New civs in RFCE

AbsintheRed · Jan 12, 2013

The 8 civs that seriously came up for being included in the next version are:
Crimea, Morocco, Tunesia, Novgorod, Teutonic Order/Prussia, Aragon, Scotland, Egypt

I'm not yet sure how much will make it into 1.2, but definitely all of them will be included in 2.0
So there is no doubt that these suggestions will be helpful

In the end I would like to see much more detail on these civs, more or less a full concept
Starting date, icons and flags, leaders with LH art suggestions, UHVs, UPs, UUs, UBs, how would other civs have to be changed, etc
Even suggestions for dynamic civ names, dawn of men texts, or civ specific GP names are very welcomed
RFCE++ is a great place to start of course, but far from enough
Contribute if you have any small detail in mind!

So, let's the discussions begin, and build a sketch for all these civs!
Will keep this post updated with the best suggestions for each civ

alpav · Jan 12, 2013

No Serbia?

I'd be willing to post an outline for them if they're gonna be included.

iOnlySignIn · Jan 12, 2013

Features from RFCE++ that should definitely be kept IMO are:

- Crimean UP. Very unique and fun mechanism, also historically realistic.

- Prussia's starting units (Teutonic Knights and Masters). It's what makes Prussia unique and fun.

- Morocco/Egypt UP. Both are necessary without significantly changing the map. They lack food otherwise.

Features from RFCE++ that should be changed IMO are:

- Scottish UP. Not very useful at all, even for the AI. I'd much prefer my "Power of Highlands", i.e. improved Yield from Moorland tiles/Pastures. That will solve some of their food problems.

- Novgorod UP. Underwhelming, because it doesn't synergize with the expansion goal and because Civil Service is a very early tech (compared to Shipbuilding, for Venice). It should be buffed with an additional food & happiness bonus. I suggest +25% :food:

and +2

in capital.

- Egyptian UU. Overpowered. Mamluk cavalry were no match for Janissaries historically, but in RFCE++ Mamluks are pretty much invincible (same as Paladins, really - I nerf Paladins in all RFCE games I play, even when I'm Burgundy). Either give it a penalty vs. Gunpowder units (as it is in SoI), or buff Janissaries.

Personally, I buff Janissaries to have +40% vs Heavy Cavalry, Archery, and Heavy Infantry instead of the 2 First Strikes. This might appear overpowered, but for the fact that Janissaries always start at 0 experience (and hence, several Promotions behind regular troops). Janissaries are supposed to be elite troops. They are not in their current version.

iOnlySignIn · Jan 12, 2013

UP (Cameralism):
No Stability from Anarchy, and +15 Free Units (units that don't have support cost).

Theocracy bonus can be replaced by a combination of hidden production modifiers (in RFCEBalance.py) and more starting units (Teutonic Knights) with Promotions.

UB (Public School):
Add 1~2 free Specialists. The +25% GP rate is not very useful due to how late this UB comes (Scientific Method) - perhaps it can be removed. Needs testing.

UU (Death's Head Hussar):
Change to 14 Strength (down from 15) but starts with March. And 50% withdrawal rate instead of 40%. 15 Strength Death's Head Hussar is awesome, but it makes every other unit redundant, which is not very realistic IMO.

UHVs:
- The Northern Crusades:
Make sure Catholicism is the only religion in every city in Lithuania, Livonia, Estonia, and Pomerania in 1410.

Instead of controlling those regions directly, this variant of the UHV allows for more diverse strategies (e.g. Vassalization, diplomacy, straight up razing everything).

Meanwhile, Estonia should be removed from the Prussian Stability Map, but Silesia should be added to it. Silesia should also be buffed significantly with more resources to make it a hotly contested area between Prussia and Austria.

- Enlightened Despotism:
Lower the GP count required to 10 or 12, but excludes Great Generals. Great Generals are better used when attached to units, especially with the Death's Head Hussar starting with March. They're also a bit too easy to get for the Human player.

Also, I'd rather the GPs are not required to be settled in the Capital, because (1) your starting Capital is not Berlin and (2) you should settle your GPs in your best cities anyway, but not necessarily your capital.

- Seven Year's War:
I don't like the "take two cities from" requirement because it often requires me to invade Iberia.

Instead, I think this UHV should be changed to:
Become more Powerful than Austria, Muscovy, Germany, Sweden, France and Spain combined. Dunno if that's doable, will test. Perhaps Spain can be removed from the list.

AbsintheRed · Jan 12, 2013

alpav said:
No Serbia?
I'd be willing to post an outline for them if they're gonna be included.

