Swedish Empire Scenario
- Thread starter Big Bopper
- Start date
Big Bopper
Warlord
That would be great.Kyriakos said:I might be able to help with some gfx
Thanks, I hadn't thought of any of these yet; I'll take a look at including some as resources. I especially like the idea of adding herring, even if its two centuries early.bombshoo said:Some of these might already be bonus or strategic resources you've considered but some ideas: wax, salt, amber, cod, herring, beets, mushrooms, mustard, lard, flax, glass, hemp, leather, honey/mead, beer.
- Joined
- Mar 17, 2007
- Messages
- 9,280
Nothing says we can't have luxury resources require a certain technology, right? I'm thinking perhaps that might be a way to introduce some overseas trade luxuries. I'm not sure there's a great way to make them appear at different times, though. Although if you did want to include some concept of nations becoming involved in trade at different times, you might be able to have the 3+ luxury bonus happiness building that would be whole-empire spawned by building a unique wonder. Said wonder would in turn depend on a pre-placed "national wonder", such as a Sweden Wonder, that each country would have their own of. The technologies required for a unique wonder could then vary. Maintenance costs of the wonder/buildings could also vary to reflect costs/monopolization of trade.
But yeah, I'm not coming up with killer ideas for luxuries in that time period. English saffron would be appropriate time-wise, but is off the map, so I'm struggling with native luxuries.
I'm also trying to think how to work in fjords. Personally, I think they add contentedness, but I'm not sure that's relevant if you live there all the time. Of course you'd probably want them as wonders so someone couldn't destroy a fjord with a catapult.
And in the bonus resource category, I'd include reindeer in the north (in addition to more southerly regular deer). You probably don't want huge populations up there, as even today there aren't many people real far north (except in Murmansk), but a +1 food/shield bonus or so might be about right. Maybe even +2 if you give tundra 0 food to start with.
But yeah, I'm not coming up with killer ideas for luxuries in that time period. English saffron would be appropriate time-wise, but is off the map, so I'm struggling with native luxuries.
I'm also trying to think how to work in fjords. Personally, I think they add contentedness, but I'm not sure that's relevant if you live there all the time. Of course you'd probably want them as wonders so someone couldn't destroy a fjord with a catapult.
And in the bonus resource category, I'd include reindeer in the north (in addition to more southerly regular deer). You probably don't want huge populations up there, as even today there aren't many people real far north (except in Murmansk), but a +1 food/shield bonus or so might be about right. Maybe even +2 if you give tundra 0 food to start with.
Big Bopper
Warlord
Luxuries can require a tech, I have no problem with that. I do want to symbolize colonization and creating a building may be the way to go. Maybe the best way is to have a small wonder (Delaware Colony or New Sweden) that provides +2 or +3 happiness throughout the empire. This way if the city (maybe allowing only Goteborg to construct) that builds it is captured the effects are gone forever (Simulating the Dutch capture of Delaware in the 1650's). I like the idea of adding maintenance cost to the wonder as well.Quintillus said:
Just being Swedish is a luxury in itselfQuintillus said:
I think the best way would be to add fjords as LM Mountains and add some type of benefit. (Has such a terrain ever been made?) This will also give you something interesting to look at, while scrolling through the map.Quintillus said:
I'll add reindeer and deer. I'll probably make the cities in the far north difficult to grow beyond size 3 or 4.Quintillus said:
Virote_Considon
The Great Dictator
You start in 1561, missing out on all the fun of meddling in the crumbling Livonian Confederation to the east?
How about 1523, with the dissolution of the Kalmar Union (and thus the founding of the modern Swedish state)?
A separate Hansa civ could be a good idea for (another?) waning state, or even the city of Lübeck as an independent entity by itself, with a large amount of ships of better quality than everyone else preplaced at the start, but only being able to actually build sub-par vessels throughout the remainder of the game, representing their waning power.
How about 1523, with the dissolution of the Kalmar Union (and thus the founding of the modern Swedish state)?
A separate Hansa civ could be a good idea for (another?) waning state, or even the city of Lübeck as an independent entity by itself, with a large amount of ships of better quality than everyone else preplaced at the start, but only being able to actually build sub-par vessels throughout the remainder of the game, representing their waning power.
timerover51
Deity
When things settle down a bit here, I will give some help as well. Here are some ideas off the top of my head.
You had three of the greatest military engineers in history alive and operating at the same time in Sebastien Vauban of France, Menno Coehoorn of Holland, and Erik Dahlbergh of Sweden. Vauban was the fortress builder par excellence, Coehoorn developed the lightweight Coehoorn mortar for infantry and siege use, while Dahlbergh fortified Sweden. That would give you three country-specific Wonders in the Vauban Fortress, the Coehoorn Earthworks, and the Dahlbergh Forts. Say give the populations in all cities a +3 or +4 happiness for confidence in their defenses.
