[Religion and Revolution]: Mod Development

[Robert Surcouf]

Hello everyone,

I've opened this topic, so we can discuss features we would like to add to our new Mod.
If someone has an idea, feel free to tell us.

1) So first of all. What are we going to call our mod? Religion and Revolution is a start...
Shall we keep this name or not? Let's talk about it!

2) Feature list and ideas:
Someone has to start ! Let's go then:

a) Storms and Winds and even more! Nothing ever happens in Civ4Col on ocean tiles. I added some terrain features in my Storm and Light mod. But I would like to do even more. I would like to add ocean events. Vimaire33 from French forum even suggested me to add illness events on ocean plots (by the way Ray, he might be able to help us with game texts, I'll contact him)

b) Religion. Here's my point. Why did everyone want to go to the New World? Answer one: because of the riches of the New World. Answer two: because of the religious wars. There really is something missing here. I would like to add religious features.
I like Ray's second parent idea. He will probably tell us more about is.

c) Wild Animals and Pirates. It's quite funny how you can cross the ocean, or even land without any problems. I really want us to be slowed down by animals, pirate, and even events. We really should have to "fight" if we want to explore...

d) Slavery,Africa, Port Royal. Slavery is part of American and European history. Moreover, I would really like to be able to sell/buy stuff in Africa and/or in Port Royal!

[raystuttgart]

Originally Posted by Robert Surcouf

Storms and Winds and even more! Nothing ever happens in Civ4Col on ocean tiles. I added some terrain features in my Storm and Light mod.

I have seen your work and I like it.
(Would you like to post some screenshots to it in this thread, so that others understand a little better ?)

Originally Posted by Robert Surcouf

But I would like to do even more. I would like to add ocean events.

Could you explain that a little bit ?

But basically:
From my side that feature is accepted !

[Robert Surcouf]

Hi,
Here you go !

Large white clouds favorable winds. Small black clouds, unfavorable winds, and large black clouds are Storms!

Events [to be implemented]. Well I'll have to think about it. For now, your ships sometimes get caught in a Storm and get even higher damage than usual (Storms damage your ship on every turn).

As I said, someone talked to me about diseases. Sailor's often got sick due to a lack of food. That's all for now... I'll think about it !

[raystuttgart]

Originally Posted by Robert Surcouf

Events [to be implemented]. Well I'll have to think about it.

Remind me to explain you the python-/xml-based event system integrated in TAC in detail.
(The DLL-Events are something different.)

[Robert Surcouf]

Hi everyone,

Yell I will !

Some other ideas:

e) Bug-fixes and improvements! [to be implemented]
There are many bugs in Civ4Col. Dale, TAC-team, M07 and many others have corrected bugs, and have improved game mechanisms. I still think we can improve things.
Unless this has already been done, I think there's in error in Tax mechanisms (iMultiplier can never be greater than 100 in CvPlayer.cpp)
We can also improve AI players.

f) Diplomacy [existing implementation]
I would really like to improve Diplomacy !
What do you think of my "no more variables hidden" Ray? I'll show everyone ASAP what I mean...
I really like your bargaining with natives !

[raystuttgart]

Originally Posted by Robert Surcouf

e) Bug-fixes and improvements! [to be implemented]
There are many bugs in Civ4Col. Dale, TAC-team, M07 and many others have corrected bugs, and have improved game mechanisms. I still think we can improve things.

Of course.

Originally Posted by Robert Surcouf

Unless this has already been done, I think there's in error in Tax mechanisms (iMultiplier can never be greater than 100 in CvPlayer.cpp)
We can also improve AI players.

As you say, a lot of bugs were fixed in TAC.
I do not know of any bug considering taxes in there.

AI has also been improved dramatically in TAC !
(Believe me, there is no other Civ4Col-mod having a more intelligent AI than TAC.)

Originally Posted by Robert Surcouf

f) Diplomacy [existing implementation]
I would really like to improve Diplomacy !

Sure, I always wanted to have more interaction with natives, other players and also the king.

I have several ideas and already implemented some stuff here.
(I will describe / present it at a later point.)

Originally Posted by Robert Surcouf

What do you think of my "no more variables hidden" Ray? I'll show everyone ASAP what I mean...

I only know about it in general, sorry.
You will have to explain me the details again.

Originally Posted by Robert Surcouf

I really like your bargaining with natives !

Thank you.
(I will present it at a later point, too.)

