I think we should continue the discussion of adding new religions to the mod in a separate thread.
The way I see it, there are two prime arguments for the inclusion of further religions:
- to provide an obstacle and a realistic alternative to the spread of existing religions in specific regions and for specific civilizations
- to allow civilizations that do not get or only later get an existing religion to interact with the religion mechanic
I want to be careful here, because I disagree that every native ethnic religion of every civilization needs to be represented as a religion in game terms (some suggestions were made that went in that direction). For the time being, I found most of those adequately represented by either Animism + no state religion and the Pantheon civic. However, in many situations that presents us with the problems listed above.
Most of the new religions fall into the category of ethnic religions, in that they were mostly practiced by one or two civilizations. I'm going to include arguments for their inclusion in each case.
Olympianism, Pesedjet, Annunaki: Greece, Egypt and Babylonia respectively. Olympianism is special in that it was also practiced in Rome. They're worth including to better delineate cultural spheres in the ancient Mediterranean and a better distribution of ancient wonders. Together they also make the Pantheon civic mostly unnecessary, and make strategies for other civs that rely on these wonders mostly impossible.
Shinto: Ethnic religion in Japan, more accurate than Buddhist state religion Japan. Would also create a more interesting interaction with Buddhism and Christianity in Japan (not that Christianity currently spreads there, but it's a future possibility).
Tengrism: Ethnic religion of both Turkic and Mongol ethnic groups. Currently the Mongols are the only ingame civ to whom this religion would apply, but there are long term plans to include other Central Asian civs that would benefit from its inclusion, such as the Turks or Uzbeks.
Teotl and Inti: Ethnic religions for the Aztecs and Inca, considering their similar beliefs Teotl could apply to the Maya as well. Worth including for their wonders and to provide an obstacle for the spread of Christianity, especially in association with the Aztec UHV.
(Note: please let us not argue about names and labels again in this thread, these are things that can be easily changed once everything else is decided. I'm aware that for instance Inti is only the name of the supreme Inca god, but for lack of better alternatives that I'm aware of I still prefer it to clunky descriptive terms like "Inca Mythology".)
You could argue that Zoroastrianism, Confucianism, Taoism and Hinduism also constitute ethnic religions that are closely associated with the civilizations that originated them. However, considering the influence of Hinduism in Indochina and Indonesia, and the influence of Confucianism in East Asia, I'd say only Zoroastrianism and Taoism should be regarded as the ethnic religions of Persia and China.
Then we have religions never adopted as state religion by any civilization in the game. I will label these "minority religions":
Judaism: Worth including both for its role in the origins of Islam and Christianity, as well as the historical role of Jewish minorities in Europe and the Middle East
Sikhism and Jainism: Minority religions in India, might be interesting for a new Indian UHV goal. Sikhism already has a wonder associated with it, and is in general very interesting because it differs in many ways from the other religions.
Lastly, there have been proposals of expanding on the existing religions:
Christianity: this religion could exist as a pre-schism version of Christianity that ceases to exist as soon as Catholicism and Orthodoxy emerge. This would avoid the awkwardness of choosing either Catholicism or Orthodoxy to represent early Christianity.
Shia Islam: along with a relabeling of Islam to Sunni Islam, introducing this Muslim sect would provide additional religious diversity to the late Middle East and create some political tension, especially in the context of Iran.
All in all, I find these categories much more helpful than talking about "minor religions". Before we can talk about how these new religions could differ from existing "major" religions, let us examine what these religions offer in terms of game play:
In my opinion, ethnic religions should mostly offer the same benefits you could currently get from civics and buildings without a state religion. Therefore, I think they should work like this:
The "special building" would be equivalent to monasteries, but provide a bonus that is unique to the religion and become available and obsolete in different ways. In the long term, I want to completely move away from monasteries and give every religion their own unique building (monasteries becoming the unique building for Christian religions).
Ethnic religions would make up for the lack of missionaries by faster state religion spread inside their own borders.
As I said above, I could imagine that the same rules also apply to Zoroastrianism and Taoism.