Resources would have to include Swedish copper, as that was a major strategic resource for Sweden. The warship Vasa was entirely equipped with bronze cannon, which would have been nearly impossibly expensive for most other European countries. The Swedish bronze 4 pounder battalion gun, developed by Gustavus Adolphus was easily the finest light artillery piece of the period.
Cod came primarily from the Grand Banks of Newfoundland, and could be best represented by a Small Wonder, Grand Banks Fishing, which would allow for the building in any city on the coast of a building that increases food in the water, allowing for the city to grow larger quickly.
For a strategic resource, Naval Stores, which comprised turpentine, resin, pitch, and tar, vital for ship construction and maintenance. They are derived primarily from coniferous forests, and were a major product of the Baltic region.
Versailles, which would easily qualify as a Wonder, was built in France by Louis the XIV during the period, along with Blenheim Place built in England by the Duke of Marlborough. St. Paul's Cathedral in London was built under the direction of Christopher Wren at this time as well, along with the Royal Naval College at Greenwich, England. St. Petersburg was begun on the Gulf of Finland by Peter the Great of Russia to be Russia's Window on the Baltic, so would also quality as a Wonder. I think that I can come up with more given a little time.
Poland was a major wheat exporter of the era, so you might want a resource, Polish Wheat, found in the vicinity of Poland, that yields gold as well as food. Do the same with the Naval Stores.
You also had during that period some of the great military commanders in history, chief of which would be Gustavus Adolphus Vasa II, one of the Great Captains of military history, along with Charles the XII of Sweden, viewed by Napoleon as the most offensively-minded military commanders in history. For France, you have Marshall Turenne and The Great Conde, for the Holy Roman Empire/Austria you have Prince Eugene and Wallenstein, Lennart Torstenson of Sweden is one of the great artillerist in history, Prince Bernhard of Saxe-Weimar and the Great Elector of Brandenburg-Prussia for Germany/Prussia, and the aforementioned John Churchill, the Duke of Marlborough for England. Great naval commanders of the period would include Michael De Ruyter of the Netherlands, one of the very few naval commanders ever to get the better of the British, along with Martin Tromp, with Robert Blake and General Monck of England, and the French corsair Jean Bart. I will need to check my Influence of Sea Power on History by Mahan to get more naval commanders for you.
For warships, you should have the frigate, representing your smaller patrolling ships of the era, along with a two-deck ship as your somewhat standard ship-of-the-line, carrying between 50 to 70 guns, along with a three deck ship of about 100 guns. Those you might want to have auto-produced by something like a Naval Architecture Small Wonder, so as to keep the number under control. They were important ships to have, but there was not a lot of them.
I hope this all helps. I will get you more when I can.
You had three of the greatest military engineers in history alive and operating at the same time in Sebastien Vauban of France, Menno Coehoorn of Holland, and Erik Dahlbergh of Sweden. Vauban was the fortress builder par excellence, Coehoorn developed the lightweight Coehoorn mortar for infantry and siege use, while Dahlbergh fortified Sweden. That would give you three country-specific Wonders in the Vauban Fortress, the Coehoorn Earthworks, and the Dahlbergh Forts. Say give the populations in all cities a +3 or +4 happiness for confidence in their defenses.
Resources would have to include Swedish copper, as that was a major strategic resource for Sweden. The warship Vasa was entirely equipped with bronze cannon, which would have been nearly impossibly expensive for most other European countries. The Swedish bronze 4 pounder battalion gun, developed by Gustavus Adolphus was easily the finest light artillery piece of the period.
Cod came primarily from the Grand Banks of Newfoundland, and could be best represented by a Small Wonder, Grand Banks Fishing, which would allow for the building in any city on the coast of a building that increases food in the water, allowing for the city to grow larger quickly.
For a strategic resource, Naval Stores, which comprised turpentine, resin, pitch, and tar, vital for ship construction and maintenance. They are derived primarily from coniferous forests, and were a major product of the Baltic region.
Versailles, which would easily qualify as a Wonder, was built in France by Louis the XIV during the period, along with Blenheim Place built in England by the Duke of Marlborough. St. Paul's Cathedral in London was built under the direction of Christopher Wren at this time as well, along with the Royal Naval College at Greenwich, England. St. Petersburg was begun on the Gulf of Finland by Peter the Great of Russia to be Russia's Window on the Baltic, so would also quality as a Wonder. I think that I can come up with more given a little time.
