50 Shades of Black and White [Off-Topic Discussion]

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spaceman98

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Moderator Action: Please use this thread for random philosophical discussions that don't belong elsewhere.

Since there's no better way to spend the time procrastinating on homework than to write semi-philosophical rants in the signup threads of mafia games, I give you this. Enjoy! Or ignore! :

Spoiler random philosophy/procrastination from me :
Why is being the villain fun? Well, first, heroes often absorb the morality of those societies that wrote the stories, and most story-writing societies throughout history weren't particularly nice/moral places, so half the time, the villains, once you dig into the story a bit, are actually better than, or equal to the heroes. Case in point: In the ghostbusters, the "heroes" are willing to bring eternal and cruel imprisonment upon ghosts, without a trial, without a lawyer, without a real effort to communicate or negotiate. Sure, it may be justified some times (Gozer clearly wasn't interested in peace), but many of the ghosts they doom to eternity in prison at the start did little wrong compared to the punishment levied upon them in response.

The second reason is one of narrative structure. The heroes, in general, get their victories and defeats handed to them. When they win, its because of blatant deus ex machina's like Gandalf's resurrection, when they lose, its because of absurdly overwhelming forces from the villains, and its only temporary. Villains have to work for their victories. Ever notice in superhero comics, the heroes got their cool powers because a spider stung them, or because of radiation, or because of some Soviet supper-soldier liquid. The villains have their powers because they worked to build humongous mechs and corporate empires, or Dr.Oc's arms, etc. Sure there are exceptions, like Batman (who I can rant about infinitely in a separate analysis) but the rule holds outside of superhero comics. Why is the droideka the most awesome thing in star wars, ever? Because its a product of intelligent effort that successfully counters jedi, while Jedi mostly have their abilities because of an inborn trait (sure they train, but as Luke's story shows, little training is really necessary). While the star wars heroes, with a few exceptions, avoid getting shot, the star wars villains often get shot, fried and destroyed, only to come back, because of excellent engineering (the Vader suit, general grievous, etc.), though I have to give the producer some credit here, Luke also injured in battle and is saved by cybernetics augmentation. As I have said, the Star Wars original series is one place where the heroes have won me over to their side, and there are a few others, but overall, the above rant holds.
 
2: In many stories, some examination reveals that the villains are right, or at least no worse than the heroes (*cough* LOTR *cough* Star Wars Prequel Trilogy, though in the original series I found myself agreeing with the heroes for once :p *cough*)

How in the world are Saruman and Sauron "right, or at least no worse than the heroes"?? Same for Star Wars. Those are two of the most shining examples of black and white morality.
 
How in the world are Saruman and Sauron "right, or at least no worse than the heroes"??

No kidding. Saruman and Sauron are ruthless villains who believe in murder, betrayal, and slavery. So, please explain to me why wanting to live life like a hobbit is just as bad, or worse than the aforementioned 3. :p
 
No kidding. Saruman and Sauron are ruthless villains who believe in murder, betrayal, and slavery. So, please explain to me why wanting to live life like a hobbit is just as bad, or worse than the aforementioned 3. :p
Sauron in particular is the very embodiment of the Evil Overlord trope (no explanation needed), and Saruman plays the role of The Starscream (plotting to betray Sauron and seize the Ring's power for himself). They are two of the most unquestionably "evil" characters in all of literature and film.

Both Star Wars and LOTR are universes with black and white morality. The two poster boys for it, really.
 
Nah, SW has a lot of greys outside the films.
 
Even in the Prequel trilogy there are a lot of characters who, once they get more screen time, don't come off as that evil.
 