They will probably make it for 2.0
So you can - or should - post about them too

alpav · Jan 13, 2013

UP - Power of Zakonopravilo, half anarchy during civic switch, +25% GA Length
UU - Vlastela - -1 strength 30% city attack, replaces age-appropriate heavy cavalry ( is it knights or the one before?)
UB - Hram - 1 free priest, replaces library

UHVs -St. Sava's Legacy- Build (x) Orthodox Buildings (incl. Hram) in (y)
-Battle of Kosovo- Do not allow the turks in Europe
-Tsardom of Serbs and Greeks- Control Greece (all provinces in the region), Serbia (No Vojvodina), and Epirus in (x)

DoM - It is the year 1180 AD. The Kingdom of Serbia has been established with the Nemanjic dynasty but it is still new to the throne and in its infancy. St. Sava inspires the people. The Kingdom envisions all of the Balkans under its rule but first it will have to prove itself against its expansionist neighbors. To the north lies the powerful Catholic Hungarian Empire while to the east and south lie the mighty Bulgarians and Byzantines. Christianity does not stop them from fighting. However all of these civilizations will only be a test for the still to come Ottoman Empire.

merijn_v1 · Jan 14, 2013

@ Absinthered

It's pretty certain that some new civs will be added. Do you want to add them alltogether? Or do you want to include them 1 by 1. Or in small bunches?

I'm trying to make a start for some civs by preparing the XML. If you want to include them alltogether it doesn't really care which one to start with, but if you are including them seperately, I would like to know which civs will come first, so I can start with those first.

Spoiler :

AbsintheRed · Jan 14, 2013

merijn_v1 said:
@ Absinthered

It's pretty certain that some new civs will be added. Do you want to add them alltogether? Or do you want to include them 1 by 1. Or in small bunches?

I'm not yet certain
I would really like to have a clearer picture about these civs before deciding anything
How would they be integrated into the current phase of RFCE...

So instead of the xml changes could you post all the info about them from ++? (I don't have it installed ATM)
In this thread, as a base for discussions
Hopefully it will boost the conversation about all the civs

merijn_v1 · Jan 15, 2013

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=11052009&postcount=3

Most of the general info is found here. Only the exact info about UU and UB aren't in it.

The Lombard Kingdom - start in 568 AD
Leader: Rothari
The Power of Commercial Centers: Trade routes also give some food.
UU: Urban Militia - the core of the Lombard League's armies, that formed the Company of Death and defeated the Emperor at Legnano.
UB: Studio - Representing the patronage of the Italian Renaissance, an early theatre with a free Artist.
UHV's:
The Lombard Kingdom: Control Lombardy, Tuscany, Liguria, Verona, Calabria and Apulia in 774.
The Lombard League: Destroy 25 units from the Holy Roman Emperor by 1250, or be the only nation in the HRE at that date.
The Italic League: Ensure that each of Lombardy, Venice, and Genoa are more powerful than each of Austria and Spain in 1494.

The Republic of Novgorod - start in 864 AD
Leaders: Rurik, Alexander Nevsky, Marfa Posadnitsa
The Power of the Lord City: Start with Bureaucracy
UU: Ushkuinik - the "Russian Vikings", amphibious Maceman with extra city attack.
UB: Konets - the first guilds of Europe, a supercharged Guild Hall with extra unhealth.
UHV's:
Defender of Rus': Control Novgorod, Finland and Estonia in 1250.
The Fur Trade: Gain access to ten sources of fur by 1397.
The Great Hinterlands: Have five cities in Karelia, Rostov, and Vologda in 1478.

The Kingdom of Norway - start in 872 AD
Leaders: Harald Hardraada, Hakon iV
The Power of the Whale-Road: All naval units can enter ocean tiles.
UU: Berserker - Sacred pagan warriors, the terror of the early middle ages.
UB: Trading Post - Improves trade and ship speed, useful for maintaining a wide-flung kingdom.
UHV's:
Vikings: Gain 50 Viking points by 1066AD. You gain points from conquering cities (+1pt per population), pillaging improvements (+1pt) and sinking ships (+2pt).
Conquerors: Conquer the Isles, Ireland, Mercia, Normandy, Iceland and build Vinland by 1263AD.
Statesmen: Have higher score than Sweden, Denmark, Scotland, England, Germany and France in 1320AD.