[raystuttgart]

My Concept about Religion:

Protestants and Catholics

General remarks:

• This concept is not about telling Religion A is better than Religion B
• Most of my concepts are related to others, so is this.
  (I will try to explain as good as I can, without getting too deep into the other concepts.)
• Some of the involved concepts / features already exist at least partially.

1. Every European Nation has a primary Religion
(I have checked it, it should fit historically)

Catholics: France, Spain, Portugal
Protestants: England, Holland, Prussia

So it is 3 Catholic Nations "vs." 3 Protestant Nations

2. Every European Nation has a Second Religious Parent (additionally to the King of course)

Catholics -> The Pope
England -> The Archbischop of Canterbury
Holland -> ?
Prussia -> ?

The Second Religious Parent will give quests and rewards if you do a good job keeping up your primary religion.

3. Each religion has its own Specialists

Missionary:
Jesuitmissionary (Catholic)
Protestant Missionary (Protestant)

Crosses:

Priest (Catholic)
Preacher (Protestant)

Catholic Bishop
Protestant Bishop

Bishops are Superspecialists for crosses, very rare, ususally only available as reward for high rate of primary religion by Second Religious Parent,
or as a quest-reward if you build a "Great Cathedral".

The specialists of both religions are available in every European harbour.
However the specialists of the primary religion are a little more common and cheaper.

3. There are 2 Types of Churches and 2 Types of Crosses

Every city could generally have a protestant and a catholic church.

However if the city is very small you can only build one of them.
(You can build the other if the city grows.)

Also only one of these 2 churches can be made to "Cathedral" which can become "Great Cathedral" later on.

So you have to decide on which religion you focus in which city.

Depending on the buildings you have and the cross-specialists a city will produce 2 types of crosses. (Technically.)

There will be a display like that for example:
(The "+" should be a cross.)

15+ (7 C / 8 P)

4. Settlers have a religion

In the nationspecific immigration-pools the primary religion of that nation is dominant.
But there are also immigrants of the other religion.
(Catholic Irish people for example were also immigrating to the English colonies.)

The mixture is about 80:20.

The same for Settler units that are bought.

There is a [C] or a [P] in the unit-details to display their religion.

The immigration of the settlers depends on the crosses you produce.

Protestant and Catholic settlers have their own thresholds for crosses needed for immigration.
(So if you had a lot of Catholic immigrants, there might still be a lot of Protestant immigrants that are very willing to come to your colonies if they feel that their religion is honored.)

In the second all european immigration-pool it is 50:50.
(This also is a new concept.)

5. Converting and Running away to other Nation

By Using the cross-specialists and the according buildings it is possible to convert catholics to protestants and vice-versa.

If the Religion of a Settler is the minority in a city and if there are no Soulkeepers for them in that city,
it is very possible that they run away from you and appear in the closest city of another European Nation, where their religion is the majority.

6. Slight Differences between the 2 Religions
(Actually this is optional)

• Protestant settlers will leave a colony where Protestants are the minority a little easier for another colony, where Protestants are the majority
• Protestant preacher and bishop produce a little more crosses than the catholic cross specialists
• Catholic priests and bishop are a little bit better in improving Satisfaction / Happiness (another large concept)
• Catholic priests and bishop are a little bit better in converting Protestants than the protestants are in converting catholics
• Jesuitmissionaries are a little bit better converting natives

Basicallly:
Catholics -> Better in converting and creating stability
Protestants -> Better in drawing immigrants and unhappy colonists

7. Effects of Religion

• Religion is a sub-factor of Happiness / Satisfaction which is very important
• Religion of course affects immigration
• Good rates of your primary religion will grant you rewards from the second parent
• Balanced rates between the religions will grant you the most immigrants in the long run
• Nations with the same religion tend to like each other a little better
• If you do not take care of religion your settlers might run away

So ok, this is it.

Feedback ?

[Robert Surcouf]

Well I really love this idea !

I like the quest idea ! Super-specialists, great!

In the second all European immigration-pool it is 50:50.
(This also is a new concept.)

I don't understand... What is a the "all European immigration-pool"?

1) Every European Nation has a primary Religion

Very good. When I read your German text, I misunderstood that point... It is very good!

Ray, could you please try to find a idea I don't like now ?

[raystuttgart]

Originally Posted by Robert Surcouf

Well I really love this idea !