1: LOTR: This is an example of the "heroes are no worse than the villains", not "the villains are any good". Gondor is the heir of imperialistic Numenor, Rohan was originally created as a puppet of Gondor, on the ancestral lands of the http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Dunlendings, which it forced off of the grazing lands of http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Calenardhon, into hilly reservations. In other words, Rohan did to the native dunlendings the exact same thing as Isengard is doing to the Fangorn ents: forcing them from their native land, killing all who resist and destroying their culture. Neither of the two can claim moral high ground. Mordor marches with war on Gondor, just like Gondor and friends did in the http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/War_of_the_Last_Alliance, in response, not to Mordorian invasion, but merely to Mordor's existence (from the wiki: The Last Alliance of Elves and Men was formed in 3430 of the Second Age in response to the threat of conquest by the Dark Lord Sauron). They invaded, and killed all of the orcs who inhabited the Gorgoroth (from the Wiki: "the Elves and Men were ready to face their oldest and greatest enemy --- this time for the last time. No prisoners could or would be taken; both sides knew this, and so it lent each army a desperate energy"). If Mordor supports slavery, Gondor supports genocide.


The hobbits are actually nice people though, their just being used as pawns, in the same way as the Haradrim are just pawns for Sauron, not themselves malicious.
 
Oh please, spaceman, this isnt' Ask a Red.
Such as...?
Most of the CIS characters have interesting backstories. Palpatine and Dooku are scum from beginning to end, though.
 
As for Star Wars, I was referring to the Republic vs. Separatist conflict, not the Rebels vs. Empire conflict. The rebels have my sympathy, the Republic before did not. Why? For one thing, when Palpatine comes to power, the Republic folds and becomes the Empire with little resistance, while the separatists fight on to re-establish democracy http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Separatist_holdouts, and eventually transform into the rebel alliance with help from some who have defected from the Empire (the rebel ships are, with the exception of the X-Wing, all former separatist models).
 
1: LOTR: This is an example of the "heroes are no worse than the villains", not "the villains are any good". Gondor is the heir of imperialistic Numenor, Rohan was originally created as a puppet of Gondor, on the ancestral lands of the http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Dunlendings, which it forced off of the grazing lands of http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Calenardhon, into hilly reservations. In other words, Rohan did to the native dunlendings the exact same thing as Isengard is doing to the Fangorn ents: forcing them from their native land, killing all who resist and destroying their culture. Neither of the two can claim moral high ground. Mordor marches with war on Gondor, just like Gondor and friends did in the http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/War_of_the_Last_Alliance, in response, not to Mordorian invasion, but merely to Mordor's existence (from the wiki: The Last Alliance of Elves and Men was formed in 3430 of the Second Age in response to the threat of conquest by the Dark Lord Sauron). They invaded, and killed all of the orcs who inhabited the Gorgoroth (from the Wiki: "the Elves and Men were ready to face their oldest and greatest enemy --- this time for the last time. No prisoners could or would be taken; both sides knew this, and so it lent each army a desperate energy"). If Mordor supports slavery, Gondor supports genocide.


The hobbits are actually nice people though, their just being used as pawns, in the same way as the Haradrim are just pawns for Sauron, not themselves malicious.
To be fair, that is not Lord of the Rings (i.e. the books/movies of the same name).

And it's a silly argument anyways. It'd be like saying the Americans had "no moral high ground" over the Nazis in World War II because of the Trail of Tears. Just because the heroes are not perfect does not mean they are no better than the villains.

As for Star Wars, I was referring to the Republic vs. Separatist conflict, not the Rebels vs. Empire conflict. The rebels have my sympathy, the Republic before did not. Why? For one thing, when Palpatine comes to power, the Republic folds and becomes the Empire with little resistance, while the separatists fight on to re-establish democracy http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Separatist_holdouts, and eventually transform into the rebel alliance with help from some who have defected from the Empire (the rebel ships are, with the exception of the X-Wing, all former separatist models).
The Separatists are puppets of Dooku and Palpatine, who are unquestionably evil.
 
Oh please, spaceman, this isnt' Ask a Red.
Most of the CIS characters have interesting backstories. Palpatine and Dooku are scum from beginning to end, though.

Yeah, I'm starting to regret posting my initial rant, but this is fun, so unless choxorn objects, I will continue (and who are you to criticize spam :p)
 
To be fair, that is not Lord of the Rings (i.e. the books/movies of the same name).

And it's a silly argument anyways. It'd be like saying the Americans had "no moral high ground" over the Nazis in World War II because of the Trail of Tears. Just because the heroes are not perfect does not mean they are no better than the villains.
The difference is that America took steps to improve itself and to improve the lives of the natives, while Gondor continues with its genocidal policies, leaving no orcs alive once they conquer Mordor the second time. To their credit though, they do treat Haradrim and Rhunic POWs better, so I can accept that they are slightly less evil than Sauron is.

The Separatists are puppets of Dooku and Palpatine, who are unquestionably evil.

The Republic is a puppet of Palpatine also. As for Dooku, while I don't have perfect information about him, IIRC he started the movement in response to corruption within the Jedi order and the Republic, he implements the separatist senate etc, so from what I know (which isn't everything), he's one of the better separatist leaders
 
I never said it was spam, and I post good spam anyway. It takes time and effort to spam the way I do.
 
The difference is that America took steps to improve itself and to improve the lives of the natives, while Gondor continues with its genocidal policies, leaving no orcs alive once they conquer Mordor the second time. To their credit though, they do treat Haradrim and Rhunic POWs better, so I can accept that they are slightly less evil than Sauron is.

The Republic is a puppet of Palpatine also. As for Dooku, while I don't have perfect information about him, IIRC he started the movement in response to corruption within the Jedi order and the Republic, he implements the separatist senate etc, so from what I know (which isn't everything), he's one of the better separatist leaders
Here's the problem with your argument: movies and books and stories aren't about countries and places.

Lord of the Rings isn't about Gondor and Rohan - it's about Frodo, Aragorn, Gimli, Legolas, and Gandalf; it's about Sauron and Saruman. Gondor isn't the hero, and Mordor isn't the villain - it's the people, the characters who play these roles. Aragorn does not lose his hero status because of something Gondor did hundreds, thousands of years ago, because that's ridiculous.

Similarly, Star Wars isn't about the Republic and the Separatists - it's about Anakin and Luke Skywalker, Han Solo, Obi-Wan Kenobi, and Yoda; it's about Vader, Maul, Dooku, and Palpatine.
 
Here's the problem with your argument: movies and books and stories aren't about countries and places. Lord of the Rings isn't about Gondor and Rohan - it's about Frodo, Aragorn, Gimli, Legolas, and Gandalf; it's about Sauron and Saruman. Gondor isn't the hero, and Mordor isn't the villain - it's the people, the characters who play these roles. Similarly, Star Wars isn't about the Republic and the Separatists - it's about Anakin and Luke Skywalker, Han Solo, Obi-Wan Kenobi, and Yoda; it's about Vader, Maul, Dooku, and Palpatine.

Eh, to each his or her own, I guess. I enjoy digging into a movie's indepth backstory, its nations, its history, etc, and drawing bizzare conclusions from the backstory which the authors did not want me to draw. I think that this is a useful exercise, since the same can be done to real life propaganda to unpack it and reveal its internal flaws, getting something closer to the truth. That said, I can understand watching a movie for its characters, Frodo genuinely is awesome, etc.
 
Yeah… but even so your analysis of LotR history is, well, ****oo.
 
I don't mind the spam, but save it for the Game Thread so that I can improve my rankings on "Most Posts/Game." :mischief:
 
Yeah… but even so your analysis of LotR history is, well, ****oo.

eh, perhaps, I think its no more biased then LOTR itself was (given that I originally wrote that as an intro to my own LOTR fan fic, from the POV of an orc after the fall of the black gate, its suppose to be biased, just like LOTR was, and just like any in-universe account of the War of the Rings has to be. Sadly, the fic itself never got off the ground because real life happened, though in the name of Morgoth, one day I shall finish it :mwaha:.), but I digress
 
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