The Kingdom of Denmark - start in 936 AD
Leaders: Harald Bluetooth, Christian IV
The Power of Sound Dues: You get 3 gold per turn for every foreign coastal city in the Baltic.
UU: Huskarl - the elite guard and standing army of Canute the great, they can destroy any contemporary infantry.
UB: Research Institute - Denmark created the first research institutes of Europe in the 16th century, gathering enormous volumes of research data.
UHV's:
North Sea Empire: Control Denmark, Skaneland, Svealand, Vestfold and Mercia in 1050.
Valdemar the Victorious: Have two cities in each of Brandenburg, Estonia and Pomerania by 1223.
Kalmar Union: Control Denmark, Norway, Vestfold, Jamtland, Skaneland, Gotaland, Svealand, Norrland, Gotland, Finland, Estonia and Iceland in 1523.

The Kingdom of Scotland - start in 960 AD
Leader: Robert the Bruce
The Power of Defiance: Lower stability penalty for losing cities and whenever you do, your other cities get free defenders.
UU: Sheltron - the ultimate anti-cavalry formation, but it's inflexibility makes it somewhat weak against everything else.
UB: Shieling - a system of transferring livestock with the seasons to keep them on good grazing grounds. A smokehouse replacement with extra bonuses for Sheep.
UHV's:
Fortification: Have 10 Forts and 3 Castles in 1296.
The Auld Alliance: Have 1000 Attitude points with France by 1560. You get points for good relations, open borders, exports, imports, and common wars.
The Celtic Union: Control Scotland, the Isles, Ireland, Wales and Bretagne in 1700.

The Egyptians - start in 972 AD
Leaders: Saladin, Baibars
The Power of the Nile: River tiles have +1 food.
UU: Mamluk - "Slave-noble" cavalry, the first force to ever defeat the Mongols in an open battle.
UB: Souk - an open seasonal market, improves health and commerce with the right goods.
UHV's:
Crusaders come, Crusaders go: Control Egypt, Arabia, Jerusalem, Lebanon, Syria, Antiochia and Cyprus in 1291.
Mongols come, Mongols go: Kill 50 Keshiks by 1450.
Egypt is eternal: Control 15 world wonders by 1700.

The Moroccans - start in 1040 AD
Leaders: Yaqub al-Mansur, Ismail Ibn Sharif
The Power of Saharan Trade: Deserts are 1h1c, oases have triple value
UU: Black Guard - Brutally efficient sub-Saharan elite troops, with no loyalties but to the King himself.
UB: Kasbah - A city wall replacement that adds some food to the city, promoting growth in the difficult environment.
UHV's:
The Almohads: Control Morocco, Marrakesh, Tetouan, Sijilmasa, Aoudaghost, Oran, Algiers, Ifriqiya, Tripolitania, Andalusia, and Valencia in 1212AD.
The Marinids: Have 5000 culture in each of three cities in 1465AD.
The Saadis: Collapse or vassalize Portugal, Spain, and Aragon by 1578AD.

The Sultanate of Rûm - start in 1077 AD
Leader: Kayqubad I
UU: Turcoman Horse Archer - flexible and skillful horse archers, they are able to use the terrain to their advantage.
UB: Han - a safe stopping area for caravans, it is an Inn replacement with an extra trade route that does not require a brewery.
UHV's:
The Pride of Islam: Control Anatolikon, Armeniakon, Charsiadon, Cilicia, Paphlagonia and Crimea in 1225.
Caravanserai:Build eight Hans by 1328.
Pax Anatolica: Control Anatolikon, Armeniakon, Charsiadon, Colonea, Cilicia, Paphlagonia, Thrakesion, Antiochia, Opsikion and Constantinople in 1453.

The Kingdom of Bohemia - start in 1085 AD
Leader: Ottokar II
The Power of Kingdom: You have more votes in the HRE and other Emperors' decisions affect you less.
UU: War Wagon - the famed Wagenburg or vozová hradba of the Hussites, it is supremely strong out in the open.
UB: Orloj - Bohemia is home to some of the world's oldest astronomical clocks. These mechanical wonders give you an extra production boost.
UHV's:
The Iron and Golden King - Control Bohemia, Moravia, Silesia, Austria and Carinthia in 1271.
The Iron and Golden Crown - Become Holy Roman Emperor by 1400.
The Bohemian Revolt - Have a larger population than any HRE state in 1648.

The Crown of Aragon - start in 1164 AD
Leader: James I
The Power of Confederation: Extra commerce in your capital for every province you have a city in.
UU: Almogavar - Legionary-style conquerors, a stronger Guisarmier with first strikes.
UB: Seaport - A massive increase in shipping capabilities, a lighthouse that increases the transport capabilities of every ship built.
UHV's:
The Sicilian Vespers: Control Catalonia, Valencia, Baleares and Sicily in 1282AD.
Thalassocracy: Have 25 ships in 1444AD.
Realms of the Crown: Control Catalonia, Valencia, Aragon, Baleares, Corsica, Sardinia, Sicily, Apulia, Provence and Thessaly in 1474AD.

