OT survey results

Atticus

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Retired Moderator
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Summing up the results took longer than expected. It was partly due to the questions not always being easily quantifiable, but also partly due to the lack of time and even laziness from me. Sorry for that. :)

As a general impression, what people see unsatisfactory in the OT are (in no specific order):
1. Lack of active moderators and inability to tell them apart from those who aren't active.
2. Problem posters who ruin it for everyone.

The problem 1, we are trying to do something to it, but don't expect fast results, since paradoxically enough, due to the lack of staff most of our efforts have recently gone into keeping the place up.

On the problem 2, that is something we have tried to do something in the past, and keep trying to do in the future. These things aren't easy, really. If someone posts Nazi propaganda, porn or advertisement here, there's not much difficulty to ban him. Most of the posters that were named problematic aren't like that however: They do the same things as the other people, but with much bigger volume, or they are a bit jerk, but in so many posts it begins to count as being a lot jerk. Or they put forward views that aren't so clearly offensive, but not quite inoffensive either.

These considerations were also present in the replies to the survey, as some people wished for more consistency, neutrality etc. Dealing with less obviously problematic posters means in practice that we set separate rules for them.

Another noteworthy thing here is the reunification of the OT. Many people did support it, but about as many supported the new system, didn't find it worse, or simply didn't say anything about it, which in this kind of survey can be read as that they don't support the unification.

Here's some breakdown of specific questions. There was about 40 replies to each of the questions. Here the percentages aren't that exact, since they are based on my reading of the replies. On some questions people's replies have been counted to several groups ("I come to the OT out of habit and to meet friends"). Don't knows and obscure answers are sometimes omitted, but included in the poll-type things (Like "Do you prefer the current moderation to the before split").

1. Why do you come to the Colosseum?

Habit ~30 %
Variety of discussions, smart, fun and diverse people ~30 %
Community and friends ~20 %
To kill time ~13%
To keep up on what's happening in the world ~8 %

Individual answers give more colour to this: people mentioned diversity of opinions, of geographical origins etc, and that people still know each others here, like in a local pub. Most people didn't emphasize serious discussions as their reasons, although some seemed to enjoy the possibility to have those too.

2. What do you see as the goal for those who participate in or moderate the Colosseum? What kind of place should it be? How will we know if we achieve such a goal?

Most people said the discussion and the feeling of the community, and just to have fun.

Moderators were expected mostly to just keep things civil.

Aside from that a lot of things were mentioned: that discussion quality shouldn't be enforced, that the quality should be enforced in some threads depending on topic, that mods should keep topics from drifting, that the interventions should be rare but firm... More than one said something equivalent to "keep the funny trolls, ban the stupid trolls".

3. How would you organize the Colosseum? Which sub forums should be grouped together, which kept separate?

The most hot topic here is of course the reunification of the OT. Please note that this isn't referendum on the issue, and the exact numbers are open to the reading of the replies:
Reunite the OTs ~50 %
Now is good ~13%
Now explicit mention on the split issue : ~37 %.



Maybe some of those who didn't comment on the issue would vote in a strict yes/no voting for the reunification, but I'd think they would have said something on the issue to this question too. Since this reading of the result will probably be called biased, I'd like to mention that I am actually for the reunification.

However, CFC is not a democracy, but a malevolent dictatorship, so the exact numbers here don't matter. I'll expand on this point in a later post.

Little more than third of the reuniters wished the united OT to have red diamond threads for stricter moderator, but this might've been higher if it was specifically asked.

About 30-40 % of people wanted the Arts and Entertainment and Science and Technology to be merged with the OT (or chamber, or some other place).

Then there were many rare mentions, like merging Humour into the Tavern, Sci & Tech with Computer talk, history and science to the Chamber, NOT to merge World History anywhere...

It was also mentioned that the description of Arts and Entertainment subforum doesn't end with full stop unlike all the other subforums, and this has been an ongoing issue.

4. What is the single most annoying aspect of the Colosseum?

To this most popular answer was the single problem posters (25-30%).

