Deity challenge - Pacal turn 41 NC... Then what?

Gustavus Rex · Dec 30, 2013

Hello fellow civ-comrades! English is not my first language etc...

I usually struggle on Immortal and sometimes, when I get lucky with ancient ruins, I try to get Great Library for an early NC.

This is what happened on this Deity-map but even though I have tried over and over I can't win. Since I find the map fun to play in many ways, I very much like to see how you Deity-players steamroll over it!

EDIT:

Challange no1 is to take over my 41 turn start and win the game.

Challenge no2 is to play from the beginning and win the game.

The settings are Mayans - Deity - Standard Pangaea map - Raging Barbarians - DLC's in screenshot below. Also, I play on MAC. Don't know if thats a problem?

Spoiler :

My messed up 41 turn start. Would be fun for me to see you take over from there but I'll add the actual start as well!

Spoiler :

The actual start:

Spoiler :

Browd · Dec 30, 2013

There's something wrong with your screenshot links, but I opened the turn 41 save.

I think you squandered the only reason you might consider rushing GL/NC on Deity with the Mayans -- to get turn 51 Theology, to maximize the benefits of the Mayan UA. Here, you have an early NC, but have beelined Construction, rather than Theology, with no experienced Atlalists to upgrade to CBs. And that rush left you with a 3-pop city at turn 41, so your tech rate is still relatively poor.

Your social policy and pantheon choices are also suboptimal -- Tradition to Oligarchy (for the GL and NC construction boost) and then the Liberty opener (presumably aiming for the free settler policy), and Monument to the Gods for your pantheon (with 3 salt, Earth Mother would have been better long term).

In short, I think you crippled yourself to get an early NC, with little tangible benefit. Also, the Swedes settled their second city in your direction, and the Shoshone are about to settle their third city in your direction. Doesn't look good.

EDIT: Played forward a number of turns (couldn't resist). There are still a few settlement spots, but Petra went quickly (as usual on Deity), so maybe there's room for a couple of more decent cities. Could strain to put a city next to Kilimanjaro, but it will suck for production and will only irritate Pocatello. The one saving grace is that everyone hates Attila, so diplo isolation is an option. Also Byz enhanced early (took the three major religious buildings) and beelined for a reformation belief (science buildings). I want her religion, so I would be inclined to choose interfaith dialogue and cheap missionaries to get a short term science boost until her religion sweeps the map.

Kouvb593kdnuewnd · Dec 30, 2013

I used your 41 turn save and have played to turn 91

First I changed the tech path from construction to theology (finished the wheel) to get the ua online.

The capital built I think 2 atlatls and then two settlers.

Took free worker hoked up resources which I mostly sold for gold.

City two and three both built monuments.

Teched for second and third trade routes then to education.

Bribed sweden with lux to friendship and got friends with alot of ai's only basicly Atila is not my friend but he got others to beat right now.

Chosed GS first then GG for citadel because Portugal covered my lands however now she seams to become my friend.

Im planing to tech Acustics (don't know how to spell that tech) after education to hit renisance so I can go rationalism.

With all friendship I can get alot of resarch agrements to help my tech.

I plan to atleast try to get porcline tower with a GE and use GW to speed up rationalism and artist for golden ages.

I posted the save, do you think it has a future that don't end with a loss?

ravenmagus · Dec 30, 2013

Browd said:
Also Byz enhanced early (took the three major religious buildings) and beelined for a reformation belief (science buildings).

It's going to be hard to leverage getting faith buildings up AND using jesuit education without some severe faith generation of your own.

Browd · Dec 30, 2013

True, all too true. Earth Mother would have been helpful early on....

jko1 · Dec 31, 2013

Dude i gotta try this out

I mean there's 8 salt around and potentially all in your capital that is just insane

jko1 · Dec 31, 2013

oh my bad its 7 salt but still a lot of salt too say the least. Anyways can you tell me how you got national college and great library together in 41 turns. I don't have a lot of experience rushing early wonders and id like to know how you got it so fast. I wanna improve in that area for multiplier (were can actually compete for early stuff).

slowcar · Dec 31, 2013

jko1 said:
Anyways can you tell me how you got national college and great library together in 41 turns.

count the wood tiles and check his city size. he worked production tiles instead of growing and chopped a lot.
personally i don't think it's worth it in general, and on deity it is still quite a risk as the GL often goes before you even research writing, even if you beeline.

you get a free tech (maybe 10-15 turns of research) but cripple your empire growth-wise, don't have a caravan (4 science + friendship from sweden) and are not in a good position to build settlers.
sure, super-early theology is always nice as maya, but gambling with a maybe 20% success rate on the GL? What would you do if somebody else beat you to it? Reload?

YourHarry · Dec 31, 2013

How do you count the wood tiles? You mean, by loading the turn 0 save? I feel like with 7 salts, you don't have to sacrifice growth to get production. Well, he probably didn't have this knowledge, but taking 2 turns to move his settler northeast hill (right above the tile with 2 horses), will allow the capital to work all 7 salts. AND have access to 2 horse tiles (total of 6 horses), a deer, and a sheep. Not to mention on river, on a hill, and like 9 riverside farms. That this is a legendary start is an understatement

Maybe instead of GL to get a library then a settler (should be quick with all those improved salts), beeline to Theology, settle next to desert hills, pump population with caravan if reachable, get a free GE from mayan calendar, and rush Petra.

Gustavus Rex · Dec 31, 2013

Browd said:
There's something wrong with your screenshot links, but I opened the turn 41 save.

I think you squandered the only reason you might consider rushing GL/NC on Deity with the Mayans -- to get turn 51 Theology, to maximize the benefits of the Mayan UA. Here, you have an early NC, but have beelined Construction, rather than Theology, with no experienced Atlalists to upgrade to CBs. And that rush left you with a 3-pop city at turn 41, so your tech rate is still relatively poor.

Your social policy and pantheon choices are also suboptimal -- Tradition to Oligarchy (for the GL and NC construction boost) and then the Liberty opener (presumably aiming for the free settler policy), and Monument to the Gods for your pantheon (with 3 salt, Earth Mother would have been better long term).

In short, I think you crippled yourself to get an early NC, with little tangible benefit. Also, the Swedes settled their second city in your direction, and the Shoshone are about to settle their third city in your direction. Doesn't look good.

EDIT: Played forward a number of turns (couldn't resist). There are still a few settlement spots, but Petra went quickly (as usual on Deity), so maybe there's room for a couple of more decent cities. Could strain to put a city next to Kilimanjaro, but it will suck for production and will only irritate Pocatello. The one saving grace is that everyone hates Attila, so diplo isolation is an option. Also Byz enhanced early (took the three major religious buildings) and beelined for a reformation belief (science buildings). I want her religion, so I would be inclined to choose interfaith dialogue and cheap missionaries to get a short term science boost until her religion sweeps the map.

Thanks for playing! Yeah, 100% of my efforts was to get the GL. Tradition, patheon etc. The plan was to go all libery from there and tro to settle fast. I belined construction in paranoia over the presence of Attila.

This is my second Maya-game. I should probably, as you say, aim straight for theology and pump out more atlalists instead. Also, knowing more, I regret going liberty over full tradition.

As my first game turned out all AI except America kept on equal level with lots of backstabbing making this a very entertaining map.

Denkt said:
I used your 41 turn save and have played to turn 91

First I changed the tech path from construction to theology (finished the wheel) to get the ua online.

The capital built I think 2 atlatls and then two settlers.

Took free worker hoked up resources which I mostly sold for gold.

City two and three both built monuments.

Teched for second and third trade routes then to education.

Bribed sweden with lux to friendship and got friends with alot of ai's only basicly Atila is not my friend but he got others to beat right now.

Chosed GS first then GG for citadel because Portugal covered my lands however now she seams to become my friend.

Im planing to tech Acustics (don't know how to spell that tech) after education to hit renisance so I can go rationalism.

With all friendship I can get alot of resarch agrements to help my tech.

I plan to atleast try to get porcline tower with a GE and use GW to speed up rationalism and artist for golden ages.

I posted the save, do you think it has a future that don't end with a loss?

Thanks for playing. I'm not really a Deity-player so I leave all good advice to others. :crazyeye:

I think it's a good plan to go for science. Making the effort for a culture-win didn't turn out that good for me in the end.

jko1 said:
oh my bad its 7 salt but still a lot of salt too say the least. Anyways can you tell me how you got national college and great library together in 41 turns. I don't have a lot of experience rushing early wonders and id like to know how you got it so fast. I wanna improve in that area for multiplier (were can actually compete for early stuff).

I did not plan to build GL since its Deity and as far as I knew it's more or less impossible but when I got lucky and got culture and writing from a ancient ruins I decided to give it a try.

I build a worker instead of pyramid, researched mining, started chop wood, researched calendar, got wonderboost from tradition, bought a pyramid and got wonder-boost patheon. I think I got GL on turn 29. philosophy for free and then I continued chop wood till NC was done.

slowcar said:
count the wood tiles and check his city size. he worked production tiles instead of growing and chopped a lot.
personally i don't think it's worth it in general, and on deity it is still quite a risk as the GL often goes before you even research writing, even if you beeline.

you get a free tech (maybe 10-15 turns of research) but cripple your empire growth-wise, don't have a caravan (4 science + friendship from sweden) and are not in a good position to build settlers.
sure, super-early theology is always nice as maya, but gambling with a maybe 20% success rate on the GL? What would you do if somebody else beat you to it? Reload?

No reason to lie about it. :crazyeye:

If my effort would have failed I probably had quit or maybe reloaded the map for another start. It was all the perfect circumstances that made me go for it!

Kouvb593kdnuewnd · Dec 31, 2013

jko1 said:
oh my bad its 7 salt but still a lot of salt too say the least. Anyways can you tell me how you got national college and great library together in 41 turns. I don't have a lot of experience rushing early wonders and id like to know how you got it so fast. I wanna improve in that area for multiplier (were can actually compete for early stuff).

Settled on gem hill I think.

Built sout first teched mining got pottery for free and maybe writing to plus Culture form a ruin allowing tradition without a monument and then picking aristocracy.

Sold gems built pyramid pucased worker who prechoped forest for Great libary.
choped alot of forest while working on Great libary by getting as much production as possible.

Picked philosphy as free Tech and Went stragith to NC still choping and prodution focus.

Basicly to get the Great liberay you need to have alot of forest and get free key techs.

BBMorti · Dec 31, 2013

That 7 salt location is too funny

I just tried it out and build Stonehenge at turn 34'ish, without sacrificing growth, I would go that route instead of the GL. 14 faith pr turn as soon as you have 7 pop is bound to add explosion to this already epic start.
I quit when I had Oracle, 4 cities and CI a little after turn 98'ish, nuts. I assume you didn't get this start on your first try? haha

Gustavus Rex · Dec 31, 2013

BBMorti said:
That 7 salt location is too funny

I just tried it out and build Stonehenge at turn 34'ish, without sacrificing growth, I would go that route instead of the GL. 14 faith pr turn as soon as you have 7 pop is bound to add explosion to this already epic start.
I quit when I had Oracle, 4 cities and CI a little after turn 98'ish, nuts. I assume you didn't get this start on your first try? haha

Haha no.

I can't complain on my first start though. It turned out good, I got 4 citys up in decent locations and was a competitor for victory to the bitter end. The only thing I really, really didn't like from the start was going libery. Also I regret trying to keep upp with religion instead of caving in to Theodora.

I suck at warfare...

kb27787 · Dec 31, 2013

my goodness... talk about capitol misplacement... (shift your cap a few tiles to the right and earth mother then holy warriors will take care of every thing that could possibly go wrong early game)

Kouvb593kdnuewnd · Dec 31, 2013

kb27787 said:
my goodness... talk about capitol misplacement... (shift your cap a few tiles to the right and earth mother then holy warriors will take care of every thing that could possibly go wrong early game)

But would you get the Libery so soon if you even get it?

Gustavus Rex · Jan 1, 2014

kb27787 said:
my goodness... talk about capitol misplacement... (shift your cap a few tiles to the right and earth mother then holy warriors will take care of every thing that could possibly go wrong early game)

Yes, well.. I settled in turn 2 before I saw all salt. salt, gem, forest and silk looked good enough at the time.

Browd · Jan 1, 2014

Where to settle depends on where you send your worker on turn 1. Go north and the optimal settlement site is immediately obvious. Move elsewhere => not so obvious.

_megafone_ · Jan 2, 2014

T289 SV. Pretty straightforward, but, just to try something different, I filled up the Piety tree, and went Messiah to see how well a Holy Site-spam strategy worked. To The Glory of God is nice when you make 100+ fpt. Seemed pretty cool, taking the stink off the Piety tree (at least for me), and I'll test the strat on harder maps later on.

By the way, the map is easy, but not as easy as it looks: Portugal, Sweden AND the Shoshone are formidable AI civs, and it took me a lot of maneuvering to make them hate each other and keep looking away from my stupidly powerful cities. I got lucky that Pocatello DoW'd me out of the blue by turn 150 or so, getting hated by the other neighbors in the process AND giving me a free Prophet, heh. Attila is the least of your problems, as he's a lot easier to buy off

Gustavus Rex · Jan 3, 2014

_megafone_ said:
T289 SV. Pretty straightforward, but, just to try something different, I filled up the Piety tree, and went Messiah to see how well a Holy Site-spam strategy worked. To The Glory of God is nice when you make 100+ fpt. Seemed pretty cool, taking the stink off the Piety tree (at least for me), and I'll test the strat on harder maps later on.

By the way, the map is easy, but not as easy as it looks: Portugal, Sweden AND the Shoshone are formidable AI civs, and it took me a lot of maneuvering to make them hate each other and keep looking away from my stupidly powerful cities. I got lucky that Pocatello DoW'd me out of the blue by turn 150 or so, getting hated by the other neighbors in the process AND giving me a free Prophet, heh. Attila is the least of your problems, as he's a lot easier to buy off

Good job!

Cool with piety. I what order did you fill the SP-tree? Did you fill out tradition/liberty as well? With ideology?

Memoryjar · Jan 3, 2014

_megafone_ said:
To The Glory of God is nice when you make 100+ fpt. Seemed pretty cool, taking the stink off the Piety tree (at least for me), and I'll test the strat on harder maps later on.

Interesting. You went full piety and rationalism, or just to reformation beliefs and ratio ?

Deity challenge - Pacal turn 41 NC... Then what?

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