus', those numbers are even more out of whack. Imagine fortified on a hill (+50%)

Axemen = 5*2 = 10
Vulture = 6 * 1.75 = 10.5

Vulture is much stronger

May sound silly advice but attack what you can see. I see Gilga borders near you. You risk a DOW from Hammy if Gilga bribes him.

Attacking any other Ai that is not on your border is futile due to upkeep of units away from your borders.

You need to keep an eye on economy techs. Alphabet, currency and COL. You already have one of those.

The other thing is to keep the Ai away from monarchy/feudalism line so you don't have to fight LB.

Going forward construction is a big tech. What is aesthetics for?? Go for the war techs??? Are you really likely to be trading with the Ai much anyway?

Nice opening. I'd say you're off to an excellent start.

If vassals are allowed I'd say Feudalism has to become an immediate priority... you only get 6 cities, but your vassals could help you fill up the rest of the land so you don't have to keep re-conquering the same territory, plus keep up in tech... and eventually they may even start contributing units to the war effort.

As far as next target goes... I would probably hit Gilgamesh. Vultures are basically equivalent to Axemen against Praets (their big benefit is being tougher against archers and chariots, which doesn't bother you ). He's one of your strongest opponents, he's teching quickly, he's nearby, and he looks silly. I strongly recommend trying to get at least 2 more cities out of that war - last game I was recommending you hold out for a really great 4th city since you only got 4, but seeing the way that game played out convinced me I was wrong to do so, and it's probably better to just get as many reasonably good cities as you can as fast as you can in with a restriction on number of cities. Make sure to either conquer or found a coastal city at some point, in case this Pangaea has some of those dinky little offshore islands to worry about.

Side note 1: I would have laughed quite a bit if you'd ended up with no iron and these restrictions. Fortunately for the continuation of this game, the random number generator didn't hate you that much.

Side note 2: Axemen are stronger attacking against praets; vultures are stronger defending against praets.

On attack, with combat 1 for both units...
Axeman has strength 5 * (1 + 0.1) = 5.5; praet has strength 8 / (1 - 0.1 + 0.5) = 5.71. Ratio is 5.71/5.5 = 1.04 in favor of Praet.
Vulture has strength 6 * (1 + 0.1) = 6.6; praet has strength 8 / (1 - 0.1 + 0.25) = 6.96. Ratio is 6.96/6.6 = 1.05 in favor of Praet.

On defense, with Combat I for both units...
Praet has strength 8 * (1 + 0.1) = 8.8. Axeman has strength 5 * (1 + 0.1 + 0.5) = 8. Ratio is 1.1 in favor of Praet.
Praet has strength 8 * (1 + 0.1) = 8.8. Vulture has strength 6 * (1 + 0.1 + 0.25) = 8.35. Ratio is 1.05 in favor of Praet.

Check out the Combat Explained article - http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=137615 - if you're curious where those formulae came from.

Vultures are stronger on defense + non-melee offense and weaker on melee offense than Axemen, of course Giggles is also Protective make his archers better on defense as well, hence Sury is probably the better target

*edit* coanda was quicker typing, not checked the save so if Giggles is getting strong then yes even thou the war is harder than Sury its probably better to do it now than later

CreeDakota said:

You war pace will have to be rather fast to prevent the at peace AI from resetteling the razed land and becoming a behemoth.

Click to expand...

Yeah, that's what is killing on immortal difficulty.

huerfanista said:

I think stock axes (50% vs praets) are harder than vultures (25% vs praets), even with the higher base strength of vultures.

Click to expand...

Zechnophobe said:

They are both 7.5 after bonus', but the Vultures have a higher base, so other bonus' will be greater.

Click to expand...

coanda said:

Side note 2: Axemen are stronger attacking against praets; vultures are stronger defending against praets.

Click to expand...

Habitus said:

Vultures are stronger on defense + non-melee offense and weaker on melee offense than Axemen, of course Giggles is also Protective make his archers better on defense as well, hence Sury is probably the better target

Click to expand...

Thanks all, appreciated feedback!

Gumbolt said:

You need to keep an eye on economy techs. Alphabet, currency and COL. You already have one of those.

Click to expand...

Yep! Alphabet was in, Currency is halfway now. And nobody else have it.

Going forward construction is a big tech.

Click to expand...

For elephants maybe, for catapults not with praetorians IMO. But trebuchet later yes again, so construction good for engineering.

What is aesthetics for?? Go for the war techs??? Are you really likely to be trading with the Ai much anyway?

Click to expand...

literature for National Hero and Epic, plus Great Library with my great engineer.

coanda said:

Nice opening. I'd say you're off to an excellent start.

Click to expand...

Thanks! But praetorians helped a lot...

As far as next target goes... I would probably hit Gilgamesh. Vultures are basically equivalent to Axemen against Praets (their big benefit is being tougher against archers and chariots, which doesn't bother you ). He's one of your strongest opponents, he's teching quickly, he's nearby, and he looks silly.

Click to expand...

Ah Ah for once we got to the same conclusion. Already 3 cities razed!

Make sure to either conquer or found a coastal city at some point, in case this Pangaea has some of those dinky little offshore islands to worry about.

Click to expand...

Yep! already there!

Side note 1: I would have laughed quite a bit if you'd ended up with no iron and these restrictions. Fortunately for the continuation of this game, the random number generator didn't hate you that much.

Click to expand...

My plan was: if copper/no iron -> Axe rush the closest iron; if horse -> horse rush the closest iron. If none: just give up maybe

Is anyone willing to shadow this game from here?
A bunch of wonders (mids, GL, Oracle, Shrine, NE, HE, Artem..), a good stack of units (CR3 and such in the pack), HE in a 4 settled general (IIRC) city, 1 AI dead, 1 in a bad shape. The other two in war with each other. And I have also workers!

My only problem here is that I suck dealing with many units, so from now on I know I'll screw it up.

But if some of you feel comfortable with bunches of units, I'd like to know the modern era phase against the lasts AIs on the map.

Vassals are fine, but you must avoid winning by domination: conquest is the target!

If someone will shadow it and post about it, thanks in advance! Appreciated!
Save attached.


Session 4, 540AD























































---

End session.

@zechnophobe and coanda:
I'd be more impressed with some odds that are likely to be seen in the game, instead of C1 vs C1. Given that Rome is building 9XP praets, you're much more likely to see C1 axe/vulture (and maybe an occasional C1schock) going against C1shock or C2 praets on defense and CR2/3 praets on offense. Even with C1 vs C1 there hardly seems to be any significant difference between axes and vultures, given the numbers you've shown.

Just a little micro tip: Your first screenshot of Session 3 is an excellent example why sometimes you do want to use "halt city growth". With a population of 5 you could have worked the riverside plain hills instead of the grass hill, netting you a hammer and a commerce (and giving you 1 food surplus). With the setup you had you have to work a more food/less useful stuff tile to feed a slacker (i.e. unhappy citizen). If you find yourself in a situation like that again, it might actually be worth it starve the guy away, but that depends on how quickly you expect to get an extra happiness in the city.

Since I am mentioning micro: if you want optimal production at size 5 you can also consider the following micro-intensive method of getting rid of the surplus food: "work the floodplains 3 turns out of 4 and every fourth turn work the second plains hill as well" (you don't have to switch every 4 turns, you can work the floodplains 30 consecutive turns and then the plains hill 10 consecutive turns, as long as the ration is correct).