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Old Feb 26, 2014, 05:06 PM   #1
Marla_Singer
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Special RAR map of the Americas

Here's a collection of maps of the Americas, built with the idea to take advantage of all the cool features of the Religion and Revolution mod.

The map exists in 2 sizes :
  • Gigantic : 136 x 256 plots
  • Huge : 68 x 128 plots
    The huge map being itself declined in 3 versions varying in randomness


See large version


Some quick facts about the non-random versions:
  • The 30 native civilizations and their cities are accurately located on the map.
  • The 3 Empires benefit from farms and roads, making their territories more attractive for the invader.
  • Some of the Natives attitudes have been edited so that they already have an opinion of their neighbours when the colonist arrives.
  • Ressources have been carefully placed, both to improve historical feel and promote specialization.


From the Klondike Valley waiting for Gold rush to the amazing Salar de Uyuni, I really took good cares of both map details and balance, using statistics and mapping. I've also edited the permafrost graphics to make them look more "snowy" for Greenland.


Great Lakes and Appalachians

Some more screenshots
Spoiler:




Straight of Magellan


Inca Empire


Yukon and Alaska


Mesoamerica


Caribbeans


Discovering New World


Thanks everyone who participated to the creation of this great RAR mod.


Edits in version 2.0:
  • Gigantic map added.

Spoiler:
Edits in version 1.1:
  • The map has been upgraded from 19 Natives and 6 Europeans to 30 Natives and 8 Europeans.
  • Map now exists in 3 versions, according to the level of randomness wanted by the player.
  • Mountains have been reshaped to make appear valleys and take better advantage of the movement restriction feature.
  • Amazonia has been slightly rethought to bring more savannah and less marsh.
  • Color tons of few civs have been slightly modified to minimize conflicts.
  • Errors corrected: natives now start with units, all their cities are sustainable, whales and high sea fishes relocated in the non-random version


How to install:
  • Extract the zip folder in the following folder on your computer:
    My Games\Sid Meier's Civilization IV Colonization\Saves\WorldBuilder
  • Start the game with Religion and Revolution and play a scenario
Note: the map requires Religion and Revolution mod.
Attached Files
File Type: zip americas-for-rar-v2-0.zip (256.3 KB, 126 views)
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Old Feb 26, 2014, 05:51 PM   #2
Marla_Singer
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As stated in my initial post, there are squares of land without snow that appears in the original RAR permafrost. I've just edited a bit the dds frost textures to make them look more snowy.



If you're interested, you can download the textures. They must replace those already installed in your "Religion_and_Revolution/Assets/Art/terrain/textures" folder.
Attached Files
File Type: zip snowy-frost.zip (294.9 KB, 27 views)
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Old Feb 27, 2014, 12:47 AM   #3
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Wow, that sounds very nice!

Thank you for your work!

Some questions:

What is the size of the map? (personally I'm interested in a map with the size "gigantic"...)
There are 8 playable nations, why are only 6 placed on the map?
You have only placed 19 native nations? We already have implemented 30 native nations ...

Maybe you use an old version of the mod? The current version is 1.9.
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Old Feb 27, 2014, 05:43 AM   #4
Marla_Singer
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Schmiddie View Post
Some questions:

What is the size of the map? (personally I'm interested in a map with the size "gigantic"...)
The map is 68x128 tiles, which is slightly bigger than TAC America 1.05. That's the biggest I could get without the overview map turning black.

I could think about making a bigger version though, I would only need your help to fill it up with features (drawing coastlines is actually the quickest and funniest part).

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Originally Posted by Schmiddie View Post
There are 8 playable nations, why are only 6 placed on the map?
Adding playable nations is easy. So I could add them for you if you want.

Russians haven't been added both for historical and gameplay reasons. They arrrived quite late in Alaska and if used, they would immediately benefit from Klondike's gold which is just beside their starting location. Gold being so valuable, I designed the map so that it would be difficult to reach and requires specific efforts from the player.

As for Swedes, adding them would require to push England in Florida and France in Newfoundland... which would result in Sweden getting the best location. I've already put the Netherlands in the Caribbeans for that reason, and it's especially hard to make the AI starts in islands. As it is, my major worry is that Dutch AI has only 50% of chance to settle in the Caribbeans, the other 50% being that it would settle in Mayan territory!

But anyway, tell me where you want them to be located and I'll do it for you.


Quote:
You have only placed 19 native nations? We already have implemented 30 native nations ...
Some native nations, for instance the Zapotecs simply didn't have enough room to be included. They were historically located on a really tiny territory neighbouring the already tiny territory of the Mixtecs (Mixtecs only have one city in the map).

Other natives which haven't been dismissed in the map are some from Western North America. I thought it would be more interesting to get stronger natives in that region meant to be settled later in the game. I could include the black feet though but Northern Canada was so sparsely populated that I wondered if that was really interesting.

