Religion Expansion

[Hightower]

One concern about the Sunni-Shia split as described in the posts I've seen so far is that it seems to be planned far too late. The split happened almost right away, within 50 years of the founding of Islam, which makes it really hard to model properly. Also, the current civilizations in the game do a poor job of representing Sunni and Shia tensions before later Iran (though a respawn of Egypt as the Fatimids might help with that issue; they could become the Ayyubids if they converted to Sunni Islam).

I would like to see a more subtle use of the concept of holy cities as well, so that more than one city could be the holy city of a faith (e.g., Jerusalem and Rome for Catholicism, or Jerusalem and Mecca for Sunni, or Baghdad [representing Karbala] and Mecca for Shia). This could also allow Protestantism to not have a holy city, which I think is the most realistic modeling. Can't think of another religion with no clear religious center, but one might come to me. Perhaps Confucianism--though base RFC's choice of Qufu as the holy city for Confucianism and Taoism doesn't seem wrong to me, even if Qufu is otherwise a not-very-important Chinese city.

 

[MechatronicJazz]

On Shia Islam, I did a quick search on Wikipedia and apparently quite a few places that are now majority Sunni were initially Shia states. Morocco under the Idrisids, the Bahmanis in southern India, and the Fatamids in Egypt (as mentioned already).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shia_Islam#History

So here's a suggestion:
Have Shia founded at approximately the historical time a few turns after Sunni, but with a very slow spread rate, expect maybe in areas that adopted it early. Then, if a civ that should switch from one sect to the other collapses and re-spawns, give the flipped cites with the old religion a certain chance of switching to the new one. It would work kind of like the reformation mechanic. Persia/Iran would retain a preference for Shia.

 

[calad]

In my opinion, ethnic religions should mostly offer the same benefits you could currently get from civics and buildings without a state religion. Therefore, I think they should work like this:

• NO extra state religion happiness
• +1 culture in cities
• no common diplomatic bonus
• only access to Temple + special building
• NO missionaries
• holy city, but no shrines
• access to wonders

This proposition has been influenced by CK2 but how about it would be possible to reform ethnic religion with Great Prophets and with other Great People? Shinto and Sikhims can be thought to be reformed and when religion is reformed it becomes more like main religion and loses some of its disadvantages.

 

[merijn_v1]

I foresee that someone will update the religion advisor and possibly the pedia page when the new mechanics are introduced...

 

[Leoreth]

That's it! Make it that a player can found any religion with a great prophet, but don't give this ability to the AI. Just add tech requirements (or something) so that Islam won't be founded by players in 2500 BC.

I'm not sure I like the region-lock technology - too restrictive. I say everything has to have a root religion, and then the first person with a city with that religion to research that tech gets it. This is still human abusable (rampage into somewhere else, spread with missionaries then get the tech) but left to the AI it will almost certainly fall correctly. I like the great prophet idea, too.

How about this: when you research the tech for a religion and are in the "right" region for it, you get the religion immediately as usual. All the other religions that have been unlocked that way can be founded using Great Prophets.

On Shia Islam, I did a quick search on Wikipedia and apparently quite a few places that are now majority Sunni were initially Shia states. Morocco under the Idrisids, the Bahmanis in southern India, and the Fatamids in Egypt (as mentioned already).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shia_Islam#History

So here's a suggestion:
Have Shia founded at approximately the historical time a few turns after Sunni, but with a very slow spread rate, expect maybe in areas that adopted it early. Then, if a civ that should switch from one sect to the other collapses and re-spawns, give the flipped cites with the old religion a certain chance of switching to the new one. It would work kind of like the reformation mechanic. Persia/Iran would retain a preference for Shia.

Even if Shia is implemented as a split off of Sunni Islam, I was imagining a condition that makes it happen quite early, such as the first great person born in a Sunni city.

But generally I agree that the case for Shia Islam still isn't very strong.

This proposition has been influenced by CK2 but how about it would be possible to reform ethnic religion with Great Prophets and with other Great People? Shinto and Sikhims can be thought to be reformed and when religion is reformed it becomes more like main religion and loses some of its disadvantages.

Interesting idea, will think about it.

 

[Panopticon]

One concern about the Sunni-Shia split as described in the posts I've seen so far is that it seems to be planned far too late. The split happened almost right away, within 50 years of the founding of Islam, which makes it really hard to model properly. Also, the current civilizations in the game do a poor job of representing Sunni and Shia tensions before later Iran (though a respawn of Egypt as the Fatimids might help with that issue; they could become the Ayyubids if they converted to Sunni Islam).