The Kingdom of Serbia - start in 1180 AD
Leaders: Stefan Dusan
The Power of Law: Your culture dominates other's within your cities' radius.
UU: Vlastela - noble "imitation cataphract", especially strong at taking cities.
UB: Orthodox Hram - a temple of the independent Serbian Church, giving extra faith points as well as a free priest.
UHV's:
Zakonopravilo: Get 20 stability by 1354.
Emperor of Serbs and Greeks: Control Serbia, Macedonia, Arberia, Thessaloniki, Epirus and Thessaly in 1371.
Triumph in Kosovo: Have more military units than the Ottomans in 1540.

The Kingdom of Sweden - start in 1210 AD
Leaders: Magnus Ladulås, Gustav I, Karl XII
The Power of Military Formation: All units start with Formation promotion.
UU: Karolin - the most formidable force in Europe at the time, highly drilled and fanatically religious.
UB: Soldattorp - part of the national military allotment system, this allowed Sweden to raise enormous forces very quickly.
UHV's:
The Eastern Lands: Have six cities in Norrland, Finland and Karelia in 1323.
Lion of the North: Raze 5 Catholic cities while being Protestant by 1660.
Dominium Maris Baltici: Control every coastal city on the Baltic in 1750.

The Teutonic Order/Duchy of Prussia - start in 1224 AD
Leaders: Hermann von Salza and Frederick the Great
The Power of Cameralism: Start in Theocracy and no instability from anarchy.
UU: Death's Head Hussar - the feared elite light cavalry of Frederick the Great, a stronger Hussar.
UB: Public School - The first modern school system, it brings both stability and enlightenment among the population.
UHV's:
The Northern Crusades: Control Lithuania, Livonia, Estonia, and Pomerania in 1410AD.
Seven Years' War: Collapse or conquer two cities from each of Austria, Muscovy, Germany, Sweden, France and Spain between 1650AD and 1763AD.
Enlightened Despotism: Settle a total of 15 Great People in any combination, including Great Generals, in your capital.

The Tunisians - start in 1229 AD
Leader: Uthman
The Power of Barbary Corsairs: Piracy (blockading ports that you are at peace with) gives triple gold.
UU: Corsair - a slightly weaker, but much earlier and cheaper version of the Privateer.
UB: Bagnio - the "slave prisons", where those who were abducted would be held in wait for ransom or selling. A dungeon replacement that gives free citizen specialists.
UHV's:
The Barbary Coast: Have 12 coastal cities in Oran, Algiers, Ifriqiya, Tripolitania and Cyrenaica in 1492AD.
The Abductions: Control Malta, Iceland, Ireland, Sicily and Sardinia in 1650AD.
Terror of the Mediterranean: Get 10000 gold from piracy by 1750AD.

The Crimean Khanate - start in 1441 AD
Leader: Devlet I Giray
The Power of Iasyri: Razing cities gives less instability and a free citizen in your capital.
UU: Chambul - the basic unit of Crimean raiding parties, an early, gunpowderless Pistolier with extra mobility.
UB: Subject Horde - the sedentary Crimeans held several nomadic hordes in vassalage that provided them with soldiers. A Guild Hall with raw production instead of free engineer, and no unhealth.
UHV's:
Seizer of the Throne: Capture or Raze Moscow by 1571AD.
Harvesting the Steppe: Raze 20 cities.
The Last of the Hordes: Have no more than 5 cities until 1699AD.

merijn_v1 · Jan 18, 2013

As no real start to the discussion is make, I'll do it. I'll only discuss the 8 civs that are currenly most likely to be inlcuded.
I'll base my ideas on the existing ideas of RFCE++. Most of it are good enough to be brought strait into RFCE. But that doesn't mean we should literally copy-paste all.

The Republic of Novgorod - start in 864 AD
Leaders: Rurik, Alexander Nevsky, Marfa Posadnitsa
The Power of the Lord City: Start with Bureaucracy
UU: Ushkuinik - the "Russian Vikings", amphibious Maceman with extra city attack.
UB: Konets - the first guilds of Europe, a supercharged Guild Hall with extra unhealth.
UHV's:
Defender of Rus': Control Novgorod, Finland and Estonia in 1250.
The Fur Trade: Gain access to ten sources of fur by 1397.
The Great Hinterlands: Have five cities in Karelia, Rostov, and Vologda in 1478.

