Immortal Sitting Bull

^ No, the failure shows exactly why oracle longbows is a bad idea. In general .

1 AD



Now, with Xbow available my target is hopeless w/o longbows but even if he gets them (probable) none of his offensive stack + 70% of his defenders will struggle to find and answer to xbow. Longbow will defend first but once it takes damage from catapult nothing else will resist xbow hits at all (I can take a few guys with cover in to deal with longbows too). Vassalage + totem + rax = what, 8 xp? Got very unlucky against barb cities (missed 2 75% battles to unlock heroic epic) but still should be a steamroll game.

This could obviously be played as a straight lib game too, instead of feud here just grab caste + farm out gsci while hiding behind cg III xbow as needed.

Re. new map selection and assuming TMIT hasn't been too discouraging....

Suggest #3 and go via AH to writing? Skip pottery till after monarchy, AH is cheaper than wheel/pottery too and there's nothing to cottage in the capital. Otherwise #1, not #2 I'd say.

Since you're thinking of semi-rushing this isn't a spoiler really but:

TheMeInTeam said:

^ No, the failure shows exactly why oracle longbows is a bad idea. In general .

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I am not searching optimal play with this. Just trying to make some fun.

Well the first attempt wasn't that fun though ;-).

Oracle is always risky gambit no matter how you look at it or what you plan to take.

I saw on Immortal T52 Oracle dates... exactly when I was deep into PH right after having some worker techs, burning 20 science turns for nothing.

On this start if I went from the 1880 save I could easily take MC without problems, the only thing worth mentioning being that I wasn't in position to whip forge in city 2 soon, so i would have first great person GP.
That would be big complication for the game plan and force me to delay the Oracle anyway.

^ My point here is rather simple:

1. t70 oracle is ridiculous, you simply can't rely on that. Sometimes it goes 2000 BC to 1800 BC, and I can't think of too many starts on immortal that allow you to get it before that reliably. Double gems maybe, but if we're trying to prove something is a "good idea", I'd like to point out that MOST strategies do pretty well with double gem starts!
2. Longbows are actually less effective at attacking archers than swordsmen. Why not just go worker steal/choke strat resources and oracle IW at this rate ? It's cheaper, hits harder, hits sooner...even for sitting bull! (edit: if you haven't tried this, I suggest doing so because it is also fun ).
3. Hell, why not just straight-tech BW and build 8 dogs before 2000 BC? That usually kills non-protective civs and has far less fail chance. It's also similarly novel.
4. SB can easily bulb math and take construction from the oracle, or currency to pay bills + sell resources + conquer more before having to stop. This, too, is far less risky (though it carries some) and is more effective than anything a feudalism oracle can do.

Also, in my game I didn't build any wonders, oracle included. I bulbed machinery with a scientist. Cap has academy too.

Kid R said:

Re. new map selection and assuming TMIT hasn't been too discouraging....

Suggest #3 and go via AH to writing? Skip pottery till after monarchy, AH is cheaper than wheel/pottery too and there's nothing to cottage in the capital. Otherwise #1, not #2 I'd say.

Since you're thinking of semi-rushing this isn't a spoiler really but:

Spoiler :

There's nobody conveniently placed to attack BC in #2.

#3 is best on that score, #1 would be OK too.

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Map 1 offers reasonable food, great commerce, lacks trees for chops. makes it easier with tech choice (not needing AH for food)

Map 3 somehow needs hunting, ah and probably TW anyway. (well i COULD ignore the ivory, but tough to ignore the cows, since it's one of reasons I would choose the map over map 1)

Map 2 was posted for political correctness ;-) wasn't much hopes to try it.

I am not creative so going early writing even if on paper looks good, have my doubts, since those 90H isn't small investment.

I don't know why you aim for Oracle->Feudalism. Pulling this will prove nothing - it's still gamble on emperor+ even with gold/gems start.

With your previous start I easily pulled Oracle->MC->Chop forge in second city in less then 6 turns->GE->Bulb Machinery gambit with sloppy play.

Speaking of Totem Poles been useless:

I don't know who bribed whom and it does not matter to me. Whip couple Totem Pole powered archers and I am safe till X-bows arrive. 2 Dog Soldiers would not save me from that stuck even though Shaka did not bring chariots.



Otherwise this could be gg.

In fact if I'd bother micro my research I would have Machinery same turn as GE was born.
AI got no clue how to deal with these early super X-bows.

TheMeInTeam said:

2. Longbows are actually less effective at attacking archers than swordsmen. Why not just go worker steal/choke strat resources and oracle IW at this rate ? It's cheaper, hits harder, hits sooner...even for sitting bull! (edit: if you haven't tried this, I suggest doing so because it is also fun ).

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I guess the fun is because it's Native America, trying to get high-drill units out the gate. Especially if drill 4 could be wangled somehow, maybe using Churchill instead

Having said that as you say the same XP used on CR swordsmen are probably just as good.

And feudalism just isn't a rush tech, it costs so many beakers even to set up an oracle shot.

Map 1. Maps 2 and 3 have ivory. Ivory = auto-win most of the time. Why longbows when, with the same effort, you can get phants?

MarigoldRan said:

Map 1. Maps 2 and 3 have ivory. Ivory = auto-win most of the time. Why longbows when, with the same effort, you can get phants?

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More like less effort. Construction is an easier oracle by a lot because 9 turns of 2scientist will net you a math bulb. It might be doable to get the oracle off in the low t50 range on most starts, always by t60 or so. Then you just need to research HBR/back trade other techs + expand.

I though that any time I was going to see the message of Oracle being built in a far off land but was able to get the Oracle on T71. With gold it probably is much easier.

I think T63 is a doable target with gold.

I tried again with your first gold map and stole a worker from French. That game was fast. Got the oracle completer on T60 with 2 chops.

I tried this long time ago on a BOTM and lost it by a turn or so. Very painful.

Maybe there will be another one again.

GKey said:

I don't know why you aim for Oracle->Feudalism. Pulling this will prove nothing - it's still gamble on emperor+ even with gold/gems start.

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Not to mention that the Oracle shines if you have no commerce, while with gold/gems you are almost always better off with doing a normal start
Or if you need Alpha to bribe warmongers onto someone, or CoL if you are PHI...
but Feudalism nopes i never do that.

I highly suggest folks try the first of V's second group of saves. I tried save 3 and then save 1. Had a much easier go of Oracling Feud with Save 1 and had LBs and Cats ready at a very early BC date. Furthermore, Save 1 is interesting for other reasons that I will just allude to by saying that this approach works well and is necessary for this map. My one failure being that I attacked the wrong Civ first and made the mistake of bribing someone in on that war that I should not have. Very winnable game though and LBs rock. A second GP allowed me to bulb Theo, so I was in Vass and Theo for 3 promo LBs.