Great.
(So you accept this feature for our list, right ?)

Originally Posted by Robert Surcouf

Super-specialists, great!

Two Superspecialists are already integrated in my preview.
(One for bells and one for crosses.)

Originally Posted by Robert Surcouf

I don't understand... What is a the "all European immigration-pool"?

It is another concept of mine I will describe in detail soon.

In Short:

Basically it introduces a second immigration pool symboling the immigrants from all other european nations.
(For example like Russia or Poland.)

The European nations all share this pool and compete for the immigrants in it.
(If one nation takes out an immigrant from that pool it is lost for the other nations.)

I am really sorry, but I have so many concepts that it will simply take time to explain.
(A lot of them are related to others ...)

[Robert Surcouf]

(So you accept this feature for our list, right ?)

Yes I do !

Basically it introduces a second immigration pool symboling the immigrants from all other European nations.
(For example like Russia or Poland.)

I like that too.

[raystuttgart]

Originally Posted by Robert Surcouf

I like that too.

Ok, I will try to give detailled explanations on the "Second / All European Immigration Pool" soon.

[colonialfan]

I have a few suggestions pertaining to the mod you are developing.


1. Playable European civs: England, France, Spain, Holland, Denmark & Sweden. (These were the major players in European colonization of the America's.

2. Embroilment in European wars: In the original civ, your monarch could drag you into a war with another colonial power through going to war with them in Europe. Seems to be missing from this incarnation of the game.

3. A colony's revolutionary status: When you declare independence shouldn't your colonies that only have over 50% rebel sentiment join you? That way you could decide what colonies you wanted to push for independence and what ones you would be willing to let go, such as isolated, far flung colonies or those on small unproductive islands etc. Any of your colonies that were under 50% when you declared independence would remain loyal to the king, unless you captured them and increased their liberty bell production. In such a scenario, say you were playing as England, you could if you wanted, repeat history and end up with the partition of the British Empire, with the British maintaining Canada and their possessions in the Caribbean but losing the eastern seaboard to the new United States. It would be much more historical than the wholesale expulsion of your former mother country from the game, and probably more fun.

4. Ablility to play the game for a longer time period after independence: It would add a new dimension to the game, the ability to continue founding colonies, westward expansion, trade and possible renewed war with your former mother country (if point 3 is considered)

5. Foreign intervention and aid during WOI: Just like it was in the original colonization, with one of the other European powers aiding you in your struggle.

6. Slavery: I know its been mentioned in other posts, but for a game based on recreating the colonial experience it is a must. The game has no qualms about the mistreatment of Native peoples, so slavery should not be an issue. The obvious advantage to slavery in a colony would be the increase in production with a smaller food consumption, but to prevent colonies being filled with just slaves there should be some disadvantges also. Perhaps their could be a greater risk of slaves escaping from colonies, and colonies that have slaves could recieve some kind of liberty bell penalty. Therefore it would be a trade off, do you want more production in a colony with a slower/low liberty bell production, or do you want high liberty bell production at the cost of cheap labor?

Obviously these are just a few ideas I'm throwing out there that for me would make the game more enjoyable. I'm not a modder and have no idea how feasible it would be to incorporate any of these ideas. I'm just glad that someone is looking to create a new mod and that the game and interest in it is not dead after the release of Civ 5.

[Robert Surcouf]

Well thank you Colonialfan!

I like your ideas!

2. Embroilment in European wars:
5. Foreign intervention and aid during WOI:

I think this is already planned !

1. Playable European civs: England, France, Spain, Holland, Denmark & Sweden. (These were the major players in European colonization of the America's.
3. A colony's revolutionary status: (...) with the British maintaining Canada

Good ideas! I have even learned something today thanks to you Colonialfan!

6. Slavery: I know its been mentioned in other posts, but for a game based on recreating the colonial experience it is a must.

I agree.

[RenaissanceFan]

Count me in. I don't know much about modding, but I'll help with whatever I can.

I also got an (somewhat weird) idea:

Visitable Europe: I think the Europe Screen is too bland. You should be able to actually go into Europe, for example, send a ship to London, Seville, Lisbon, etc. This would be hard to code, but I guess it would open a myriad of other opportunities.

Actually, this one leads to a few other ideas:

Variable Prices: I'll take England for an example. You could sail to London and sell your cargo for x each unit, or you could sail to other cities, searching for the best prices. The prices could be updated each 8-12 turns (on a normal speed game).

Relations with Government: You could also be able to convince people of your motherland's government to help you. Say, you could convince a rebellious general or admiral to help you, or a merchant to help keep you on the black. This idea could also be applied in an international scale.


Basically, this would differentiate the relations in the game. I mean, instead of being either liked or disliked by everyone in your motherland (realistic, no?), you could be disliked by the more loyal, and like by the less loyal, or the contrary.

[raystuttgart]

Originally Posted by Robert Surcouf

I think this is already planned !

It is even already done !
(It did these 2 features with TAC.)

[raystuttgart]

Originally Posted by colonialfan

1. Playable European civs: England, France, Spain, Holland, Denmark & Sweden. (These were the major players in European colonization of the America's.

Yes, Sweden and Denmark would be possible too.
We will have to talk about it.

Originally Posted by colonialfan

2. Embroilment in European wars:

This already exists in TAC and thus will be part of our work.

Originally Posted by colonialfan

3. A colony's revolutionary status:

I already have a concept like that
(I simply need time to explain all my new concepts, they are more than 50 !)

Originally Posted by colonialfan

4. Ablility to play the game for a longer time period after independence: It would add a new dimension to the game, the ability to continue founding colonies, westward expansion, trade and possible renewed war with your former mother country (if point 3 is considered)

Was thinking about that too, but currently I would like to focus on War of Independence phase.

Originally Posted by colonialfan

5. Foreign intervention and aid during WOI:

Already exists in TAC, too.

Originally Posted by colonialfan

6. Slavery:

We have a large concept for that too.
(Some parts of it are already existant.)

Thanks a lot for your remarks.

We simply need time to present all the features we already have or discuss our new ideas.

[raystuttgart]

Originally Posted by RenaissanceFan

Count me in. I don't know much about modding, but I'll help with whatever I can.

Great.

For now, you are very welcome to join our discussions.
(We are just starting and need to organize ourselves a little. )

But generally yes, everybody who likes our ideas is welcome to help or join the team.
(Simply currently everything is a little chaotic. )

Originally Posted by RenaissanceFan

Visitable Europe: I think the Europe Screen is too bland. You should be able to actually go into Europe, for example, send a ship to London, Seville, Lisbon, etc. This would be hard to code, but I guess it would open a myriad of other opportunities.

Again, I have a complete technical concept for that too.

And no, it is not weird, and not impossible to code !
(Yes, it is some work ...)

Originally Posted by RenaissanceFan

Variable Prices

There are new pricing mechanisms in TAC !
(We will not use ugly "Vanilla" as Base.)

Originally Posted by RenaissanceFan

Relations with Government:

Interesting idea.

[Robert Surcouf]

Hi everyone !

I like your ideas RenaissanceFan !

Visitable Europe: and Variable Prices

Actually, I had the same idea! "Vanilla" Civ4Col It is quite disappointing sometimes. The more goods you sell, the more taxes you get! Instead of being happy, the King seems to be quite unhappy when you sell goods...
I would really like to see some life and activity in Europe. I really think we should have a diplomatic bonus when we come back with goods and/or treasures !
And I really would like to see Europe cities change when we bring back goods from the new World. Maybe we could even add buildings in Europe Screen (and even in-game features) as a reward !

By the way, RenaissanceFan have you found what you were looking for in
CvInfos.cpp file ?

Originally Posted by raystuttgart

Again, I have a complete technical concept for that too.

And no, it is not weird, and not impossible to code !
(Yes, it is some work ...)

I don't believe it ! I'm listening ...

[raystuttgart]

Originally Posted by Robert Surcouf

I don't believe it ! I'm listening ...

Believe it ...

I have created concepts and even detailled technical concepts (and also some implementations for those) for more than half a year now after leaving TAC.

Altogether I have designed about 50 new features in that time !
(A lot of them I explained in my German Forum, but I know that not everybody understand German. )

• Some of them are already implemented (see my RWL-Preview-Release).
• Some of them I have only experimented with and tried out how basic functions could be implemented (for exampel "Inland Sales" and "Wild Animals placed by Geography").
• Some of them I have very detailled technical concepts.
• Some of them I only have normal concepts or basic ideas.

I really need time to explain.
(I am also very curious, which of my concepts you will like and which you won't like.)

[Gomer_Pyle]

I really like the ideas put forward here. Keep it up! :-)