In general, I like it. Maybe the features of the UU and UB should be changed, but the UU and UB itself is nice.
The UHV are good IMO. We can start with them for now. If someone knows a better one, we can change it. But if we keep these I won't complain.
The only part I'm really concerned of is the UP. As IOSI said, it's not really useful, as Bureaucracy is available not soon afterwards. So that can/should be changed.

The Kingdom of Scotland - start in 960 AD
Leader: Robert the Bruce
The Power of Defiance: Lower stability penalty for losing cities and whenever you do, your other cities get free defenders.
UU: Sheltron - the ultimate anti-cavalry formation, but it's inflexibility makes it somewhat weak against everything else.
UB: Shieling - a system of transferring livestock with the seasons to keep them on good grazing grounds. A smokehouse replacement with extra bonuses for Sheep.
UHV's:
Fortification: Have 10 Forts and 3 Castles in 1296.
The Auld Alliance: Have 1000 Attitude points with France by 1560. You get points for good relations, open borders, exports, imports, and common wars.
The Celtic Union: Control Scotland, the Isles, Ireland, Wales and Bretagne in 1700.

UP: I agree with IOSI.
UU: It's an unit that should be used for a very specific goal. Could be a nice challenge to use it well.
UB: IIRC, it only adds 1

and 1

. And only if you have sheep. IMO a bit underpowered. It could use a little boost. (some defense bonus?)
UHV: I like the first and third UHV. I don't really like the second. IMO, it's too dependent on 1 civ.

The Egyptians - start in 972 AD
Leaders: Saladin, Baibars
The Power of the Nile: River tiles have +1 food.
UU: Mamluk - "Slave-noble" cavalry, the first force to ever defeat the Mongols in an open battle.
UB: Souk - an open seasonal market, improves health and commerce with the right goods.
UHV's:
Crusaders come, Crusaders go: Control Egypt, Arabia, Jerusalem, Lebanon, Syria, Antiochia and Cyprus in 1291.
Mongols come, Mongols go: Kill 50 Keshiks by 1450.
Egypt is eternal: Control 15 world wonders by 1700.

Good in general. Maybe some minor changes are needed.

The Moroccans - start in 1040 AD
Leaders: Yaqub al-Mansur, Ismail Ibn Sharif
The Power of Saharan Trade: Deserts are 1h1c, oases have triple value
UU: Black Guard - Brutally efficient sub-Saharan elite troops, with no loyalties but to the King himself.
UB: Kasbah - A city wall replacement that adds some food to the city, promoting growth in the difficult environment.
UHV's:
The Almohads: Control Morocco, Marrakesh, Tetouan, Sijilmasa, Aoudaghost, Oran, Algiers, Ifriqiya, Tripolitania, Andalusia, and Valencia in 1212AD.
The Marinids: Have 5000 culture in each of three cities in 1465AD.
The Saadis: Collapse or vassalize Portugal, Spain, and Aragon by 1578AD.

Also good in general. But it does need a new UU. The Black Guard is a good UU for Morocco, but not in this mod. It comes too late. It is availabe after the UHV. So you can't really make use of it.

The Crown of Aragon - start in 1164 AD
Leader: James I
The Power of Confederation: Extra commerce in your capital for every province you have a city in.
UU: Almogavar - Legionary-style conquerors, a stronger Guisarmier with first strikes.
UB: Seaport - A massive increase in shipping capabilities, a lighthouse that increases the transport capabilities of every ship built.
UHV's:
The Sicilian Vespers: Control Catalonia, Valencia, Baleares and Sicily in 1282AD.
Thalassocracy: Have 25 ships in 1444AD.
Realms of the Crown: Control Catalonia, Valencia, Aragon, Baleares, Corsica, Sardinia, Sicily, Apulia, Provence and Thessaly in 1474AD.

Nice base in general. The only thing I think that should be changed is the 2nd UHV. Just building some ships isn't really a challenge. I would suggest something like this:
Thalassocracy: Have more ships than the next following 2 civs combined. (English UHV from DoC)
If other civs doesn't build many ships, it could be improved by: "with at fleet size of at least 50 ships."
It's maybe a bit less historical, but IMO, more challenging and more fun.

The Teutonic Order/Duchy of Prussia - start in 1224 AD
Leaders: Hermann von Salza and Frederick the Great
The Power of Cameralism: Start in Theocracy and no instability from anarchy.
UU: Death's Head Hussar - the feared elite light cavalry of Frederick the Great, a stronger Hussar.
UB: Public School - The first modern school system, it brings both stability and enlightenment among the population.
UHV's:
The Northern Crusades: Control Lithuania, Livonia, Estonia, and Pomerania in 1410AD.
Seven Years' War: Collapse or conquer two cities from each of Austria, Muscovy, Germany, Sweden, France and Spain between 1650AD and 1763AD.
Enlightened Despotism: Settle a total of 15 Great People in any combination, including Great Generals, in your capital.