Poland was a major wheat exporter of the era, so you might want a resource, Polish Wheat, found in the vicinity of Poland, that yields gold as well as food. Do the same with the Naval Stores.
You also had during that period some of the great military commanders in history, chief of which would be Gustavus Adolphus Vasa II, one of the Great Captains of military history, along with Charles the XII of Sweden, viewed by Napoleon as the most offensively-minded military commanders in history. For France, you have Marshall Turenne and The Great Conde, for the Holy Roman Empire/Austria you have Prince Eugene and Wallenstein, Lennart Torstenson of Sweden is one of the great artillerist in history, Prince Bernhard of Saxe-Weimar and the Great Elector of Brandenburg-Prussia for Germany/Prussia, and the aforementioned John Churchill, the Duke of Marlborough for England. Great naval commanders of the period would include Michael De Ruyter of the Netherlands, one of the very few naval commanders ever to get the better of the British, along with Martin Tromp, with Robert Blake and General Monck of England, and the French corsair Jean Bart. I will need to check my Influence of Sea Power on History by Mahan to get more naval commanders for you.
For warships, you should have the frigate, representing your smaller patrolling ships of the era, along with a two-deck ship as your somewhat standard ship-of-the-line, carrying between 50 to 70 guns, along with a three deck ship of about 100 guns. Those you might want to have auto-produced by something like a Naval Architecture Small Wonder, so as to keep the number under control. They were important ships to have, but there was not a lot of them.
I hope this all helps. I will get you more when I can.
Big Bopper
Warlord
1561 was chosen as a start date, because it was in that year Reval (Tallinn) became a Swedish Protectorate, which started Sweden's attempt to conquer the Baltic. The beginning date has not be determined and I can be convinced to start the scenario earlier. I like the idea of adding Livonia and possibly adding a Swedish Rebel civ as well.Virote_Considon said:
The Hanseatic League will be added.Virote_Considon said:
I understand and hope everything works out.timerover51 said:
Copper will be added as a strategic resource and I'll take a look at adding light artillery.timerover51 said:
As of now France and England are not part of the scenario, as I believe it would take too much of the focus off of Sweden.timerover51 said:
Thanks, all the information will help a lot and I look forward to your next post.timerover51 said:
Wolfhart
The Last in Line
I'll follow this with great interest
And I'm very impressed with the extensive knowledge shown here about my little obscure fatherland
And I'm very impressed with the extensive knowledge shown here about my little obscure fatherland
timerover51
Deity
I'll follow this with great interest
And I'm very impressed with the extensive knowledge shown here about my little obscure fatherland
Hmmm, Wolfhart, I would not call Sweden a "little obscure fatherland." It was the homeland of one of the greatest leaders in all of military history, Gustavus Adolphus Vasa II, who is sometimes called a blend of both Alexander the Great and his organizing father, Philip of Macedon. It was also the homeland of one of history's great engineers in John Ericson, inventor of the screw propeller for ships and the USS Monitor, along with Alfred Noble, who tamed nitroglycerin by developing Dynamite, and Carl Linnaeus, one of the great scientists in history. Then there is the company called Bofors, who developed one of the greatest weapons in history in the 40mm Bofors gun.
Big Booper, I have spent some of the day, while waiting at the doctor's office, and then in the student union of my son's college while he managed,
, to attend one of his night classes, thinking about your scenario.With respect to the Ship-of-the-Line, you might want to consider two types, one produced at will and one auto-produced to keep the AI honest. The readily produced one would represent the two-decker ship of about 60 guns, with the frigate representing the single-deck ships. For the big three deck ship, that should be out-produced by a Small Wonder, called something like Great Ship Dock, that will take some prior research and also produce ships every 10 turns or so. This will keep the number under control, and also accurately reflect the limited number normally available during the period. For the Hanse, you might want to start them out with a small number of pre-positioned two-deck ships, and then limit them to building ships approximating the Galleon once the scenario starts.
With respect to leaders, I do not know if you can have custom leader units for specific leaders, but any Army formed with either Gustavus or Charles the XII as a leader should get some hefty bonuses, Gustavus both for offense and defense along with hit points, and Charles an even bigger offensive bonus, a small defensive bonus, and some extra hit points.
You might want to increase the combat experience difference between regular and veteran/elite troops, with most of your Imperial and German troops being regular, while your Swedish and their Dutch, Scottish, and English allies would be veteran to elite. Possibly, you might want to have country-specific barracks, or limit the Barracks to Sweden and the Netherlands, so as to achieve the needed troop quality differential.
