Bismark enters the industrial at turn 144 at immortal? Anomaly or normal?

I just encountered the strangest thing on an Immortal Large Pangea map (standard speed). AS it says in the title, Bismark entered the industrial era at turn 144.

Is this the new norm for immortal? Pre-patch deity speed tech rates? I'm not complaining, I'm just wondering and trying to get a finger on the new balance levels, so I can plan accordiginly. Right now no single immortal game has been like another, for me.

I've only had time to play a couple of games post patch. My firstdidn't seem any different from pre-patch play. AI teched at the same rate. There was significant unit spawn but it didn't bother me as I was playing a peaceful game and off in a remote uncontestic part of the map. I launched around turn 280 and the AI was miles behind me in the tech race. Immortal ddin't seem any different to what it had been.

In my second game the tech rate didn't seem any different either. Though I abandoned it around turn turn 140 due to bad expansion decisions so I can't be sure - when I got education at turn 115, I had 22 techs, and the fastest AI civ had 26, so it seems like the usual immortal game.

Then I start up this game and when I'm hitting education around turn 120 both Bismark and Persia are entering the Rennasissance (which felt more usual for Deity games than pre patch immortal), and, wham blam 25 turns later Bismark (who is a large runaway already) is in Industrial.

What are other players experiencing regards tech rates at immortal? IS industrial era by turn 145 usual (ie, the pre-patch deity speed), or is it an anomlay. I'm curious.

Don't know if this is actually strategy or in fact general discussion, but it sort of is a strategic issue, so I'll post here.

Thanks.

Was he a runaway? Science is tied to population, so if he dominated 2/3rd's of the map, he may have had higher than normal tech rate

That's definitely sooner than normal, but Germany is deadly if they are allowed to run loose, which it sounds like there were.

I've been finding that they are pretty much the scariest civ out there if they are allowed to settle their two billion cities and then capture another few zillion more.

I'd dare to say that the AI is more focused on Immortal+ now too.

I just finished an MP team game with myself and a friend vs. some AI teams, and other than one AI, we were all very close in tech.
AI beat us to winning by two turns, but most impressively, they very smartly beelined the appropriate techs for the spaceships parts and then got the parts done in a hurry, no dicking around like i am used to.
Might have been a team thing (since each member of the team can build parts), but it was actually rather impressive to see, since they were pretty much only one tech ahead of us the whole end game, and with us bulbing techs, i think they must have bulbed some as well.

What tech did he enter with? If he prioritized Banking to begin with, which he often does since he loves FP, Industrialization takes only 3 more techs, so it's not that abnormal. I've never seen AI prioritizing Fertilizer, so I assume this was his path. A bit earlier than I'd expect AI to hit industrial, but doesn't mean he's that much ahead. It'll be interesting to look at demographics.

The Pilgrim said:

What tech did he enter with? If he prioritized Banking to begin with, which he often does since he loves FP, Industrialization takes only 3 more techs, so it's not that abnormal. I've never seen AI prioritizing Fertilizer, so I assume this was his path. A bit earlier than I'd expect AI to hit industrial, but doesn't mean he's that much ahead. It'll be interesting to look at demographics.

Click to expand...

TBH I can't tell - I haven't gor infoaddict loaded up on this game, so I've no idea of his bpt, or tech lead etc.

When I'm tech stealing I've found that nearly all AI's go for the right side of the tree. Until yesterday. I was able to steal compass off Bismark and Astronomy off DArius. And spies told me Dairus is building the Forbidden Palace, so he went for banking.
No idea what Bismark has. Spies didn't tell me about any wonders.

He's the largest civ in the game and right on my border. I'd been planning on trimming him down once I reached longbowmen in 5 turns, but I guess I won't be attempting that.... Longbows against great war infantry or gattlings isn't too wise, especially with the serious unit spam heno doubt has.