I won't say anything on it yet, because I want to wait for the results on the poll first.

The Tunisians - start in 1229 AD
Leader: Uthman
The Power of Barbary Corsairs: Piracy (blockading ports that you are at peace with) gives triple gold.
UU: Corsair - a slightly weaker, but much earlier and cheaper version of the Privateer.
UB: Bagnio - the "slave prisons", where those who were abducted would be held in wait for ransom or selling. A dungeon replacement that gives free citizen specialists.
UHV's:
The Barbary Coast: Have 12 coastal cities in Oran, Algiers, Ifriqiya, Tripolitania and Cyrenaica in 1492AD.
The Abductions: Control Malta, Iceland, Ireland, Sicily and Sardinia in 1650AD.
Terror of the Mediterranean: Get 10000 gold from piracy by 1750AD.

Currenlty very focussed on Privateering. I little variation could do them good I think.

The Crimean Khanate - start in 1441 AD
Leader: Devlet I Giray
The Power of Iasyri: Razing cities gives less instability and a free citizen in your capital.
UU: Chambul - the basic unit of Crimean raiding parties, an early, gunpowderless Pistolier with extra mobility.
UB: Subject Horde - the sedentary Crimeans held several nomadic hordes in vassalage that provided them with soldiers. A Guild Hall with raw production instead of free engineer, and no unhealth.
UHV's:
Seizer of the Throne: Capture or Raze Moscow by 1571AD.
Harvesting the Steppe: Raze 20 cities.
The Last of the Hordes: Have no more than 5 cities until 1699AD.

Changes are not really needed. The way it is in RFCE++ makes it a very fun and unique civ to play.

ezzlar · Jan 18, 2013

Scotland:

- Needs a new UP. It´s only useful for losing players. For AI it might be good however.

Moroccans:

- UU arrives too late in relation to UHVs. Too late for first UHV and too early for third UHV. An earlier UU would be more beneficial, maybe replacement for maceman?
- First UHV is a bit too much luck if Cordoba is strong. I would prefer a NA expansion/conquest UHV instead plus some islands maybe.

Serbia:

- UP is a bit broken. It creates unrealistic effects.

Sweden:

- First UHV is not enough complex. An additional region should be added.

Tunisians:

- Their UU should be available earlier. Now it comes at the same time as Carrack which also has strenght 8, and then you have to fight every civ´s Carracks. Earlier at same strenght or slightly lower. Another possibility is a UU Privateer instead with some added bonus.

embryodead · Jan 18, 2013

I'm not up-to-date with RFCE++ and the discussions going on, but I'm surprised people want Tunisia when there's no Kingdom of Sicily. For a lot of time Tunisia was either under influence of Egypt or Moroccan dynasties, and even when independent there's not so much about it other than piracy. Sicily seems much more important, especially in European context. At times it was the strongest faction in Italy and was contested by Byzantium, Arabs, Normans, Italian states, Germans, French and Aragonese. Currently that area is mostly barren. The core would include Sicily (possibly enlarged by a plot or two) & Southern Italy, while expansion areas would be Malta, Tunisia (they held ports there) and rest of Italy.

AluminumKnight · Jan 18, 2013

The Crown of Aragon - start in 1164 AD
Leader: James I
The Power of Confederation: Extra commerce in your capital for every province you have a city in.
UU: Almogavar - Legionary-style conquerors, a stronger Guisarmier with first strikes.
UB: Seaport - A massive increase in shipping capabilities, a lighthouse that increases the transport capabilities of every ship built.
UHV's:
The Sicilian Vespers: Control Catalonia, Valencia, Baleares and Sicily in 1282AD.
Thalassocracy: Have 25 ships in 1444AD.
Realms of the Crown: Control Catalonia, Valencia, Aragon, Baleares, Corsica, Sardinia, Sicily, Apulia, Provence and Thessaly in 1474AD.

I agree the 2nd UHV could be improved. I like your idea, merjin, but I still wonder if we could improve it more... maybe something to think about for future versions?

I also think the UP could be improved. I was thinking about changing the UB or UP to something like The Consulate of the Sea (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consulate_of_the_sea) and give a +1 commerce in coastal (Mediterranean?) cities, rather than the capital.

Historically, Zaragoza was not that important economically, Barcelona was never really the capital, and I have a feeling we won't be spawning in Naples, so that will not be our capital either. For these reasons, I think it makes more sense to give the extra commerce in the cities themselves.