The second most popular was a tie between "nothing" and cliques & circlejerk, with three mentions.

Others were single mentions: rudeness, nutjobs, low traffic, lack of good posters, inability to quote the old OT, it's difficult to spell, inconsistent moderation, conservatives get dogpiled, no swearing...

5. Do you feel the split of OT into the Tavern and the Chamber has made the Colosseum more enjoyable? Why?

Was better ~38 %
Equal ~15 %
Marginally better/worse 13 %
Now better ~13 %
The lax moderation is better ~13 %
Don't know / other ~8 %

This of course isn't an easy question, since most people probably think some things have become better, and others worse. That's why the marginally better or worse are in a single category. Since a major complaint before the split was the level of moderation, I have split into a separate group those who lauded the more lax moderation. That was what many posters said too: that it's the (only) good thing in the split.

Most complaints were about traffic being low and that the split drove good posters away. Some people said they don't visit the Chamber at all, that it's rules aren't enforced good enough, or that they don't see any difference between the two OTs.
 
6. Do you prefer the current level of moderation to that in the years prior to the split? Why?


Yes ~45 %
Very mild yes/no ~12 %
No ~12 %
Don't know/equal ~28 %



The don't know option here includes many posters who haven't been that much in touch with the moderation that they'd notice any difference. Mostly people liked that the Tavern isn't so strictly moderated. Some people thought the Tavern is too lax while the Chamber is too restrictive, and their ideal was somewhere in between them. Some didn't like the threads drifting off topic. Some said the standards are now too blurry.

7. How do you feel about the current use of each of the following in the Tavern and Chamber? Which do you think should be used more, which less?
1. Permanent bans
2. Lengthy bans (PB > lengthy ban > 1 week ban)
3. Short bans (< 1 week)
4. Permanent points
5. Regular infractions (red cards)
6. Official warnings (yellow cards)
7. Deleting posts (with mod text explanation posted)


Here one trend was that we should give more permanent bans and points to the problem posters. On the other hand some people thought these should be reserved for only the extreme cases.

Many posters said that we edit posts too much. Mostly people said it's confusing, and leaves them ignorant on what was the specific thing that was acted on. This is a thing we should probably put more attention into. But I think some of the posts will be edited or deleted in the future too: those that contain pornographic, violent or shocking images or vocabulary.

Many people wanted mods to leave warning texts more often rather than ban or infract straight away. It was hoped that there'd be more meaningful moderator action, e.g. stop the derailment when it starts rather than to issue post facto admonitions.

Aside from that there were as many opinions as posters. Many posters didn't have any specific opinion on this question.

8. Are you happy with the level and manner of communication between staff and the community? How do you think staff could improve its communication?

It's fine ~57 %
There should be more openness ~18 %
It's terrible ~6 %
No opinion ~15 %



Many people wished that moderators posted more, and thought they look like faceless infraction automatons, or turned like ones once they become moderators. I'll tell my personal view on this later.

Some specific things that were mentioned were that PDMA shouldn't be so strictly forbidden, that the April fool's joke was terrible, that mods are snobbish or disdainful etc.

There were some particular examples on mods not replying to PMs. This kind of things can easily be the mod in question just forgetting. Especially if the PM is lengthy or complicated, it often requires more thoughtful reply, and you might postpone and forget it altogether. I'm sure pretty much everyone here is familiar with the phenomenon. In those cases, it's not bad conduct to remind the mod of it after some time.

Most surprising thing here was though, that most people didn't find much wrong with the communication. That's easy to forget, since people rarely open their mouths to say just "Everything's pretty ok".

9. What do you feel is required to ensure Colosseum membership grows (or at least does not decline), and progressively becomes more enjoyable?

Here people mostly said that it's beyond our reach. Other popular answers were that we should do something about the problem posters (~18%), that we should centralize i.e. keep the colosseum less split up, and prevent cliques.

Then there were many 1-3 mentions: more consistent moderation, more moderation, better moderation, more leeway and power to the mods (and this wasn't a mod's reply), encourage participation elsewhere on the forums, separating Tavern and Chamber on content (serious stuff to Chamber), separating politics from fun etc.

One mention was that people should be able to "thank" (click thumbs up or down?) specific posts, and that could make trolls understand better their toxicity. I mention it here, since that's something that posters have spoken for before too.

10. Do you have any other comments?

What is your favourite colour?


Here people replied with a general mishmash of things. Surprisingly many of them were about the looks of the forums, so it might be that people got to speak their minds on the previous questions already.

Some content related things were wish to have tags back, that this kind of survey would be good in the Other Games -subforum too, general thanks for this survey, and that mod's being jerks should be more scrutinized.

As for the favourite colour, here's the results when the minor details are omitted:

Blue ~39 %
Green ~13 %
Orange ~10 %
Pink ~9 %
Not pink ~4 %
Red ~4 %
White ~4 %
Yellow ~4 %
Purple ~4 %
Ultraviolet ~4 %
Dead salesman's gray ~4 %

If there were multiple ways to read the answer, I took the first mentioned colour that could be represented as an answer. Here's a chart of the answers:



All in all, the survey gave us some insight on what posters think, and reasons to look in the mirror. I hope those things will show in moderation later, but it can and will take some time. Some of the things mentioned were no news to us, but we got hints on how to do those things better, and if not that, at least the support on keep doing what we are doing.

This survey was just a more organized way to hear from you, but you are still welcome to voice your grievances in the Site feedback or PMs to moderators. At the moment the OT mods you are most likely to catch via PM are me, Illram and Birdjaguar, although I'm going to be online very limitedly until next Monday.

Thank you all for the input. :)
 
Thanks for summarising and posting the results Atticus. I can't help thinking, though, that the results told us pretty much what the numerous threads on the issues have told us! What new information have you guys learnt from this?
 
Responses of "it's okay, I guess" were very common. I think the general discussion threads such as Silurian's can often lead to an assumption that those members posting represent the collective will of the community, when this is not necessarily the case. It's always going to be the people wanting change the most that are going to dominate such threads. When asked about the organisation of the Colosseum, 50% of people did not say that the OT forums should be reunified. This being 50% of people who bothered to respond to the survey, which is probably a subset of OT users including a slightly disproportionate number of people wanting change too.

I wouldn't say we've received a whole lot of truly new or revolutionary information, to be honest, because we were already aware that there could be a silent majority. Though getting confirmation of that is useful, and the individual responses can be fairly thought-provoking, without being particularly susceptible to statistical analysis.

Our next step, I believe, is to see a discussion on these results and related issues, poking it in interesting directions and floating some ideas, to help us come up with plans for the future. These results have certainly not indicated any particular direction in which we definitely should head (or more to the point, any particular direction in which the community wants to head), but they do provide a basis on which we can cautiously push forward to seeing what issues need resolving. Because the whole idea behind this consultation process is that staff feels that things aren't quite right.

Change can come at a truly glacial speed, and we appreciate people's patience.

It should be noted that in the month or two preceding the survey, I think we'd already taken some pretty good measures to address some of the problems that people see. Some people didn't seem to have noticed such recent changes in their responses (still complaining about a couple of the problems which I think we have largely addressed), so hopefully the effects will become more evident over time.
 
You ought to be able to see the answers for 6-10 now.

Do you think this thread is best stickied or not?
 
I agree that individual responses are probably more useful than the aggregated results, but that's because I can't see a silent majority opinion at all... I mean there were maybe a dozen people posting in those threads, but 40 people responded to the survey, so you'd think that a silent majority would easily overcome the dozen or so people in the thread. But they didn't -- in fact, 50% of the 40 who responded wanted OT to be remerged. That's a huge number. That's a lot more than I expected. There were FAR fewer than 20 people arguing in favour of a merge in the thread. OTOH, 5 people said they wanted to keep the split -- which is about as many as posted in favour of the split in the thread.

To me, if there is a silent majority at all, it's definitely behind the merge, not behind the split as you guys seem to have concluded...

(I say this as someone who's been in favour of the split for a LONG time.)
 
I think the split is fine. I use both forums (mostly the Tavern by now), but can see why one would choose to post a thread in the Chamber, even though it will most likely have far less traffic there.

Some threads just would be a bad idea in the Tavern. For example my thread on the turkish riots would probably face worse problems in the Tavern than it did at some early time in the Chamber.
 
I agree that individual responses are probably more useful than the aggregated results, but that's because I can't see a silent majority opinion at all... I mean there were maybe a dozen people posting in those threads, but 40 people responded to the survey, so you'd think that a silent majority would easily overcome the dozen or so people in the thread. But they didn't -- in fact, 50% of the 40 who responded wanted OT to be remerged. That's a huge number. That's a lot more than I expected. There were FAR fewer than 20 people arguing in favour of a merge in the thread. OTOH, 5 people said they wanted to keep the split -- which is about as many as posted in favour of the split in the thread.

To me, if there is a silent majority at all, it's definitely behind the merge, not behind the split as you guys seem to have concluded...

(I say this as someone who's been in favour of the split for a LONG time.)

Yeah, maybe that's the case. By 'silent majority' I simply mean that opinion is quite split, whereas it's not so split amongst people who engage in these discussions (so 'silent majority' is probably not the best choice of words). The numbers themselves are not so important; the fact that opinion is split is important.

Either way, just to be clear, this is simply our interpretation of the results, not our attempt to construe them in a particular light; Atticus compiled the answers, and he's probably in favour a remerge, as he indicated. I agree with his conclusion, and I'm a fence-sitter, leaning towards a remerge with RDs. Perhaps we're just reluctant to ignore what might in reality be a small group of people opposing change (staff is generally pretty conservative when it comes to change), but my impression of the answers was certainly that it contained more people ambivalent about the forum split/remerge, or in favour of the current situation, than I expected. Keeping in mind that not all of the people wanting a remerge expressed such a desire in strong language, and not all expressed it for the same reason.

As a point for discussion, I get the impression that some opposition to a remerge revolves around the fear that this means either we have the Chamber or we have the Tavern. It would be interesting to see what people who oppose a remerge think of the idea of a remerge with Tavern-style moderation in most threads, with Chamber-style moderation in Red Diamond threads.
 
Yes I think that's the best option. The only worry for Chamber people would be that the RD threads sink off page 1 very quickly.

What would be cool is if we used the tag system in conjunction with RD, so that people could search for only RD threads if they were really committed to never ever setting foot in the Tavern proper.
 
It should be noted that in the month or two preceding the survey, I think we'd already taken some pretty good measures to address some of the problems that people see. Some people didn't seem to have noticed such recent changes in their responses (still complaining about a couple of the problems which I think we have largely addressed), so hopefully the effects will become more evident over time.
When changes aren't publicly disclosed it's a bit unfair to presume people will pick up on them. People may not check in often enough to notice the change for a while. Also, if they don't know a change has happened they may still be looking at things thinking the issue hasn't been addressed and may then misread things that aren't problematic as being problematic...if that makes sense.

I understand some changes, particularly those pertaining to specific posters, won't be publicly disclosed. That's understandable and fair. I can also see such disclosures being an issue if it's been a contentious issue you don't want to come across as being biased toward or against certain points of view. However, whenever you all decide to make policy changes or forum changes, that should be disclosed wherever possible.
 
You ought to be able to see the answers for 6-10 now.

Do you think this thread is best stickied or not?

I actually recommend not stickying the thread, because a lot of people skip stickied threads.

Yes I think that's the best option. The only worry for Chamber people would be that the RD threads sink off page 1 very quickly.

What would be cool is if we used the tag system in conjunction with RD, so that people could search for only RD threads if they were really committed to never ever setting foot in the Tavern proper.

I think if the RD thread poster put "RD" as one of their tags, with the other four being jokes or serious tags as they saw fit, it would be nice. Or, if it were missed, the mods could add that tag to the OP because I don't think we can edit tags after the OP is posted.
 
I think the split is fine. I use both forums (mostly the Tavern by now), but can see why one would choose to post a thread in the Chamber, even though it will most likely have far less traffic there.

Some threads just would be a bad idea in the Tavern. For example my thread on the turkish riots would probably face worse problems in the Tavern than it did at some early time in the Chamber.

The problem with this, though, is that functionally the exact same posters are posting in the Tavern as are posting in the Chamber. I actually don't really pay attention to which subforum I'm in and post the same way regardless. The only effect the split has it now it takes me more clicks to get from thread to thread. I don't really see much of an effect in terms of infractions on the ground either. I don't see why we can't just have them remerged and use red diamonds to indicate more serious moderation/more infractions.

I think another factor behind your results is that a lot of people prefer the moderation style which comes with the Tavern, and as such are wary about remerging the subfora in fear that that might go away. *EDIT* Cami said these like 5 posts ago so I won't even justify this with a ninja :(

I forgot to mention implementing some kind of karma/thumbsup system on these forums in the survey itself, but I would absolutely like to see one. I think it would be good for the site.
 
I am not entirely against remerging the forums, i could live with that, but i think at least some posters would dislike just having the chamber threads as rd threads in a new unified ot forum.

I think it is possible though that indeed such a re-unification will result sooner or later to tighter moderating rules on all the threads in the ot forum.

Even now as things are, on occasion, i see some posters who regularly flame each other. Sometimes people come to a forum also so as to have a polite discussion, granted most are less sensitive, but this does not mean the rules have to neglect those who are more easy to feel bad from confrontations which sometimes get potentially pretty mean anyway.

Personally i do not care much by now, although i did care in the past (eg a year ago). At any rate everyone posts here for their own particular reasons, so better to keep some eye on heavy confrontation at least on issues which are more likely to be seen as hostile to the affiliations one might have.
 
I forgot to mention implementing some kind of karma/thumbsup system on these forums in the survey itself, but I would absolutely like to see one. I think it would be good for the site.
Agreed. How many people mentioned it, BTW?
 
IIRC only one person did, but then we didn't ask about it.

I didn't even do the survey, but I would have at least replied to support a karma system.

There's a lot of times where I'll see a great post, want to see it recognized as such, but have nothing to really fill a useful post with.
 
When changes aren't publicly disclosed it's a bit unfair to presume people will pick up on them.---

Some changes aren't the kind we can announce. Like you said, how we deal with special cases, or if we're going to shift the moderation style to warnings instead infractions, you'll just see it if it happens.

Thanks for summarising and posting the results Atticus. I can't help thinking, though, that the results told us pretty much what the numerous threads on the issues have told us! What new information have you guys learnt from this?

Like Camikaze said, one reason for this was to map how well things said in those thread represent the views of the majority. The survey gave some light on that matter, although people with mild opinions are still less likely to answer.

On the merge issue, I think the only way to read the results is that if a person didn't in some form say that the OTs should be merged, he doesn't support (actively) the idea. Of course that doesn't mean that they are against it either. It would be however mistake to consider the results as conclusive, since this was never a poll on that matter.

Other than that, the survey gave people a change to speak their minds unlike the public forum. People for example named specific posters and moderators they thought to be troublesome. Some of the things people said weren't probably the topmost things on their mind, and they wouldn't hav bothered to write them all in the OT split -thread for example. Now when they were able to speak of the minor annoyances too.

For example, the habit of moderators to edit or delete posts wasn't a major theme in the OT split thred, or other feedback threads either. In the replies it was mentioned some times. It's also a thing that it should be easier for us to improve on than some "bigger" things.
 
Would be nice if this thread could be stickied for awhile - say a week?
 
I'm appalled by the fact that no one sent you guys random pictures of puppies and/or kittens in this survey. OT has really gone downhill.
 
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