I would like to see a more subtle use of the concept of holy cities as well, so that more than one city could be the holy city of a faith (e.g., Jerusalem and Rome for Catholicism, or Jerusalem and Mecca for Sunni, or Baghdad [representing Karbala] and Mecca for Shia). This could also allow Protestantism to not have a holy city, which I think is the most realistic modeling. Can't think of another religion with no clear religious center, but one might come to me. Perhaps Confucianism--though base RFC's choice of Qufu as the holy city for Confucianism and Taoism doesn't seem wrong to me, even if Qufu is otherwise a not-very-important Chinese city.

I wonder if the Sunni-Shia split is required. Were there important wars and diplomatic tensions between Persia and other Islamic states, that were categorically different to those among the Sunni?

As Hightower suggests, these disagreements were doctrinal and therefore often involved switching of political elites between Sunni and Shia rather than religious disagreements among populations affiliated to those sects (comparable to the switching emphases on Confucianist/Buddhist/Taoist ideas among elites in China, or Confucianist/Buddhist/Shinto in Japan).

I would rethink holy cities a lot. They make sense in plain BTS: you race to found a religion; you have to sacrifice materially-rewarding techs; but you gain the possibility of a holy city that makes lots of gold later. In DOC, you don't race but you can still easily get the benefits because of the rise and fall mechanic. So a ridiculous number of strategies are "get the Christian/Hindu/Buddhist holy city, spend the money on your crazy plan to win or rule the world".

 

[ales_]

What about making ethnic religions founded by the spawn of the civ? Won't make a big difference.

 

[Leoreth]

In many cases that would be accurate, but especially to allow someone else to found the religion there needs to be some actual rule behind it.

 

[BarbarianX]

I've been thinking about the minor religions, now what if once you adopted them as stae religion it offered some malus, like +2 per other religions in your cities and bigger opinion malus with civs of another religion?

 

[LacsiraxAriscal]

Eh, I like the first idea, but I don't see anyone hating on the Jains. Maybe Jewish nations should incur diplomatic penalties - they haven't exactly seen much friendliness in history after all (watch me try to toe the Israel line as best as I can... must not start political argument must not start political argument)

 

[DC123456789]

I don't see why Jews should have extra diplomatic penalties above whatever is normal.

 

[2015]

Yeah lets not give special treatment to Judaism in regards to penalties. That being said, religions "native" to a civilization or "minor" religions maybe only should be adopted by the human? Like if a human Greece takes over Babylon, they can adopt Babylon's religion but if AI Greece does, they wont be able to. This would help for players who love to win religious victories with odd civs (me)!

And I don't like the idea of Christianity as being a term for all 3 faiths. I think the system right now is much nicer (no need for a whole broad religion to be wiped out)

 

[phoenix_sprite]

Early Christianity should work the way protestantism works in regards to Judaism. It should replace Judaism in all but large cities, with Christianity being spread to the city on top of Judaism with exceptions being given to Jerusalem. I do not think Christianity should have a technological requirement, it should automatically be founded in Jerusalem around the year 30-50 AD, spreading rapidly to surrounding cities and within the Roman Empire; thus requiring a change in Ethiopia's UHV condition.

Additionally, early Christianity should be easily spread within its historical regions (Mediterranean, Levant and Mesopotamia). If a civ adopts Christianity, converting from their ethnic religion, all cities with the ethnic religion should have it replaced with Christianity and a temple (monastery) if the prerequisite building was present in the city. It doesn't need to be an instant conversion, but a 5 turn maximum would be realistic.

Edit: IMHO, Catholicism should not be funded until either Theology is discovered by a Christian civ, or Byzantium spawns, in which case, it founds the religion upon spawn, a bit like Islam and Arabia currently.

Edit #2: Civs that have not adopted Christianity as their state religion should not be given the option to convert their Christian cities to Catholicism, and they should remain 'Christian' until the founding of Orthodoxy, where these cities would have a high chance of converting from 'Christian' to 'Orthodox'. This would give more historical flavour since Eastern Christianity is often considered 'Orthodox'.

Edit #3: Additionally, if a Catholic, Orthodox or Protestant civ conquers a city with 'Christianity' in it, it should convert it to its form of Christianity. Just to snuff out antiquated religions without having to spend hammers to get rid of it. This would give the Roman Empire a chance to become Catholic after the spawn of other European civs in the case that Rome did not adopt Christianity by the time Byzantium spawned, collapsed prior or Byzantium not spawning at all.

Edit #4: My oh my! This is unrelated to the prior post, but using a Great Merchant's trade mission should have a chance to spread the originator's religion to that city. This would give the spread of 'odd' religions a more natural feel. Such as Christianity or Islam being present in India (pre-Mughals) and China. It could also offer some interesting strategies to the player.

 

[BenZL43]

Yeah, but I have no idea how to cast this into rules. I think historically the fact that Roman Polytheism was displaced by Christianity while Shinto remained when faced with Buddhism has more to do with Christianity and Buddhism than with Roman Polytheism and Shinto.