We could make that change to the UP, but as I was reading up on it a little, the Consulate was something that the Crown established in cities around the Mediterranean, so it felt more like a building to me. In this case, what to do about the redundant UP?

1. We could shift the UB power, so give them +1 transport capacity in all or some ships
2. I really like the idea of +1 stability rather than gold for every (Mediterranean) province you have a city in. However, is this unnecessary since Aragon will be already encouraged to settle/conquer all the UHV3 areas by stability/settler map?
3. +2 (or appropriate amount, I'm not sure) production in each coastal Mediterranean city sounds almost as good to me as well

After I looked at all of this, I realized that maybe I was messing too much with something that was already pretty good, but thought I'd bounce the ideas of you guys anyway.

The Crown of Aragon - start in 1164 AD
Leader: James I
The Power of Confederation: Extra production in each coastal Mediterranean city
UU: Almogavar - Legionary-style conquerors, a stronger Guisarmier with first strikes.
UB: Consulate of the Sea - Replaces Lighthouse, +1 commerce
UHV's:
The Sicilian Vespers: Control Catalonia, Valencia, Baleares and Sicily in 1282AD.
Thalassocracy: Have 25 ships in 1444AD. (OR Have more ships than the next following 2 civs combined)
Realms of the Crown: Control Catalonia, Valencia, Aragon, Baleares, Corsica, Sardinia, Sicily, Apulia, Provence and Thessaly in 1474AD.

AbsintheRed · Jan 19, 2013

embryodead said:
I'm not up-to-date with RFCE++ and the discussions going on, but I'm surprised people want Tunisia when there's no Kingdom of Sicily. For a lot of time Tunisia was either under influence of Egypt or Moroccan dynasties, and even when independent there's not so much about it other than piracy. Sicily seems much more important, especially in European context. At times it was the strongest faction in Italy and was contested by Byzantium, Arabs, Normans, Italian states, Germans, French and Aragonese. Currently that area is mostly barren. The core would include Sicily (possibly enlarged by a plot or two) & Southern Italy, while expansion areas would be Malta, Tunisia (they held ports there) and rest of Italy.

The main reason against their inclusion in RFCE++ was their effect on Aragon
Most people said that they would take away from the aragonese gameplay too much

I think they would have a place in ++, so there is a good chance they will make it 2.0

On the current map: they have a huge disadvantage against Tunesia, the much smaller area.
I would like to keep the minimal territory (for a playable civ) higher than it was in ++
Tunesia, Aragon and Sicily would be too much for me in the current version

AbsintheRed · Jan 19, 2013

Some more thoughts, based on feedback here and on my own ideas, with the possible changes underlined.
Let's start with the NE region, these 3 civs are heavily connected:

The Republic of Novgorod - start in 864 AD
Leaders: Rurik, Alexander Nevsky, Marfa Posadnitsa
The Power of the Lord City: Start with Bureaucracy, and additional commerce or food in the city.
UU: Ushkuinik - the "Russian Vikings", amphibious Maceman with extra city attack.
UB: Konets - the first guilds of Europe, a supercharged Guild Hall with extra unhealth.
UHV's:
Defender of Rus': Control Novgorod, Finland and Estonia in 1250.
The Fur Trade: Gain access to ten sources of fur by 1397.
The Great Hinterlands: Have five cities in Karelia, Rostov, and Vologda in 1478.

The bureucracy UP is still good, even if it's not much earlier than the time it's availeable for the other civs. You don't have to switch to it manually, thus avoiding anarchy. A small additional bonus is nice though
Not yet sure about a third leader, and Marfa Boretskaya's "rule" is rather controversial
The 5 cities UHV goal is way too easy

The Kingdom of Sweden - start in 1210 AD
Leaders: Magnus Ladulås, Gustav I (Gusav Vasa), Karl XII
The Power of Military Formation: All units start with Formation promotion.
UU: Karolin - the most formidable force in Europe at the time, highly drilled and fanatically religious.
UB: Soldattorp - part of the national military allotment system, this allowed Sweden to raise enormous forces very quickly.
UHV's:
The Eastern Lands: Have six cities in Norrland, Finland and Karelia in 1323.
Lion of the North: Raze 5 Catholic cities while being Protestant by 1660.
Dominium Maris Baltici: Control every coastal city on the Baltic in 1750.