You might want to look at a couple of books for some idea about land combat during the period. One is by B. P. Hughes, "Firepower: Weapons Effectiveness on the Battlefield 1630-1850". The other would be Volume II of J. F. C. Fuller's "A Military History of the Western World". Those do a nice job of covering the tactical innovations of Gustavus, and military developments of the period. For a good, but more popular style of writing, account of Gustavus, see Fletcher Pratt's "Battles that Changed History".
One other recommendation would be having the Heroic Epic available, with the one for Sweden pre-positioned, and set to auto-produce leaders on a regular basis. You could call it something besides Heroic Epic, but you should have that in the game, along with the Military Academy, set to allow for larger armies.
As I come up with leaders for all sides, I will pass them on to you, along with Wonders and resources.
Bengal Tiger
Emperor
I'm afraid I don't know much about this area at this time period, but was Finland independent at this time? I just find they never really get a major role in any scenario.
Anyhow, this looks very promising, hope it goes well.
Anyhow, this looks very promising, hope it goes well.
Big Bopper
Warlord
Good to hear!timerover51 said:Big Booper, I have spent some of the day, while waiting at the doctor's office, and then in the student union of my son's college while he managed,
I'll add this in, what do you think of the other naval units I have so far (Galleon, Yacht-->Cutter, Galley-->Bomb Ketch, Privateer) I basically just copied what was in Cossacks: European Wars.timerover51 said:
No this cannot be done, neat if it could. The closest I could come up with would be to use the king unit and upgrade it with certain techs (eg, Gustav-->Gustav II Adolph-->Charles XII). Since I don't want regicide for the scenario and the AI always keeps these units in cities, I won't be adding this.timerover51 said:
I'll keep this under consideration.timerover51 said:
Thanks for the recommendations.timerover51 said:
I really don't like to have armies unless they're battle produced, due to the ai never being able to use them correctly.timerover51 said:
If you can come up military leaders for all the nations involved that would be great and save me some time.timerover said:
Every now and then its good to learn about the old country.Wolfhart said:
Finland had been part of Sweden since the 12th century, and remained under Swedish rule until 1809 when Russia conquered it during the Napoleonic Wars. Finland wouldn't become independent until 1917, this is the reason why the only scenarios Finland is represented are WWII scenarios.Bengal Tiger said:
Weren't galleases still in use in the Baltic during this period?
-Oz
-Oz
timerover51
Deity
Oddly enough, Oz, the Swedes built a large fleet of oared fighting ships, including some resembling Galleases in the mid to late 1700s for operations in the Finnish archipelago at the entrance to the Gulf of Finland. During the period covered by the scenario, they really did not get into oared ships. There is some nice coverage of them in Bjorn Landstrom's The Ship, as he was Swedish and they are quite interesting from the standpoint of both naval architecture and special designs for meeting a perceived military need.
timerover51
Deity
@ Big Booper,
I was looking at TETurkhan's Test of Time scenario for other reasons, and in it he has two types of leaders and army units produced by those leaders. You might want to take a look at how he does it.
Based on that, you can have one type of leader for the Swedes, and another type of leader for the rest of the civilizations. If you give the Swedish leader and army the ability to move a bit faster, and load a few more units, along with some added hit points, that should give you the needed boost for the Swedes to more accurately simulate history.
Personally, I have no problem whatsoever taking advantage of the AI, but here is an idea for you with respect to leaders and armies. I checked in the Editor, and you can set units to be auto-produced up to every 100 turns. If you make a special Swedish Heroic Epic, maybe call it the Kalevala, as a nod to the Finns, and set it to produce a special Swedish leader every 50 turns, that would come close to putting Gustavus and Charles in the game at the right time, and also limit the number of special Swedish leaders.
The reason that I urge this is simply that with respect to Gustavus and Charles, you are looking at two of the greatest military leaders in history, members of that select group of what is called the "GREAT CAPTAINS". Gustavus is ranked with Alexander the Great, Hannibal, Julius Caesar, Frederick the Great, and Napoleon, while Major-General J.F.C. Fuller states: "Except for Alexander the Great, and possibly Charles XII, Frederick was the most offensively-minded of all of the Great Captains." You are dealing with two unique commanders here, and that should be reflected in the scenario.
The ships are fine, but the Bomb Ketch was not really used in the Baltic very much, and not in this period. They were used primarily in attacks against fortifications where it was not possible to land a force to attack from the land side. They were used a lot in the Mediterranean, especially in attacking the ports of the Barbary Corsairs, and by the British in the Napoleonic Wars, in attacking French ports and at Copenhagen, along with the use in attacking Fort McHenry during the War of 1812. If you do add them in, you might want to take a look at C.S. Forester's book, "Commodore Hornblower", where he gives a very good feel for how they could have been used. Forester was a very good naval historian of the Napoleonic Period.