The last natives which haven't been included are from Western Amazonia. Just like Mixtecs, I didn't have enough room and I didn't want to end with too many "1 city civ".


The map has been thought the way it is mostly for gameplay and being connected with real History. That's why I mostly considered I could pick the most suited available contents and I didn't see the need to use them all. But this can always be changed.


Quote:
Maybe you use an old version of the mod? The current version is 1.9.
No I do use the last version.

I can try creating a version maxing out the contents (using all civs) for you if you want.
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Old Feb 27, 2014, 05:45 AM   #5
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As a matter of fact, I have an extra question.

Does anyone know how to make several leaders available for a single civ in a scenario map?

As it is now, I'm forced to pick a specific leader for each European civ, I cannot let the player choose at the begining of the game. Is there a way to set "random leader" or anything?
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Old Feb 27, 2014, 09:23 AM   #6
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Wow, that is an awesome piece of work.

One question though. Why is it that the Spaniards begins near the gulf of Mexico, when historically then first came to the island of Isabella (current Haití-Dominican Republic), and the first city that they establish in the continent was Santa María la Antigua del Darien in Panama?
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Old Feb 27, 2014, 12:31 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by Pallando View Post
Wow, that is an awesome piece of work.

One question though. Why is it that the Spaniards begins near the gulf of Mexico, when historically then first came to the island of Isabella (current Haití-Dominican Republic), and the first city that they establish in the continent was Santa María la Antigua del Darien in Panama?
New Spain was Mexico, with as capital city Mexico City, the most populous city of the Precolumbian era. That's where it really all started for Spain in the Americas.

Furthermore, the AI is programmed to land on the continent. So if you want to make start Spain in the Caribbeans, it will end up either in the Guyanas or Southern US, which would be even less correct. My pick was that the best way to get a fun gameplay and respect the importance of Spain regarding colonial era was to make them land in a rich Mexico.

----------------------------------------
Talking about this, I really believe the 3 Precolumbian Empires aren't treated with due respect in the game. And RAR unfortunately offers no solution up until now. Conqueering their cities shouldn't lead to mere destruction of the site, as in the game. That's just not what happened at all.

If Spain developped so fast in the Americas, it's because they took control of already existing structures in Mexico and Peru. They didn't simply raze everything and build their settlements instead. Remember that the population of the area, even today, remains largely on Amerindian origins.

I think the cities of the 3 Empires should be conqueered, not razed. Maybe a solution would be that, even if they are considered by the AI as native civilizations, their cities on the other side would be considered as European colonies, instead of mere tribal villages?

Especially when talking about Tenochtitlan, a city of 200,000 inhabitants, more populous than Madrid or London at the time. A city laid on an advanced street-canal network similar to Venice. In conqueering Tenochtitlan, Spain should get more than just few coins and one native slave. They should establish a city with something like 5 free converted natives. I'm not sure that's the solution, it's only a proposal, but I'm convinced the 3 Empires deserve a special treatment. Otherwise, the specificity of the Spanish colonization of the Americas is just bluntly ignored from the game.

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Old Feb 27, 2014, 01:20 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marla_Singer View Post
Talking about this, I really believe the 3 Precolumbian Empires aren't treated with due respect in the game. And RAR unfortunately offers no solution up until now. Conqueering their cities shouldn't lead to mere destruction of the site, as in the game. That's just not what happened at all.

If Spain developped so fast in the Americas, it's because they took control of already existing structures in Mexico and Peru. They didn't simply raze everything and build their settlements instead. Remember that the population of the area, even today, remains largely on Amerindian origins.
You are right, but from a coding perspective it is easier to make all natives behave identically. It is even easier to let the behavior stay vanilla.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marla_Singer View Post
I think the cities of the 3 Empires should be conqueered, not razed. Maybe a solution would be that, even if they are considered by the AI as native civilizations, their cities on the other side would be considered as European colonies, instead of mere tribal villages?

Especially when talking about Tenochtitlan, a city of 200,000 inhabitants, more populous than Madrid or London at the time. A city laid on an advanced street-canal network similar to Venice. In conqueering Tenochtitlan, Spain should get more than just few coins and one native slave. They should establish a city with something like 5 free converted natives. I'm not sure that's the solution, it's only a proposal, but I'm convinced the 3 Empires deserve a special treatment. Otherwise, the specificity of the Spanish colonization of the Americas is just bluntly ignored from the game.
What would really make a difference isn't getting more native slaves (though that would make a difference). The difference is buildings. If you found a colony it has only basic buildings. However if you conquer a native city and convert it into a European colony and keep some/all the buildings, then the startup will be a whole lot easier. However I'm uncertain of how much natives actually build buildings.