We can keep both Karolin and Soldattorp the way they are, but both are availeable much later then the spawn. Do we get a unique enough early gameplay this way?
Also, does this UP feel fitting even for Sweden in the 13-16 century?
Probably it would be more fun if one of the Us would be connected to early Sweden
So I would restrict the Formation promotion to later eras, even if we leave that in.
Also, is Magnus Ladulås the best early leader?
The first UHV should be expanded

The Teutonic Order/Duchy of Prussia - start in 1224 AD
Leaders: Hermann von Salza and Frederick the Great
The Power of Cameralism: Start in Theocracy and no instability from anarchy.
UU: Death's Head Hussar - the feared elite light cavalry of Frederick the Great, a stronger Hussar.
UB: Public School - The first modern school system, it brings both stability and enlightenment among the population.
UHV's:
The Northern Crusades: Control Lithuania, Livonia, Estonia, and Pomerania in 1410AD.
Seven Years' War: Collapse or conquer two cities from each of Austria, Muscovy, Germany, Sweden, France and Spain between 1650AD and 1763AD.
Enlightened Despotism: Settle a total of 15 Great People in any combination, including Great Generals, in your capital.

We will see what's the end of the discussion and poll in the other thread:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=485988

Anyway, if it's included in any form, changes are needed for Poland and Lithuania too
In order to add them enough territory, Teutonic Order should easily expand to Livonia

iOnlySignIn · Jan 19, 2013

Novgorod

AbsintheRed said:
The bureucracy UP is still good, even if it's not much earlier than the time it's availeable for the other civs. You don't have to switch to it manually, thus avoiding anarchy. A small additional bonus is nice though

There should be an additional bonus. Bureaucracy is nothing compared to Merchant Republic (Venice UP).

The 5 cities UHV goal is way too easy

Become the largest civilization in Europe? Not very doable with current, really powerful Byzantium, but could make for some interesting strategies.

Sweden

We can keep both Karolin and Soldattorp the way they are, but both are availeable much later then the spawn. Do we get a unique enough early gameplay this way?

If Sweden spawns during the Northern Crusades, it can start with a stack of Berserkers (and Berserker should be allowed to upgrade to Musketman/Karolin).

In the Northern Crusades Sweden's main opponents are Heavy Infantry (Novgorod and Lithuanian UUs). So Sweden's UP can be changed so that its early units start with Shock, and later (Renaissance) with Formation.

In other news, Scottish voice set should be done in the next few days. My Lithuanian friend is still looking for a good mic, and I can't get in touch with my Middle German speaking friend - he's in a bit of financial trouble lately.

Edit: Just checked a message from him. He says his Middle High German is too rusty from not having studied in many years and would sound mostly like Modern German as a result.

AbsintheRed · Jan 19, 2013

iOnlySignIn said:
In other news, Scottish voice set should be done in the next few days. My Lithuanian friend is still looking for a good mic.

Great news! Looking forward to the sets

Edit: Just checked a message from him. He says his Middle High German is too rusty from not having studied in many years and would sound mostly like Modern German as a result.

That might work too, if he is willing to do it
It's still better if we have two different sound sets for the german states
(I don't really like BtS's HRE sounds either)

Askiya · Jan 20, 2013

AbsintheRed said:
Great news! Looking forward to the sets

That might work too, if he is willing to do it
It's still better if we have two different sound sets for the german states
(I don't really like BtS's HRE sounds either)

I might be able to get in contact with some of my German-speaking friends, but I'm not sure if any of them knows Middle German. I believe at least one of them knows the Austrian dialect if you need sounds for Austria.

EDIT: Also, if you can't find anyone to do Middle German, then you could just use different dialects (i.e. Swabian, Austro-Bavarian, etc.) although it would be much less authentic of course.

AbsintheRed · Jan 21, 2013

Askiya said:
I might be able to get in contact with some of my German-speaking friends, but I'm not sure if any of them knows Middle German. I believe at least one of them knows the Austrian dialect if you need sounds for Austria.

Sounds great!

EDIT: Also, if you can't find anyone to do Middle German, then you could just use different dialects (i.e. Swabian, Austro-Bavarian, etc.) although it would be much less authentic of course.

The more german sounds the merrier
The best would be to have at least 4-5 sets for 2.0
Austria, Prussia, and a couple for the other HRE states and mercenaries

So go on, ask them

ezzlar · Jan 21, 2013

One good thing with removing Tunisia and adding Sicily is that we get a Christian buffer between the muslim nations so they dont have to fight each other so much!

New civs in RFCE

Deity

Prince

Prince$s

Prince$s

Deity

Prince

Black Belt

Deity

Black Belt

Black Belt

Emperor

Caliph

Conquistador

Deity

Deity

Prince$s

Deity

Warlord

Deity

Emperor

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