Minority religions would mostly behave like ethnic religions, except that they cannot be adopted as a state religion, but instead can have a shrine.
Religion founding is another issue. Assuming all of these religions are included, there simply aren't enough techs to have a unique tech for each of them, and it will become next to impossible to arrange things in such a way that the "right" civs found the "right" religions in most games. Especially for ethnic religions such a situation would be highly unrealistic.
Instead, I'd constrain some religions not only to techs, but also geographical location. So the first civilization that discovers the tech for a religion with a city in the specified region would find it. I think in most cases, Polytheism is the right tech for most ethnic religions:
Hinduism: Polytheism + India
Zoroastrianism: Monotheism + Persia
Taoism: Literature + China
Annunaki: Polytheism + Mesopotamia
Pesedjet: Polytheism + Egypt
Olympianism: Polytheism + Greece
Shinto: Polytheism + Japan
Tengrism: Horseback Riding + Central Asia
Teotl: Polytheism + Central America
Inti: Polytheism + South America
For other civilizations, it is often nonsensical to spawn them without having a predecessor that it has branched off of. This mechanic is currently already utilized for Buddhism, Orthodoxy and Protestantism. The condition that can trigger such a "schism" could be potentially anything, and does not have to be a technology. For instance:
Judaism -> Christianity (Theology)
Christianity -> Catholicism
Christianity -> Orthodoxy
Catholicism -> Protestantism (Printing Press)
Taoism -> Confucianism (Code of Laws)
Hinduism -> Buddhism
Sunni Islam -> Shia Islam
That's it for the moment, more discussion is welcome.
(I know I've talked about religious "civics", special abilities and faith points in the other thread, but let's not pay too much attention to that until the basics are clear.)
The way I see it, there are two prime arguments for the inclusion of further religions:
- to provide an obstacle and a realistic alternative to the spread of existing religions in specific regions and for specific civilizations
- to allow civilizations that do not get or only later get an existing religion to interact with the religion mechanic
I want to be careful here, because I disagree that every native ethnic religion of every civilization needs to be represented as a religion in game terms (some suggestions were made that went in that direction). For the time being, I found most of those adequately represented by either Animism + no state religion and the Pantheon civic. However, in many situations that presents us with the problems listed above.
Most of the new religions fall into the category of ethnic religions, in that they were mostly practiced by one or two civilizations. I'm going to include arguments for their inclusion in each case.
Olympianism, Pesedjet, Annunaki: Greece, Egypt and Babylonia respectively. Olympianism is special in that it was also practiced in Rome. They're worth including to better delineate cultural spheres in the ancient Mediterranean and a better distribution of ancient wonders. Together they also make the Pantheon civic mostly unnecessary, and make strategies for other civs that rely on these wonders mostly impossible.
Shinto: Ethnic religion in Japan, more accurate than Buddhist state religion Japan. Would also create a more interesting interaction with Buddhism and Christianity in Japan (not that Christianity currently spreads there, but it's a future possibility).
Tengrism: Ethnic religion of both Turkic and Mongol ethnic groups. Currently the Mongols are the only ingame civ to whom this religion would apply, but there are long term plans to include other Central Asian civs that would benefit from its inclusion, such as the Turks or Uzbeks.
Teotl and Inti: Ethnic religions for the Aztecs and Inca, considering their similar beliefs Teotl could apply to the Maya as well. Worth including for their wonders and to provide an obstacle for the spread of Christianity, especially in association with the Aztec UHV.
(Note: please let us not argue about names and labels again in this thread, these are things that can be easily changed once everything else is decided. I'm aware that for instance Inti is only the name of the supreme Inca god, but for lack of better alternatives that I'm aware of I still prefer it to clunky descriptive terms like "Inca Mythology".)
You could argue that Zoroastrianism, Confucianism, Taoism and Hinduism also constitute ethnic religions that are closely associated with the civilizations that originated them. However, considering the influence of Hinduism in Indochina and Indonesia, and the influence of Confucianism in East Asia, I'd say only Zoroastrianism and Taoism should be regarded as the ethnic religions of Persia and China.