Actually, while Paganism is "officially" left behind, in some part of the world, especially Asia, it still exist in some form and in modern sense defined as part of a culture or philosophy. Rather than removing them altogether with a 'major' religion, I will suggest making them obsolete but still acknowledged.

In the OP it is mentioned that there will be a special building specific to an ethnic religion, I think the effect should play with this building.

a) Synergism effect
Spread of a major religion enhance/reform the original ethnic religion - unlocking new effects or at least do not wipe it out. Example: also mentioned above by TD that Shinto already existed but do not become organized/structured until the influences of Taoism/Confucianism on the island. Shinto's
special building require either Confucianism/Buddhism to be built and have effect

This effect applies to: Shinto, Taoism, Sikhism, Tengrism, Teotl, Inti, Judaism

b)Antagonism effect
Spread of a major religion diminished the original ethnic religion - obsoleting the effects.
Example: Upon Christianity spread to the city, the special building for Olympianism ceased to give any effect (but can also yield +1 culture with Mass Media, maybe? Neopaganism, Romanticism revival etc). Wonders, special buildings and temple are no longer buildable. The icon stays, unless the civilization adopt Theocracy / get wiped by Arabia's UP.

This effect applies to: Zoroastrianism, Olympianism, Pesedjet, Annunaki

I think Jainism scope is too small in DoC scope to be represented.

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P.S.: This might seems trivial, but some religion's name are derived from a name still highly revered and sanctified in my part of the world (Asia), such as Buddhism come from Siddharta (Buddha) Gautama. Please respect and do not abbreviate the name of the religion, no matter how unimportant it might seem. The same should apply to all religion - for example I won't be happy if I am a Muslim and someone abbreviate my religion to just I or Isl.

 

[ozqar]

I really like the idea about Great Merchants having some chances of spreading the religion of their original city to the one where they conduct the trade mission.

Otherwise, I think it would be better if there's just an undifferentiated "Christianity" religion at the start, and then when there's the Catholic-Orthodox schism all cities must become one or the other (Eastern Christianity joining the Orthodox religion, of course). This way we avoid any controversial arguments about which one was first, more legitimate or anything of the like, and it's a simple mechanic in the game. Also, the foundation of the Byzantine Empire is not the same as the schism of the churches, so the byzantine spawn wouldn't be an ideal moment to trigger the split (besides, the byzantines are a conditional spawn).

About the spread of Christianity, though, I must say that most early Christian converts were not Jewish. Instead, the bulk of early Christians converted from Hellenism (the Roman version). However, both religions coexisted in the Roman Empire for at least three centuries, so I wouldn't favor the automatic (or 5 turns after) replacement mechanic. A better representation would be to give Hellenism a disappearance rate, so it slowly dies out. This rate should be increased if/when Christianity becomes a state religion.

 

[LacsiraxAriscal]

I don't see why Jews should have extra diplomatic penalties above whatever is normal.

I don't mean above normal, heavens no :O But like there is obviously a spectrum where the Buddhist and Hindu civs don't dislike each other that much and the Christian and Muslims have massive penalties... just saying maybe it should be over in that spectrum than the previous one. I'm very sorry for any offense, I really am not trying to

Like I guess more what I'm trying to say is that Jainism/Sikhism should probably incur lower diplomatic penalties if anything, rather than higher ones.

 

[phoenix_sprite]

Actually, while Paganism is "officially" left behind, in some part of the world, especially Asia, it still exist in some form and in modern sense defined as part of a culture or philosophy. Rather than removing them altogether with a 'major' religion, I will suggest making them obsolete but still acknowledged.

I disagree, while many people are pagans today, there is a clear distinction between ancient pagans and neo-pagans. For gameplay reasons, there is no place for paganism past the Renaissance period.

In the OP it is mentioned that there will be a special building specific to an ethnic religion, I think the effect should play with this building.

a) Synergism effect
Spread of a major religion enhance/reform the original ethnic religion - unlocking new effects or at least do not wipe it out. Example: also mentioned above by TD that Shinto already existed but do not become organized/structured until the influences of Taoism/Confucianism on the island. Shinto's
special building require either Confucianism/Buddhism to be built and have effect

This effect applies to: Shinto, Taoism, Sikhism, Tengrism, Teotl, Inti, Judaism

This is a good idea, and is called syncretism. It should be implemented as an early civic, giving a civ ONE additional bonus and reducing the penalty (50%?) from the second largest religion in that empire.

b)Antagonism effect
Spread of a major religion diminished the original ethnic religion - obsoleting the effects.
Example: Upon Christianity spread to the city, the special building for Olympianism ceased to give any effect (but can also yield +1 culture with Mass Media, maybe? Neopaganism, Romanticism revival etc). Wonders, special buildings and temple are no longer buildable. The icon stays, unless the civilization adopt Theocracy / get wiped by Arabia's UP.

This effect applies to: Zoroastrianism, Olympianism, Pesedjet, Annunaki

I discussed this in my previous post, it should be in effect, almost the same way Islam spreads upon conquest when done by Arabia and the Seljuks.

I think Jainism scope is too small in DoC scope to be represented.

I think the precursor to Hinduism should be Brahmanism. With Sikhism being included as a minor religion over Jainism. Unless Leoreth can manage to add it without conflicting too much with Hinduism and Buddhism.

 

[phoenix_sprite]

I really like the idea about Great Merchants having some chances of spreading the religion of their original city to the one where they conduct the trade mission.

Otherwise, I think it would be better if there's just an undifferentiated "Christianity" religion at the start, and then when there's the Catholic-Orthodox schism all cities must become one or the other (Eastern Christianity joining the Orthodox religion, of course). This way we avoid any controversial arguments about which one was first, more legitimate or anything of the like, and it's a simple mechanic in the game. Also, the foundation of the Byzantine Empire is not the same as the schism of the churches, so the byzantine spawn wouldn't be an ideal moment to trigger the split (besides, the byzantines are a conditional spawn).

About the spread of Christianity, though, I must say that most early Christian converts were not Jewish. Instead, the bulk of early Christians converted from Hellenism (the Roman version). However, both religions coexisted in the Roman Empire for at least three centuries, so I wouldn't favor the automatic (or 5 turns after) replacement mechanic. A better representation would be to give Hellenism a disappearance rate, so it slowly dies out. This rate should be increased if/when Christianity becomes a state religion.

I forgot to add Hellenism to the equation, you're right. However Christianity did outgrow Judaism quite rapidly, which is why I suggested the spread of Christianity to cities with Judaism present. Interfaith fighting was also common in large cities, see: Alexandria. Just for game mechanics, it would be easier for Christianity to entirely replace Judaism and assorted mythos. Again Alexandria, if Christianity, Hellenism and Judaism were present, they would represented at 33/33/33 ratio, which is really not accurate.

As for the Orthodoxy vs Catholicism argument, sure, but Christianity was not really united at all until the Nicene Creed. For game mechanics, I still think Orthodoxy should be founded once the AP is built or by 325 AD in Constantinople.

Also, in civ, 5 turns can be really ambiguous, it can represent 500 years or 25 years. Just a thought.

 

[ozqar]

I forgot to add Hellenism to the equation, you're right. However Christianity did outgrow Judaism quite rapidly, which is why I suggested the spread of Christianity to cities with Judaism present. Interfaith fighting was also common in large cities, see: Alexandria. Just for game mechanics, it would be easier for Christianity to entirely replace Judaism and assorted mythos. Again Alexandria, if Christianity, Hellenism and Judaism were present, they would represented at 33/33/33 ratio, which is really not accurate.

Perhaps it could be possible that population is not split evenly among three religions, but that it depends on which they are? In the Alexandria example, we could have 30% Christian, 50% Hellenic, 20% Jewish (or whatever other combination, I just made up the numbers). This would be a midpoint between Christianity wiping out Judaism (inaccurate) and them being equally popular (also inaccurate). I have no idea if this is possible, though.

As for the Orthodoxy vs Catholicism argument, sure, but Christianity was not really united at all until the Nicene Creed. For game mechanics, I still think Orthodoxy should be founded once the AP is built or by 325 AD in Constantinople.

Yeah, I don't mind much what is the founding event, date or condition that starts Catholicism and/or Orthodoxy, I was just saying that I wouldn't like us to take a position where we say one was the "original" one and the other was the "split-off" one. Given the circumstances of the schism, we would be sort of saying that either Rome or Constantinople are more legitimate as head of the church. Those guys haven't figured that out in 1500 years, I don't think we will do much in an internet forum.

Also, Hinduism is a completely not-unified religion, with several main branches (4 if I'm not mistaken?) and tons of smaller ones, but we represent it as a single entity for convenience... and because as westerners we have been taught to approach it as a single thing, of course, but that's a different story. Point being, that we shouldn't consider whether Christianity was unified before the schism when deciding if we can consider all of it to be the same religion (in civ terms).

Also, in civ, 5 turns can be really ambiguous, it can represent 500 years or 25 years. Just a thought.

Yeah, of course. I don't have my windows computer with me at the moment, and can't really check how many years takes each turn between 1AD and 380AD. I say this date because it's the Edict of Thessalonika - I would think that Hellenism should be around (if moribund) at least until then.

 

[ales_]

Also, Hinduism is a completely not-unified religion, with several main branches (4 if I'm not mistaken?) and tons of smaller ones, but we represent it as a single entity for convenience... and because as westerners we have been taught to approach it as a single thing, of course, but that's a different story.

We represent it as one religion because there is a small number of Hindu civs (2).