One really bad sideeffect from conquering native settlements is min plot distance between cities. Imagine you found a colony, then conquer a nearly native settlement. This would violate the minimum distance. Even more disturbing is the concept of having the natives plan where to build. Imagine land with a gold mine. Say the tribe couldn't care less for digging gold and places settlements near food supplies instead. You as a European want the gold at any cost, but after conquering the native settlements you can no longer build a colony close enough to the gold to actually mine it.

While it might be historical incorrect to just raze all native settlements, it might be a good idea from a gameplay and coding point of view. The last is likely the most important as I imagine around 0 programmers willing to code this. Or rather than willing I would say it's more like a question of available time to do something like that.
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Old Feb 27, 2014, 01:56 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by Nightinggale View Post
You are right, but from a coding perspective it is easier to make all natives behave identically. It is even easier to let the behavior stay vanilla.


What would really make a difference isn't getting more native slaves (though that would make a difference). The difference is buildings. If you found a colony it has only basic buildings. However if you conquer a native city and convert it into a European colony and keep some/all the buildings, then the startup will be a whole lot easier. However I'm uncertain of how much natives actually build buildings.
Well, Aztec and Inca cities were very advanced. We could allow them to build shops, marketplaces and warehouse. The big issue here is that native AI is meant to produce only food and people. Maybe we could keep it this way and just give them buildings at the beginning of the game as it's already done with the sacrifice altars and disallowing them to build further improvements during the game (no lumber mill).

One other issue is how would it be handled with native unique buildings such as altars and walls?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightinggale View Post
One really bad sideeffect from conquering native settlements is min plot distance between cities. Imagine you found a colony, then conquer a nearly native settlement. This would violate the minimum distance.
Unless if those cities are considered by the game as colonies... then the min plot distance will be the one of colonies.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightinggale View Post
Even more disturbing is the concept of having the natives plan where to build. Imagine land with a gold mine. Say the tribe couldn't care less for digging gold and places settlements near food supplies instead. You as a European want the gold at any cost, but after conquering the native settlements you can no longer build a colony close enough to the gold to actually mine it.
Well then, destroying the city could be an option. Isn't that possible when we conqueer foreign colonies?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightinggale View Post
While it might be historical incorrect to just raze all native settlements, it might be a good idea from a gameplay and coding point of view. The last is likely the most important as I imagine around 0 programmers willing to code this. Or rather than willing I would say it's more like a question of available time to do something like that.
Yes. I see your point about time. But I think it would bring a real new dimension to the game. As it is currently, Aztecs and Incas are just normal natives with city walls, making them harder to destroy with no real reason to do so. So in the end, as a player we just ignore them. Outside nice graphics, they don't really bring any better value to the game.
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Old Feb 27, 2014, 05:25 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by Marla_Singer View Post
New Spain was Mexico, with as capital city Mexico City, the most populous city of the Precolumbian era. That's where it really all started for Spain in the Americas.
Well, from a gaming standpoint the starting point was good, but to say that's where it really started for Spain is well non historical and a disservice to the first Spanish adventurers to say that their work and adventures were not really useful, as well as to the rich history of La Isabella and Panama.
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Old Feb 27, 2014, 05:54 PM   #11
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@Nightingale:

Thinking about it again, I think the easiest may be simply for the game to consider those 3 civilizations as "European", but with limited abilities: unable to found colonies (no European units), unable to build ships and several buildings, to produce bells and so on.

I've done some quick testing with the Aztecs simply in editing the CivilizationInfos.xml and making the Deity Huitzilopochtli their king. I agree with you it would still require a lot of time and knowledge of the game code.
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Old Feb 27, 2014, 06:32 PM   #12
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Well, from a gaming standpoint the starting point was good, but to say that's where it really started for Spain is well non historical and a disservice to the first Spanish adventurers to say that their work and adventures were not really useful, as well as to the rich history of La Isabella and Panama.
Yes, you're indeed right.

I've been quite short and blunt in my judgement.
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Old Feb 27, 2014, 06:41 PM   #13
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Thinking about it again, I think the easiest may be simply for the game to consider those 3 civilizations as "European", but with limited abilities: unable to found colonies (no European units), unable to build ships and several buildings, to produce bells and so on.
Actually now that I think about it, I wonder what it would take to conquer native settlements. Imagine we add a bool to civilization XML telling if their settlements can be conquered. Next step is during conquering the city should remove buildings the new owner can't build (like totem poles). Next would be XML setup to define precisely which buildings the specific indians can build. I wonder how that would work out or if it even works at all. I'm still not sure if it is a good idea.

Thinking about the native European idea, I wonder how far we can take this. Editing CivilizationInfo we can set units, buildings and professions and tell which they can build. With a bit of work we should be able to make a european with braves and stuff like that. While we can't entirely prevent bell production, we can make a "native" trait, which we then set to -10000% bell production. In fact I think the limit on the multiplier is 2.1 billion. The same approach can be used on other yields.