I trust that I have not bored or buried you under a mound of information.
I was looking at TETurkhan's Test of Time scenario for other reasons, and in it he has two types of leaders and army units produced by those leaders. You might want to take a look at how he does it.
Based on that, you can have one type of leader for the Swedes, and another type of leader for the rest of the civilizations. If you give the Swedish leader and army the ability to move a bit faster, and load a few more units, along with some added hit points, that should give you the needed boost for the Swedes to more accurately simulate history.
Personally, I have no problem whatsoever taking advantage of the AI, but here is an idea for you with respect to leaders and armies. I checked in the Editor, and you can set units to be auto-produced up to every 100 turns. If you make a special Swedish Heroic Epic, maybe call it the Kalevala, as a nod to the Finns, and set it to produce a special Swedish leader every 50 turns, that would come close to putting Gustavus and Charles in the game at the right time, and also limit the number of special Swedish leaders.
The reason that I urge this is simply that with respect to Gustavus and Charles, you are looking at two of the greatest military leaders in history, members of that select group of what is called the "GREAT CAPTAINS". Gustavus is ranked with Alexander the Great, Hannibal, Julius Caesar, Frederick the Great, and Napoleon, while Major-General J.F.C. Fuller states: "Except for Alexander the Great, and possibly Charles XII, Frederick was the most offensively-minded of all of the Great Captains." You are dealing with two unique commanders here, and that should be reflected in the scenario.
The ships are fine, but the Bomb Ketch was not really used in the Baltic very much, and not in this period. They were used primarily in attacks against fortifications where it was not possible to land a force to attack from the land side. They were used a lot in the Mediterranean, especially in attacking the ports of the Barbary Corsairs, and by the British in the Napoleonic Wars, in attacking French ports and at Copenhagen, along with the use in attacking Fort McHenry during the War of 1812. If you do add them in, you might want to take a look at C.S. Forester's book, "Commodore Hornblower", where he gives a very good feel for how they could have been used. Forester was a very good naval historian of the Napoleonic Period.
I trust that I have not bored or buried you under a mound of information.
Big Bopper
Warlord
I'll take a look at how this is done.timerover51 said:
I definitely agree Gustav and Charles should be represented in some capacity and this may be the way to go.timerover51 said:
I wasn't sure about the bomb ketch, I'll take a bit more of a look into its background.
Not at all; Keep it up.timerover51 said:
Big Bopper
Warlord
I've started working on a new map after realizing I was not going to be able to expand the 'Scandinavia' map to my liking. This new map stretches from the British Isles to the Ural Mountains and from the Kola Peninsula to the Black Sea. With the new map I'll be adding 3 or 4 new civs; England, France, Scotland, Ireland?
Preview of Map
Preview of Map
Spoiler :
timerover51
Deity
France and England would be good, but Scotland is really questionable, and definitely not Ireland.
With respect to Scotland, Mary Queen of Scots was deposed in 1567, six years after your starting date, and fled to England. James VI was one year old at the time, and then the crowns of England and Scotland were unified under James VI, who became James I of England when Elizabeth died in 1603. While the Scots and the English still went at it at times, calling Scotland an independent power is probably not acceptable from an historical basis.
With respect to Ireland, England was nominally in control of it, although the Irish continued to resist English efforts to establish a firmer rule of the island. Oliver Cromwell worked very hard at subjugating it while ruling England under the Commonwealth, with some estimating that one-third of the population died or left during that period. Following the "Glorious Revolution of 1688" in England, King William following the Battle of the Boyne in 1690, established a much firmer control over the island. I would not recommend adding Ireland.
I would recommend adding the Ukraine as a separate country, as Charles XII formed an alliance with Mazeppa, the Hetman of the Ukraine, against Peter the Great, in 1708, and Russian and Polish control over the Ukraine in for much of the prior century had been extremely nominal. Think "Taras Bulba", if you remember that Yul Brynner movie.
Big Bopper
Warlord
I'm still deciding on the extent of the map and none of these countries may be represented. There are two possibilities; Northern Europe or North-Eastern Europe (w/o Britain or France). Also, the start date has changed to 1523, so that would give Scotland at least 40 years as a separate entity from England. Ireland is only a slim possibilitytimerover51 said:
The inclusion of the Ukraine has been dependent on the map and they will be in the scenario no matter the map I choose to use.timerover51 said:
