What questions to ask in a Nobles' Club poll

Note: the survey is up, and further discussion should take place in the new thread.

I'm planning to create a Surveymonkey poll about what edits are desirable/undesirable for Nobles' Club maps. I'm using SM because I need a rating for each, not just one answer on a multiple choice (which is the only kind I know how to do on CivFanatics directly). However, before posting the poll I need advice on what options to list -- enough to cover the common cases, but not so many that people avoid answering.

The primary question is which of the following edits are (highly/somewhat) x (desirable/undesirable) -- that is, four possible answers for each option. The idea is that

• something "highly desirable" should usually be done
• "somewhat desirable" is OK but can be left out often
• "somewhat undesirable" means usually avoid but allow if the mapmaker has some special purpose in mind
• "highly undesirable" means don't do it unless you have a really, really good reason.

I think this is not the place for discussing pros and cons of each edit; that's for the thread that announces the actual poll.

The options I've thought of so far, based on what I've often done recently (roughly the past 6-12 months if I recall correctly).

1. Ensure the player civ's Unique Unit's strategic resource (if any) is reasonably nearby.
2. Ensure fresh water adjacent to the starting location.
3. Ensure some hills in the Big Fat Cross.
4. Ensure at least 2 food sources in the Big Fat Cross.
5. Ensure each AI has some strategic resource so it isn't a pushover.
6. Ensure that aggressive AIs like Montezuma or Shaka, if present, aren't close to the player's starting location.
7. Ensure some resource appropriate to the starting techs is in the BFC (such as fish for a civ with Fishing).
8. Ensure that no AI has so much territory into which to expand unopposed that it runs away with the game at higher difficulties.

Somebody who doesn't like any edits would answer "highly undesirable" everywhere.

There might be edits I don't usually do that belong on the list, too, which is most of the reason for having this discussion thread.

I'd be willing to add one or two additional questions relevant to NC mapmaking, but don't want the thing to become too long. We've settled the huts/events issue; maybe ask about desired frequency again? (last poll on that was a couple of years ago IIRC). Maybe ask for the respondent's preferred difficulty level (can SM summarize answers by demographic information, or is that a "pro" feature?)

Any suggestions/comments? Any Surveymonkey experts who have advice on using its features?

I'm not advocating or disclaiming either of these, but two further possible questions:

9. Ensure an approximate balance between the number of warmonger, techer, and builder AIs.
10. Ensure that the player has sufficient room to peacefully expand to 6 cities.

My #9 could be paired with your #6, for those players who have no problem with an aggressive neighbor as part of the learning experience but don't want to be surrounded on all sides.

In the previous game, several edits were made to make a Keshik rush simpler. To determine whether or not this was popular, perhaps the following question (vel sim.) would be appropriate:

11. Ensure that the player is in a position to successfully utilize an early offensive UU.

Some of these issues (hillls, water) are already covered by the script for generating starting locations. I'm thinking that if you're adding a resource (such as an extra food) then you should remove a resource to balance it out.

edit: more radically I would suggest removing difficulties above noble. There are other threads (Sons of Monarchy, Immortal University, Deity Club etc) to cater for higher level games and reading how someone beat the map on emperor won't be a big help to someone still getting the hang of noble.

pigswill said:

edit: more radically I would suggest removing difficulties above noble. There are other threads (Sons of Monarchy, Immortal University, Deity Club etc) to cater for higher level games and reading how someone beat the map on emperor won't be a big help to someone still getting the hang of noble.

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I like this idea too, but it's not clear to me that participation levels will improve.

I'm not so sure that reading an Emperor level description, if it's at the right level of detail, is something a Noble doesn't learn from. And I really mean "not sure" -- I've learned a lot from reading various RPCs that are played well above my level, though probably not as much as I would if I were playing nearer to those levels myself. It might be worth adding a question, though: What's the max level save NC should provide? I think the Monarch save belongs there because Noble -> Monarch is a step we want NC to help people make.

Back when I started reading posts on this forum I was just a weak-ish Monarch player, and I definitely picked up quite a bit from looking at games posted by Emperor/Immortal/Deity players.

Strategy and tactics are highly difficulty-dependent; many important skills like city placement/order/specialization are far less so.

So you guys know, I'm going to be doing the map for the next game (Mehmed), so I'll be checking back into this thread periodically to see what you guys like/don't like with an eye towards implementing suggestions. Is there a map script anyone wants to see? I'm thinking a straightforward Pangaea or Continents/Hemispheres type map may be in order. Then again, we did just have that with Lincoln and Gilgamesh.

NC games don't need to be balance towards Emperor+.
They shouldn't be too easy though.

I think dalamb did right after we "teached him a bit", so he just needs to teach new generation of mapmakers a bit and it will be fine. Don't see the need for the massive influx of polls ;-).

I feel a map that pleases everyone at all times can't be made. But rather than asking what edits are 'desirable', the better questions to ask are 'what helps a player learn the game?'

Tilting the map to make the game revolve around the Civ's unique unit is not going to help players learn to play a leader like Suryavarman II. (Who is a solid leader, his UU is just not available in every map type as Ivory isn't guaranteed to spawn nearby. Might not even be on the same continent in Hemisphere type maps.)

So, what I would like to see is Copper available in reasonable distance to the start to handle barbs and leave the UU resources (Horses, Ivory and Iron) upto the map. If it gives it to us, awesome! If not, well, we will learn how to win in-spite of the map. Not due to it. And that, I feel should be Nobles' club aim.

Regardless, NC has been a blast for me and I learnt a lot from the games and hope to see the series continue. Thank you to Dalamb and everyone else who has made this possible.

P.S. @ Oz-man. I am not sure if this only happens in my games, but I think maps with lots of forests should be avoided. In my Genghis Khan game, the AI didn't have Aesthetics or Code of Laws even into 1100 ADs (and the subsequent techs too like Paper, Civil Service, etc.) In hind-sight, I am tempted to blame that on the forests that map had in abundance, as the AI got around to chopping them far too late to develop the land underneath. It may be an aberration that I experienced, but I thought worth noting, just the same.

I recently got civ iv and played 4 NC games (hope to do current one if wife let's me when get home)...playing these with feedback and seeing what others do helped me go from no real chance at noble to beating noble, and hanging with monarch.

My goal out of these games is to get up to monarch but also to be able to load any game, any settings...and be competitive. I've read a lot of games and watched "let's play", and I don't like when people reload the map until eg two gold tiles in capital.

I think some of the veterans' advice to me has been "play the map". It has been powerful advice. I think the NC should aim to teach that, and we will learn more by playing maps that are not completely awesome (like the Napoleon NC I just played).

So I'd be in favor of overall less modding, and I agree w smilingrogue's post here and revent's in the precursor thread. I think ensuring AI is not a pushover (#5) and there are no runaway AI (#8) are useful, however I would learn from the rest (no fresh water, no copper, no UU resource, and dealing with Shaka, etc). That being said I have enjoyed the NC series and will continue to play them; thanks for hosting these.

vranasm said:

NC games don't need to be balance towards Emperor+.
They shouldn't be too easy though.

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Hmm. I think I need a question or two aimed at Emperor+ players to see what might attract them to comment on the noble players' games, which seems to me to require that they have to be attracted to actually play the games. Any suggestions for what an appropriate question migh be? Or folks could just discuss that issue in this thread.

Don't see the need for the massive influx of polls ;-).

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I think it can't hurt. Folks can ignore the poll if they don't care, and I personally get to learn how to use SurveyMonkey.

dalamb said:

Hmm. I think I need a question or two aimed at Emperor+ players to see what might attract them to comment on the noble players' games, which seems to me to require that they have to be attracted to actually play the games. Any suggestions for what an appropriate question migh be? Or folks could just discuss that issue in this thread.I think it can't hurt. Folks can ignore the poll if they don't care, and I personally get to learn how to use SurveyMonkey.

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I guess combination of leader, map type and starting position and of course time/mood to actually play civ ;-).

a lot of high level players could already fulfill they desire regarding learning the game.

The poll is ok, dalamb. I think it unnecessary, but it won't hurt either. I think the concept of Nobles Club and the issue at hand are pretty simple though. Don't cook the maps. I see no reason why a game on Noble Level needs to be easier. Roll a map that you like and play on. I'm fine with balancing leaders and using the odd map here or there, but map edits should be very very minimal to none.

As for comments about not opening the game up to higher level players, I vehemently disagree, and I'm surprised by VoU's advocacy of it. The ability to play a new (uncooked) map entices collaboration from more experienced players which is invaluable to the new guys. I really enjoy helping new players one on one with their games, but would probably ignore NC altogether if I didn't actually play the games - and I'm not going to play the game on Noble. I know reviewing the game of experienced players playing high levels helped me out immensely long ago when I was an NC nooble. Deity probably doesn't help much since the concepts and tactics get very advanced at that point, but it doesn't hurt either. AZ plays NC games a lot.

lymond said:

I think the concept of Nobles Club and the issue at hand are pretty simple though. Don't cook the maps. I see no reason why a game on Noble Level needs to be easier. Roll a map that you like and play on. I'm fine with balancing leaders and using the odd map here or there, but map edits should be very very minimal to none.

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Absolutely 100% spot on.

If you're going to put checks on the map, here's some things that might affect the game:

prevent AI from being easily warrior rushable. Being on a hill/across a river, having an archer UU, having too much culture, and being too far all accomplish this.
Isolation/semi-isolation, makes you play differently.
Allow multiple game plans, whether it be having a resource nearby for wonders, a rushable AI, some commerce resources nearby, enough land.
Alternatively, restrict overly popular game plans, keeping wonder resources a little further away.
No archipelagos?
Keep 1 or 2 religious blocks nearby, to encourage proper player diplomacy.

I wouldn't say any of this is necessary, and even might be too meddlesome, but those are the games that would help people improve the most.

As a newer mapmaker, I do appreciate this thread. It's one thing to enjoy this series and another to try to make a map for it, it's good to get a feel for what people want - thanks for the input!

It's already been mentioned but I would like a question about what mapscripts to start with. I find we do Pangea a lot, and that's my favorite too, but I like to switch it up with the occasional watery map or even a totally unrealistic or theme map. Judging from recent experiences I may be in the minority maybe NC isn't the place for this type of map, but I mean one in ten or something... sounds fun to me!

I would caution against excluding players of any level. I think the NC series is the most popular because it's somewhere everyone is welcome. Personally, I got into the series after watching AZ's Deity videos of the NC maps. It really helped me learn because I could play along with or after watching to see what I could have, or should have done.

Herodotus Rex said:

As a newer mapmaker, I do appreciate this thread. It's one thing to enjoy this series and another to try to make a map for it, it's good to get a feel for what people want - thanks for the input!

It's already been mentioned but I would like a question about what mapscripts to start with. I find we do Pangea a lot, and that's my favorite too, but I like to switch it up with the occasional watery map or even a totally unrealistic or theme map. Judging from recent experiences I may be in the minority maybe NC isn't the place for this type of map, but I mean one in ten or something... sounds fun to me!

I would caution against excluding players of any level. I think the NC series is the most popular because it's somewhere everyone is welcome. Personally, I got into the series after watching AZ's Deity videos of the NC maps. It really helped me learn because I could play along with or after watching to see what I could have, or should have done.

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I think dalamb started map types rotation similar to leaders rotation... we should continue with this...except the dumb ones being rare and pangea/continents/archipelago being more common

Rotations are 5-6 leaders so as to have all 11 traits, and I decided to pick one "unusual" map type per rotation. So 4-5 per rotation are (big/medium)&small, pangaea, continents, terra/earth2, with 1 lakes, inland sea, or other less usual map type. Some people consider archipelago normal, others consider it something that ought to be rare.

Although I agree Archi maps should not be played often, I think they should certainly be played. More than any map, it focuses more on food and slavery, and less on cottages. Trade route income is very important. These are good skills for newer players to pickup and they do translate to other maps.

It sounds like Archipelago might be a popular choice for an upcoming map. The big issue is that the next leader is Mehmed, who doesn't immediately come to mind with that sort of map script. On the other hand, Nobles' Club tends to run Archipelago maps with leaders commonly associated with wet starts (Joao, Willem, Roosevelt, etc.). Would a run with somebody like Mehmed be a possibility, or should I "play it safe" with a Pangaea or Continents/Hemispheres type map?