3 problems remain:
1: 200 food -> new unit
The new unit is hardcoded in the DLL to be free colonist for Europeans. I have a plan to be able to set this in XML in M:C (seriously, I thought about this ability a while ago), but that wouldn't affect RaR.

2: economics
The colonization AI is very simpleminded. European AIs produces different yields. Most yields are send to port colonies (access to ocean) where it will be loaded on to ships. The ships then sails to Europe where the yields are sold and tools, weapons, horses etc are bought and the ship returns to a port colony to repeat.

I have no idea how that AI will handle not having any ships at all. It is simply not designed for that scenario.

3:
Only natives sell yields, give gifts, teach specialists etc.
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Old Feb 27, 2014, 10:30 PM   #14
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How about we introduce the Travois special unit (which would be essentially a Wagon, but for Natives) which could go to European cities and sell them stuff?
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Old Feb 28, 2014, 05:05 AM   #15
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How about we introduce the Travois special unit (which would be essentially a Wagon, but for Natives) which could go to European cities and sell them stuff?
There is no need. They just need to place a unit in the colony and then they can sell directly from their settlements. While a transport unit is more realistic I would say that it is simply not worth the effort to teach the AI new tricks.

While I like the will to improve RaR shown here, I will have to say that realistically speaking we would likely need a new C++ programmer to make anything like this. RaR has been announced as final version a few times because of lack of modders. Ray doesn't have the time and I spend most of my time on M:C. In fact I do nothing really for RaR except bugfixes and code, which can also be used in M:C. This is what's left of the coding power in RaR. In other words changes which requires coding are unlikely to be made. Still I wouldn't say it would never happen, but I predict no idea from this thread will ever be coded unless a new programmer shows up.
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Old Feb 28, 2014, 06:12 AM   #16
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Don't worry Nightingale, this was just an idea. There's absolutely no urge for it.
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Old Feb 28, 2014, 06:29 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by Schmiddie View Post
Wow, that sounds very nice!

Thank you for your work!

Some questions:

What is the size of the map? (personally I'm interested in a map with the size "gigantic"...)
There are 8 playable nations, why are only 6 placed on the map?
You have only placed 19 native nations? We already have implemented 30 native nations ...

Maybe you use an old version of the mod? The current version is 1.9.
I have some good news for you.

Map size

As said: the map is 68x128 pixels. However, there are 51% more land tiles on this map than on TAC America (3,021 vs 1,927). So it is actually significantly bigger. Indeed, there are less sea tiles than on TAC, but those have poor value as most of them send to Europe.

Because I wanted to balance my map as much as possible, I've calculated tons of stats regarding the tiles use. I could post them here this evening if anyone is interested.


All civs version

I've done a quick study of all the missing natives and I actually could add them all!

I'll edit this weekend a version with everyone (30 Natives + 8 Europeans). I plan to add it as an extra version in the .zip folder of the map.
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Old Feb 28, 2014, 07:26 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by Marla_Singer View Post
As said: the map is 68x128 pixels. However, there are 51% more land tiles on this map than on TAC America (3,021 vs 1,927). So it is actually significantly bigger. Indeed, there are less sea tiles than on TAC, but those have poor value as most of them send to Europe.
What will the number of land plots be if we skip counting arctic plots? Quite a lot of the new north produces too little food to be really useful. However feeder service to supply food to northern colonies. Manually set trade routes should also do the job just fine. This mean the land isn't useless as you can build mining colonies, which relies on food supplied automatically from the south. Still I expect the colony density to be really low compared to say the mid west.

Another thing. Each piece of land is called a "plot", not "tile". Not that it makes a huge difference, but I tend to stick to the name given in the source code
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Old Feb 28, 2014, 02:37 PM   #19
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What will the number of land plots be if we skip counting arctic plots?
Here are all the stats I can give you.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightinggale View Post
Quite a lot of the new north produces too little food to be really useful. However feeder service to supply food to northern colonies. Manually set trade routes should also do the job just fine. This mean the land isn't useless as you can build mining colonies, which relies on food supplied automatically from the south. Still I expect the colony density to be really low compared to say the mid west.
Indeed, but I don't believe the map must be fully covered anyway. That shouldn't the case in Colonization (and it's not even the case in real life).

You make me think that I've forgotten to give docks to the Inuits. Damn' their cities must starve! I'll correct that.

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Originally Posted by Nightinggale View Post
Another thing. Each piece of land is called a "plot", not "tile". Not that it makes a huge difference, but I tend to stick to the name given in the source code
Thanks, you're right it's clearer if we all speak the same language.
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Old Feb 28, 2014, 03:02 PM   #20
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@Marla_Singer:

Thanks for sharing this scenario map.

It is really nice to see that people enjoy our mod.
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