I have to laugh and eat my words. On a couple of other therads on this forum I've been moaning that immortal is no more difficult than it ever was, and that post patch I could beat it with the same ease I could pre-patch. First game, yes. Since then, I've been caught out each time....

Can't decide whether to abandon this one or stick with it. My starting placements are a little sucky, and I'd stuck with them because it was immortal and I'd been underestimating the AI.

Hmm. Immortal is looking intresting.

You can tell which tech they entered eras with as it should be a wee bit cheaper in beakers to acquire it.
AFAIK anyway; someone can correct me if that's wrong.

Greasy Dave, do you mind to post your last save? I'm curious.

The Pilgrim said:

Greasy Dave, do you mind to post your last save? I'm curious.

Click to expand...

Sure, here it is.

Actually, looks like he entered with Acoustics, which is pretty impressive. And explainable.

Damn that is ridiculous. Is that 11 cities I count by T100?

Matthew. said:

Damn that is ridiculous. Is that 11 cities I count by T100?

Click to expand...

It looks more like he has been designated as "Runaway Champion" in that particurlar game - notice how the other civs are just normal or Emperor-sized?

Also lol at Nappy being sandwiched by aggro civs

Yeah that one just north was probably one of France's originals, with Monty taking an early city. It could be that one west of Germany's is also a France original, with Napoleon, being the douche that he is, triggered a joint war at the start, but it also looks like it is placed at exactly 4 tiles apart much like the AI loves to do when spamming cities.

I suppose I could just open the save file, but what is the fun in that

Matthew. said:

Yeah that one just north was probably one of France's originals, with Monty taking an early city. It could be that one west of Germany's is also a France original, with Napoleon, being the douche that he is, triggered a joint war at the start, but it also looks like it is placed at exactly 4 tiles apart much like the AI loves to do when spamming cities.

I suppose I could just open the save file, but what is the fun in that

Click to expand...

If I remember right, the one just North is a Monty original not a Nap. Can't remember who declared on who, but I have a feeling it was Bismark on Napoleon. He took one of his cities and then gobbled up a couple of CS's. By turn 144, it's even crazier, he's settled right up to England's border. Berlin is size 18. The other cities on average are about size 8 if I remember right. China has moved NOrth and taken Monty down to two cities. MOnty is probably soon to be toast.

I have to laugh actually. I was moaning that immortal was too easy so decided to experiment with different tactics and give myself a challenge. I was trying out settling coastal cities and using harbours not roads for trade routes, supported by God of the Sea. As a strategy I've discovered it sucks fairly heftily because the harbours come too late for decent GPT and you end up with a long straggly domain which is difficult to defend because of lack of roads. PLus you have to make a fistful of workboats.

I've been getting away with it defensively because there's a huge mountain range between me and Bismark, practically running the length of the continent, East West. At a normal paced immortal game I'd still be able to get my GPT up and running and get a win. Where I stand now, up against Bismark, I think I'm facing a real challenge. God, Immortal sucks...it's just sooo easy.

Greasy Dave said:

I have to laugh actually. I was moaning that immortal was too easy so decided to experiment with different tactics and give myself a challenge. I was trying out settling coastal cities and using harbours not roads for trade routes, supported by God of the Sea. As a strategy I've discovered it sucks fairly heftily because the harbours come too late for decent GPT and you end up with a long straggly domain which is difficult to defend because of lack of roads. PLus you have to make a fistful of workboats.

Click to expand...

Thats a Carthage approach.

FWIW - I had a super size coastal city (25+) with one trade parter city going last night on immortal, was pulling in 125+gpt before a banks around t140. Ended up resigning, but was able to build/rush buy 8 frigates and took out Hiawatha cap even though he was at 70 defense.

You get up around 150 or 200 GPT by the mid renaissance and you can do quite a bit of damage.

Matthew. said:

Damn that is ridiculous. Is that 11 cities I count by T100?

Click to expand...

Nah. Only 10.

Greasy Dave said:

I have to laugh actually. I was moaning that immortal was too easy so decided to experiment with different tactics and give myself a challenge.

Click to expand...

Mission accomplished! As crazy as it looks, on immortal this kind of running away is still manageable. Human player can easily have a higher bpt than that on 145. There is plenty of room to expand, the Aztecs, China and France could have been a nice additions to glorious English empire. On the other side, and I do agree with you here, you can't get too creative. The path to success is pretty narrow. Religion and a little better diplomacy allow some degree of creativity, but not too much. It's nice indeed to see Napoleon being a pushover, though.

The narrow line makes me not want to play immortal.

budweiser said:

The narrow line makes me not want to play immortal.

Click to expand...

I find it frustrating post-patch, though admittedly it's been on pretty much on Pangeas only, which tends to be much tougher.

Unfortunately Emperor is generally much too easy, and i've won long before the game is over usually.

[On immortal] I just cannot stand being forced into never-ending early war due to their infinite unit spam if i have a lot of neighbors.

I think a lot of it depends on the science flavor of the civ. If you get a high science preference(with the randomness factor) and a runaway, yeah, you can have ridiculously early times. I've noticed on Deity that Sejong ALWAYS beelines to the Industrial and gets there super early(I saw late-120ish one time and crapped my pants), and America often does the same thing. In theory Babylon could too but the AI is so bad at playing Babylon that it's shameful . The funnier thing is when a Civ gets to the Renaissance before turn 100, that's when I know the game is going to be nuts. 144 Industrial is about normal for Deity so I'd assume being on pace for 1 difficulty level higher is certainly out of the ordinary.

ense7en said:

I find it frustrating post-patch, though admittedly it's been on pretty much on Pangeas only, which tends to be much tougher.

Unfortunately Emperor is generally much too easy, and i've won long before the game is over usually.

[On immortal] I just cannot stand being forced into never-ending early war due to their infinite unit spam if i have a lot of neighbors.

Click to expand...

Yeah, I've heard it's become a lot rougher. I'm doing a tutorial stream for some of my friends this week and I was going to make some example saves on Immortal because I figured it would be more manageable for setting up specific strategies(because the higher you go in difficulty the more likely the map is to say "yeah no" to your strategy, plus my friends aren't as screwed in the head as I am so they'll never want to go above Immortal anyway ). My memories of Immortal was basically being like Deity for the first 100 turns and then the AI kinda fell asleep.

I guess we'll find out!

Light Cleric said:

I've noticed on Deity that Sejong ALWAYS beelines to the Industrial and gets there super early(I saw late-120ish one time and crapped my pants), and America often does the same thing. In theory Babylon could too but the AI is so bad at playing Babylon that it's shameful .

Click to expand...

Sejong is always dead last in my games. No matter whether it's immortal or deity. And so is Nabby. And every other leader with low expansion flavor. At first I was all happy to have them on the map, since I assumed we would be best RA buddies. Didn't work out. No matter how science-oriented they are, that just can't compete with enormous population expansionists have.

Light Cleric said:

I'm doing a tutorial stream for some of my friends this week

Click to expand...

Let us know when, please. I'm so out of things to watch, I have to play myself! And I'm too sick and too lazy to do that.

Light Cleric said:

My memories of Immortal was basically being like Deity for the first 100 turns and then the AI kinda fell asleep.

Click to expand...

Yeah, my impression as well. It's almost like after turn 100 immortal AI recognizes the fact it can't win and give up when on deity it will put up a fight for at least another 50 or more often 100 turns. But again, once you catch up in science, it's your game to lose. However getting to this point on deity became harder for me.

Sejong, really? But I suppose it has been a very long time since I've played in the Deity range, not to mention all the patches and such since then. I do remember a number of games where he has more than doubled the science rate of anyone else, including me.

Babylon always plays poorly

It does seem like higher difficulties caters to the heavy expansionists. Not necessarily war-monger, just expansionist. The ability to ICS without happiness penalty seems to be too much to keep up with, even for supposed Science-based Civs like Sejong.