Then we have religions never adopted as state religion by any civilization in the game. I will label these "minority religions":
Judaism: Worth including both for its role in the origins of Islam and Christianity, as well as the historical role of Jewish minorities in Europe and the Middle East
Sikhism and Jainism: Minority religions in India, might be interesting for a new Indian UHV goal. Sikhism already has a wonder associated with it, and is in general very interesting because it differs in many ways from the other religions.
Lastly, there have been proposals of expanding on the existing religions:
Christianity: this religion could exist as a pre-schism version of Christianity that ceases to exist as soon as Catholicism and Orthodoxy emerge. This would avoid the awkwardness of choosing either Catholicism or Orthodoxy to represent early Christianity.
Shia Islam: along with a relabeling of Islam to Sunni Islam, introducing this Muslim sect would provide additional religious diversity to the late Middle East and create some political tension, especially in the context of Iran.
All in all, I find these categories much more helpful than talking about "minor religions". Before we can talk about how these new religions could differ from existing "major" religions, let us examine what these religions offer in terms of game play:
- +1 happiness in cities
- +1 culture in cities
- diplomatic bonus with civs of the same state religion
- diplomatic malus with civs of a different state religion
- access to Temple, Monastery, Cathedral
- access to Missionaries
- holy city + access to Shrine
- access to wonders
In my opinion, ethnic religions should mostly offer the same benefits you could currently get from civics and buildings without a state religion. Therefore, I think they should work like this:
- NO extra state religion happiness
- +1 culture in cities
- no common diplomatic bonus
- only access to Temple + special building
- NO missionaries
- holy city, but no shrines
- access to wonders
The "special building" would be equivalent to monasteries, but provide a bonus that is unique to the religion and become available and obsolete in different ways. In the long term, I want to completely move away from monasteries and give every religion their own unique building (monasteries becoming the unique building for Christian religions).
Ethnic religions would make up for the lack of missionaries by faster state religion spread inside their own borders.
As I said above, I could imagine that the same rules also apply to Zoroastrianism and Taoism.
Minority religions would mostly behave like ethnic religions, except that they cannot be adopted as a state religion, but instead can have a shrine.
Religion founding is another issue. Assuming all of these religions are included, there simply aren't enough techs to have a unique tech for each of them, and it will become next to impossible to arrange things in such a way that the "right" civs found the "right" religions in most games. Especially for ethnic religions such a situation would be highly unrealistic.
Instead, I'd constrain some religions not only to techs, but also geographical location. So the first civilization that discovers the tech for a religion with a city in the specified region would find it. I think in most cases, Polytheism is the right tech for most ethnic religions:
Hinduism: Polytheism + India
Zoroastrianism: Monotheism + Persia
Taoism: Literature + China
Annunaki: Polytheism + Mesopotamia
Pesedjet: Polytheism + Egypt
Olympianism: Polytheism + Greece
Shinto: Polytheism + Japan
Tengrism: Horseback Riding + Central Asia
Teotl: Polytheism + Central America
Inti: Polytheism + South America
For other civilizations, it is often nonsensical to spawn them without having a predecessor that it has branched off of. This mechanic is currently already utilized for Buddhism, Orthodoxy and Protestantism. The condition that can trigger such a "schism" could be potentially anything, and does not have to be a technology. For instance:
Judaism -> Christianity (Theology)
Christianity -> Catholicism
Christianity -> Orthodoxy
Catholicism -> Protestantism (Printing Press)
Taoism -> Confucianism (Code of Laws)
Hinduism -> Buddhism
Sunni Islam -> Shia Islam
That's it for the moment, more discussion is welcome.
(I know I've talked about religious "civics", special abilities and faith points in the other thread, but let's not pay too much attention to that until the basics are clear.)
. Let minority religions be state religions if the player (or rarely the AI) so desires since it could give extra strategies and gameplay options. Granted, most of the following are in-game civs, but there are some historical precedents for these religions as state religions:
