G-Minor XCVIII

While the general Hall of Fame is an ongoing competition, we like to run time-definite competitions between updates that we call Gauntlets. Standard Hall of Fame rules (*) still apply, but any games meeting the settings will be counted towards the Gauntlet.


Settings:

• Expansion: Brave New World
• Victory Condition: Science (though all victory conditions must be enabled)
• Difficulty: Warlord
• Map Size: Small
• Map Type: Great Plains
• Speed: Standard
• Leader: Rome (Augustus Caesar)
• Opponents: Any
• Version: SV8
• Date: 1st to 16th April 2015

The earliest finish date wins, with score as a tiebreaker.

Nice. There aren't many interesting Rome tables on HoF, this should help.

Tech costs are lower on Small, so I'm hoping for a sub-200 here. This difficulty/size combo should also allow for a very late GL, and pretty much all the other wonders as well.

This map is indeed extremely friendly. I wouldn't be at all surprised to see someone put up a sub-200 time. I won my attempt on Turn 218.

Policy costs are at 85% on Warlord, so I figured it would be a good situation for Tradition-Liberty mix. I did Tradition Opener --> Liberty to Representation --> fill out Tradition. I think I spent too much time in Liberty, and should have just gone straight back to Tradition after Collective Rule. Gotta get those Aqueducts up faster...

Went Order because of lower gold on this difficulty. I had five Great Engineers, and actually could've won faster by buying a sixth one instead of two Great Scientists.

My endgame was definitely non-optimal, as you can see with the Hubble Space Telescope sitting one turn away from completion. I could've shaved three turns by totally ignoring the Hubble and starting to hard-built a part instead. Or If I had used multiple bulbs to get to Apollo earlier instead of building science for so long, I think I could've taken even more turns off the tech tree... but if I do that then I run into my Culture constraint... but then maybe I could've spent less policies in Liberty and gotten Culture done sooner... but then... You get the idea.

Anyway, I would generally describe my game as "a really nice Pasture game". Really good hammers early everywhere from Stables, and I had God of the Open Sky so border growth was incredible. My capital was merely pretty good, but my Antium was amazing. Antium had seven Pastures, infinite fresh water, Uluru, and THREE unique luxuries. One of the strongest non-capital cities I've ever had, I think.

I'm having a pretty decent run, not sure which ideology to pick though. I can get 7 coal from a CS, and Order will likely allow me to buy all Research Labs instantly, get factories up very quickly and rush 2 or 3 parts. Freedom will allow me to focus on growth and rush 4 parts most likely. Hmmm.



I've been actually running out of happiness on Warlord. That's a first... Not sure that taking Gao and Marrakech was the best idea there, but we'll see.

vadalaz said:

I'm having a pretty decent run, not sure which ideology to pick though. I can get 7 coal from a CS, and Order will likely allow me to buy all Research Labs instantly, get factories up very quickly and rush 2 or 3 parts. Freedom will allow me to focus on growth and rush 4 parts most likely. Hmmm.

I've been actually running out of happiness on Warlord. That's a first... Not sure that taking Gao and Marrakech was the best idea there, but we'll see.

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Two cities next to mountains, including cap - i think this (at least cap next to the mountains) will be essential in this Gauntlet.

And i would take Freedom because, in my opinion, cities aren't big enough for optimal science finish.

BTW, side question: is there any limitation on number of food caravans that can be sent to one city? Is it two food caravans per city or is it less/more ?

You can send all your caravans to one city, as long as you have other cities with granaries or workshops to send those caravans from.

vadalaz said:

You can send all your caravans to one city, as long as you have other cities with granaries or workshops to send those caravans from.

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Thanks for clarification, Vadalaz! I guess the same also applies to cargo ships.

Yeah, it does.

Anyway, I got no aluminum in my 6 cities that cover 1/3 of the map, and CSs don't have any either. What are the odds? I was hoping for at least 3 aluminum for some quick Hydro plants - they're amazing on this map.

I went Order and it's looking like a t159 Plastics if I bulb a GS, t165-166 if I don't. Surely that can be finished in under 200 turns? I just hope I don't mess up now.

Edit: yup, Plastics t158, won on t195. Should've been 3 or 4 turns earlier, but I made a stupid mistake - I had a city building LToP with 2 turns left and after I hit next turn it got a railroad connection, so the wonder was completed, while I meant to leave it on 1 turn and build it later. That cost me a natural GE.

Don't think I would've been able to beat this result with Freedom, definitely not a t191 which I should've gotten. AIs had no gold at all and my gpt wasn't good enough, you need like 350-400 around the time you hit Plastics I think.

Bleidraner, top 20 on the Overall Gauntlet Board.

Morcar_omig, top 25

Great Job Guys,...Keep Going!!



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vadalaz said:

Yeah, it does.

Anyway, I got no aluminum in my 6 cities that cover 1/3 of the map, and CSs don't have any either. What are the odds? I was hoping for at least 3 aluminum for some quick Hydro plants - they're amazing on this map.

I went Order and it's looking like a t159 Plastics if I bulb a GS, t165-166 if I don't. Surely that can be finished in under 200 turns? I just hope I don't mess up now.

Edit: yup, Plastics t158, won on t195. Should've been 3 or 4 turns earlier, but I made a stupid mistake - I had a city building LToP with 2 turns left and after I hit next turn it got a railroad connection, so the wonder was completed, while I meant to leave it on 1 turn and build it later. That cost me a natural GE.

Don't think I would've been able to beat this result with Freedom, definitely not a t191 which I should've gotten. AIs had no gold at all and my gpt wasn't good enough, you need like 350-400 around the time you hit Plastics I think.

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OK, i found limitation finally. You can't send both food and hammer caravan from one city to another.

Great game, vadalaz! I haven't seen such a big rate of bpt before Currently have no idea how to beat this result - probably build/capture more cities could help.

chuckh89 said:

Bleidraner, top 20 on the Overall Gauntlet Board.

Morcar_omig, top 25

Great Job Guys,...Keep Going!!

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Thanks! Hope you catch up soon!

Thanks, it should be quite beatable though, my game was pretty messy. I got a REALLY late religion, had happiness issues for a couple of turns and missed a natural GE because I forgot I was building a railroad. Would've been a t189ish had I not made those mistakes.

Plus I got the GL somewhat early, t58 for Philo. Not entirely sure it's the right play, I'm inclined to think it is, but I'll try once more with an Astronomy GL or something to see how that plays out.

vadalaz said:

Thanks, it should be quite beatable though, my game was pretty messy. I got a REALLY late religion, had happiness issues for a couple of turns and missed a natural GE because I forgot I was building a railroad. Would've been a t189ish had I not made those mistakes.

Plus I got the GL somewhat early, t58 for Philo. Not entirely sure it's the right play, I'm inclined to think it is, but I'll try once more with an Astronomy GL or something to see how that plays out.

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You know, I've debated that a lot myself, and ultimately I think it's better to burn GL on Philosophy because of the GS points and the beakers/turn that you lose by delaying GL. I like to think of a free tech being worth turns, not beakers. If Philosophy is 16 turns of reasearch when you get GL, that's better than Theology even if it's 18 turns, because of those points/beakers you lost along the way. It would have to be a really expensive tech IMHO to compensate for that. I mean, if you get a t40ish GL, 3 beakers is 10-20% of your total beakers, maybe more. Even by t80 it's a significant percentage, at least 5% unless you're having an epic game.

Case in point, Education. You could delay it until Education but wouldn't that delay Education just as long in the end? I think there are exceptions, like maybe Settler Diplo where you complete GL after PP, or perhaps in Domination strategies to bulb Machinery, etc... In general, very infrequently are techs more expensive in *turns of research* than Philosophy. But I go back and forth on this.

Cromagnus said:

You know, I've debated that a lot myself, and ultimately I think it's better to burn GL on Philosophy because of the GS points and the beakers/turn that you lose by delaying GL. I like to think of a free tech being worth turns, not beakers. If Philosophy is 16 turns of reasearch when you get GL, that's better than Theology even if it's 18 turns, because of those points/beakers you lost along the way. It would have to be a really expensive tech IMHO to compensate for that. I mean, if you get a t40ish GL, 3 beakers is 10-20% of your total beakers, maybe more. Even by t80 it's a significant percentage, at least 5% unless you're having an epic game.

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Yeah, that was exactly my reasoning for getting Philo with it. Philo is both a crucial tech for NC and a very expensive one for the point of the game where you want to get it... Same reason why Oxfording Radio is so good.

The only justification for delaying GL I can really think of is getting Astronomy (or Education which leads to a faster Astronomy) for very quick and well-timed Secularism and observatories. But yeah the question is though, do you really get Astronomy faster that way? I'm not sure.

Manpanzee said:

This map is indeed extremely friendly. I wouldn't be at all surprised to see someone put up a sub-200 time. I won my attempt on Turn 218.

Policy costs are at 85% on Warlord, so I figured it would be a good situation for Tradition-Liberty mix. I did Tradition Opener --> Liberty to Representation --> fill out Tradition. I think I spent too much time in Liberty, and should have just gone straight back to Tradition after Collective Rule. Gotta get those Aqueducts up faster...

Went Order because of lower gold on this difficulty. I had five Great Engineers, and actually could've won faster by buying a sixth one instead of two Great Scientists.

My endgame was definitely non-optimal, as you can see with the Hubble Space Telescope sitting one turn away from completion. I could've shaved three turns by totally ignoring the Hubble and starting to hard-built a part instead. Or If I had used multiple bulbs to get to Apollo earlier instead of building science for so long, I think I could've taken even more turns off the tech tree... but if I do that then I run into my Culture constraint... but then maybe I could've spent less policies in Liberty and gotten Culture done sooner... but then... You get the idea.

Anyway, I would generally describe my game as "a really nice Pasture game". Really good hammers early everywhere from Stables, and I had God of the Open Sky so border growth was incredible. My capital was merely pretty good, but my Antium was amazing. Antium had seven Pastures, infinite fresh water, Uluru, and THREE unique luxuries. One of the strongest non-capital cities I've ever had, I think.

Click to expand...

Very nice game! That Antium is incredible; it is such a luxury to have an awesome expansion city. I hate it when my capital looks lame in comparison to an expansion city though . And yes, Tradition/Liberty mixes are much trickier to pull off well these days with the change to the tradition sp tree last fall.

vadalaz said:

The only justification for delaying GL I can really think of is getting Astronomy (or Education which leads to a faster Astronomy) for very quick and well-timed Secularism and observatories. But yeah the question is though, do you really get Astronomy faster that way? I'm not sure.

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I had 2 really good science starts, and decided to go for Astronomy....Lost GL both times to India. I think I am sticking to Philosophy now,....

Not sure if it's worth the risk anyway...???


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Ok, I just managed a Turn 194 win. My first ever sub-200 science victory. Much better endgame management this time. I cost myself one turn by not realizing that I could buy an additional Great Scientist (forgot I had Reliquary), but other than that I think I played the end close to optimally.

This time I did a 4-city full Tradition start. I was very careful about hoarding/extorting gold early -- got a Caravan and a bunch of barb camps, pillaged some AI lands, and managed to nab some gold in peace deals. I made enough money to buy one of the Settlers and thus was able to get all three out by around Turn 45. My nearest neighbors both built wonders I wanted (Stonehenge and the almighty Temple of Artemis), so I decided to try warring my way to extra cities this time. I actually built a Ballista, which was kind of cool.

I missed God of the Open Sky this time, but instead I had a really awesome Sun God. I counted 20 Wheat across 6 cities. That's a lot of Wheat. Neapolis had 6 Wheat, 5 Pastures, and Uluru And this time I actually remembered that Uluru counts as a mountain, and settled next to it to get the Observatory.

I actually used Freedom this time, with Commerce as an assist. Both Cultural Heritage Sites and World's Fair passed on the first Congress, enabling a ton of extra policies. Not only did I get my extra purchasing discount in Commerce, but I was also able to go down the left side for cheap roads and a buffed Great Merchant -- I realized pretty early in the game that I was at risk of spawning a Merchant in the capital, and once I realized my policy situation, I figured, why not? The buffed Merchant is 2,000 gold. That's more than a spaceship part, so it's basically just as good as a Great Engineer with Order.

That's definitely it for me on this gauntlet. I've been playing too much Civ lately and need a break, but I'm sure I'll be back before too long.

My first attempt...

Turn 200 and I do not yet have Plastics. Clearly not optimal play for a medal.

I'll play it out and try for a faster time in my next game.

Did a run over the past couple of days.

I only had 3 cities. I wasted time by building an army that I never used. I was nowhere near a mountain. I went a bit into commerce.

Still, I'm nowhere near generatin 1000 beakers early enough. I can't figure out how are you guys ending up with <200 finish times.

Streams said:

Did a run over the past couple of days.

I only had 3 cities. I wasted time by building an army that I never used. I was nowhere near a mountain. I went a bit into commerce.

Still, I'm nowhere near generatin 1000 beakers early enough. I can't figure out how are you guys ending up with <200 finish times.

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Rough outline: Play a 4 cities Tradition game + 2 conquered. Get the cities out early, ideally before t50. GL Philosophy and focus on growth with all your might. Conquer the closest 2 caps (you only need 3 archers and a scout) ideally before t90, the earlier the better, you annex them once revolution is over. NC as soon as you can, which will be t80 something once you have built libraries in your expos. Get Edu around t100 earlier if you can, and time your move to renaissance so you can get to secularism asap. All trade routes are food and go to your cities, try to get Petra for the extra trade route and Colossus (don't think you can in this map). Build ToA in an expo, and HG where it fits. Grow grow grow. Have money ready to rush buy Unis if you can, same with Schools. If you have a couple of mountains, so much better, so you can build observatories. Beeline Edu first (maybe a couple of detours for extra trade routes to sailing and engineering), then beeline Astronomy if you have mountains, then beeline Scientific Theory, rush buy your schools if you can, then beeline Labs and do the same. Policies, people are trying different things, but the classic is Close Tradition as soon as you can, put a 1 in either Liberty or Patronage or open Commerce (this really depends on how strong is your culture production), then Rationalism as soon as you possibly can, first secularism then right side, then finish Rati. Ideology, choose Freedom or Order, that will be situational. Oxford Radio and use the Rati closer for Plastics or something expensive like that. Save faith to buy GSs and all of your GSs naturally generated (maybe you can plant the first one if you are shooting for 250, if you want 200ish don't), you will bulb all of them at the end of the game to just fly through the laster techs. You will also build LtoP and PT for the GSs, but make sure they don't get done until the very end, so you GS counter does not go up. Bulb 10 turns after Plastics, focusing everything on science for those 10 turns, you can calculate the ideal time, but it is roughly there. Bulb 1 GS per turns more or less). And good luck. I would not go for a sub200, that is REALLY difficult, but try for a 250, that is a great result.

Hope this helps, good luck, if you have any questions, please just ask, we will be happy to help.

T 229. 4 cities observatories.
3 months with no game, I lost a lot of my skill.

NC is the key. 2 tries and NC up T95 in the best case. So, maybe 2 cities NC is the best choice.
I struggled at 1200 bps at the end (Freedom). My issue was 1 or 2 GS to end the tech tree. I wasted 2 faith GE for Statue of Liberty and Hubble.

I didn't bulb anyone before plastics. Oxford for modern era.

Without mistakes under T210 seems to be easy with 4 cities Tradition - Freedom. Under you'll need 5 cities. Not sure 6 is need.

Add wealth civs like Arabia or Venice can help too.