RBC12A - Fall of Rome - Vizigoths (Deity)

Charis

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Fall of Rome - C3C Scenario - Succession Game series
RBC12A - Vizigoths

See the general thread for rules, but nothing special
beyond the usual RB list of non-exploits. (Dastardly non-exploits
are fine, as typical, with one worker per civ thru turn 50)

We'll be doing this one on Deity, for what I expect will be a
delightfully brutal game. The Vizigoths are in a unique (bad)
position, with Rome close by to the west and the Huns with many
troops but no lands, coming upon us from the east. :eek:



We're Mil/Industrious, led by Warlord Alarich. AI Aggression Normal.
We know: Barbarism, Pottery, Warrior Code, and Iron Working :p
There is a special barbarian tree with special units including Pillagers
and Warlords who can enslave. The year is 324 AD, and our setup is:

7 Migrants (0.0.2 settlers), 3 workers, 10 Raiders (2.1.1)
The spots at first glance look like good positions, but our lead-off
should consider this carefully. We'll need a short build-up phase and
can (I think) expect to defend a Hun invasion before too long. We're also
at a rough spot in that we're at the intersection of Rome and Byzantine
empires - who will be our main foe??

I've started too many recently, and so ask Arathorn to kick off -
Roster order: 10 turns per player (15 for first player at his option)
Arathorn
Nad
Charis
Aggie

(There would be room for one more, but given the expected
difficulty, it would have to be someone who has beaten variant
tough deity games, please)

Thanks, and good luck all!
Charis
 
Checking in with a few observations derived from a quick browse of the civilopedia.

1) The key victory conditions are VPs and elimination. The elimination only occurs if a civ loses 8 cities, not the sudden death of one, which will undoubtedly work in the human player's favour. Given that this is deity, however, and the Roman civs start massively ahead of the barbarians, the VPs could be a struggle.

2) One counter balance to the VPs for us is that we start fairly close to a number of VP locations. If we were to expand south and west, then Constantinople, Thessalonika, Singidium, Aquincum, Aquileia, Ravenna and Milan are all within range as VP outposts.

3) Given our start position I think the gameplan will fall into place automatically: smash Byzantium and ally against Rome. The big difficulty we have is that the Huns will be on top of us from the east before we know it. One thing I'm unclear about: are we automatically locked at war with the Huns, a la the fixed wars in the Rise of Rome scenario, or are we nominally at peace? Either way, we may have to fight on two fronts and that is going to be tricky.

4) How important is peaceful expansion via settlers? From a quick glance at the opening map, I would venture to suggest that we may not be doing much of that at all. Given the elimination criteria and the need to take out the Roman empire, military expansion would appear to be the order of the day. I think there is a strong case for an always war mindset. I'm interested to see how Arathorn approaches the opening turns, and what Charis' and Aggie's approach would be. My inclination would be to settle down with what we have, send out a number of explorers for a big contact and reconnaisance drive, get our cities walled and barracked, and hunker down for the fun: defence on our eastern flank, offense on the western, capturing and holding the VP locations.

5) Apart from the sandwich effect our start position is respectable. We have a coast to protect our southern underbelly, decent growth sites, iron in immediate range and wines fairly close to the west. One simple but important point: we get to choose our palace location by deciding which migrant settles first. It's a tough choice: the migrant closest to the iron may be the best in terms of central location, and with a quick barracks and hooking of the iron it could be spitting out units very quickly. It's disadvantage is a lack of fresh water.

6) The tech tree is much different with the special barbarian path. After a quick browse I think we should head straight for the special barbarian techs. Of the non-barbarian techs, the only two that I think we need semi-immediately are masonry (walls) and maths (catapults), although maths will also require alphabet. The units available on the barbarian path will give us a big offensive edge. The Scourge of God wonder sounds obscenely powerful, but I have no idea what our chances of getting it would be.

7) Perhaps the biggest plus we have is our government. The biggest thing that struck me is free unit support. Another pointer for military expansion. :)
 
(There would be room for one more, but given the expected
difficulty, it would have to be someone who has beaten variant
tough deity games, please)


Does beating deity with a 5CC count? Of course we did "cheat" a little using German Pazners...

Let me know if I am in.
 
I "got it" and will be examining the position and trying to decide on a course of action, at the very least, tonight. I hope to play, but I make no guarantees -- been a crazy weekend here.

It'll take some time to find out about the adjustments/changes in FoR, and I'll be writing up what I can as I go. So it might be a "long" time, but I hope to make it worth the wait.

Arathorn
 
The AW mindset might be just what we have to have here. I see at least three mighty opponents: both Roman empires and the Huns. But here we largely get to choose our moment. That is an advantage. I agree with the barbarian tech tree approach.
 
Lee! You're most welcome sir :goodjob:
Good to see you on board!

Arathorn, take your time, a good start is essential. With move 2 there are new options that appear, whether they're ones smart to choose or not: moving one and settling, heading to a hill for greater defense, or even using on migrant to merge into capital from the start?! (Not recommending mind you, just pointing out)

new Roster:
Arathorn
Nad
Charis
Aggie
LKEndter

Now the Romans are REALLY in for it! :hammer:
Charis
 
Oh, boy! Visigoths on deity.

Without even checking the civilopedia or opening the game at all, my initial impressions are:

POSITIVES:
- Barbarian government and units
- Ability to hit either Rome or Byzantium (or both) if needed
- Deity production *should* (in theory) work to the barbarian's benefit, as it seems the Romes should start with lots of high-powered units but have poor replenishment, while the barbarians should start with few units but increase more rapidly.
-

NEGAVITES:
- Not the best starting land
- Lots of fronts could develop very quickly and be real (no psuedowars on the "other" Rome to get alliances -- if we declare on them, we FIGHT them)
- Previewed as "perhaps the toughest position to play in the whole C3C expansion"


OK, time to fire up the game and see what I can see...

Load up the conquest. Change name to RBC-Alaric to make things easier for those who play lots of games. Check the game limits -- 150 turns, 35000 victory points, 8 city elimination, 40% land/population for domination, 10X wonder completion, 10X unit elimination, 5X advancement, 100X city conquest, 25 points for VP occupation.

No culture flips. Good to know.

Civilopedia notes
Governments:
Tribal Council allows 2 MPs, has minimal corruption (democracy in "regular" in Civ3), and infinite unit support. Very nice. Hurry is whip only, so cash will be useful for alliances and techs, almost exclusively.
Imperialism is cash rush but has rampant corruption and 1/2/4 unit support. Not a very good government.
Anarchy is typical. That's it. At least we won't have to go through a revolt this game.

Units:
Our base is the Raider -- a 2/1/1 for 10 shields. He upgrades to Maurader, a 4/2/1 costing 20 shields with defensive bombard. Upgrades to Pillager, who's a 6/2/1 for 40 shields. Upgrades to Warlord, a 8/3/1 for 70 shields and triggers a GA. With no unit upkeep costs ever, I'm inclined to get Mauraders quickly and the rest slowly. 20 shields is pretty quick and the Maurader gives the best ADM/shield of all our units. Warlord seems awfully expensive, but we will want a GA.

For defense, we get a typical spearman (2/1/1 for 20 shields).

The Romans use archers (standard), Garrisons (spearman w/ZoC), Legionary (4/4/1 for 50 shields, ZoC, builds roads and forts).

Both sides get horsemen (typical) and heavy cavalry (5/3/2 for 70 shields, ZoC), eventually.

For bombard, there's catapults (standard) and trebuchets (standard). We might like a lot of these, as I'm envisioning a primarily slow-moving assault team, based on our 2/3-cost immortal :eek:.

Migrants are 0/0/2 settlers that only cost one citizen to build and 20 shields. Super-settlers, but we have to be wary of the 8-city elimination rule, which we could run afoul of if we trade too many cities or get into much of a farmer's gambit. Military is the primary order of the day. Oh, the Civilopedia says a merged migrant adds two to the population of the city. If that's true (and it might not be), we should be careful to never merge migrants...that's just broken.

Buildings:
First of all, this is more of a sprint (maybe a 400-yard dash) than the marathon of a typical Civ3 game. Buildings generally have long payback times, so they're slightly less useful in shorter scenarios than in an epic game.

The buildings look like standard ancient and early medieval age fare. Cathedrals are called churches instead. Courthouse is only 50 shields, so we'll want lots of those. A 160-shield hospital is also available. There's no university equivalent, so research won't go too fast.

I think a lot of barracks will be important. Granaries, walls, and maybe marketplaces (though cash is of limited benefit -- depends on how many luxuries we get) and/or temples, with churches and aqueducts maybe necessary after we've grown up.

Resources:
Gold and silver are strategic resources required for Hagia Sophia and St. Peter's Basilica, two wonders. I think they'll act similarly to bonus resources but that we can maybe trade.

Typical 8 luxuries listed.

Cattle, fish, game, wheat are all standard. Olive Oil adds one food and one trade.

Wonders:
Great Lighthouse -- Byzantine's. Sea-stuff that I doubt we'll ever care about. Just like ships, I didn't list them. I doubt we'll need/use them at all.
Hagia Sophia -- Sistine's essentially, plus a bonus content face on the continent. Nice but hardly necessary.
Justinian's Leadership -- Sun Tzu + Heroic Epic. Available with military training (same time as heavy cavalry). 600 shields. Hmm...a WotW or 30 immortals? Little contest there!
Scourge of God -- Heroic Epic + Pentagon + one warlord every 5 turns. 200 shields. Available with Barbarian Leadership. Would be extremely nice. Depends on tech and cascade, though.
St. Peter's Basilica -- Temple of Artemis that doesn't expire. Waste of 400 shields for somebody else.

Military Academy -- just like in epic game. Depends on how our shield situation is mid-game.

Terrain:
Pretty standard except no defensive bonus for rivers. (WARNING: Civilopedia is not always correct on things like this. Expect no bonus when defending but still try to attack not across rivers when possible.)

Tech tree:
Maurading is a priority. Masonry (walls) and then alphabet to get mathematics. Writing to Code of Laws maybe. It appears to me this game can be won with VERY minimal technology investments. Cash isn't a whole lot of good other than for techs (no cash rush) and luxuries, though, so we might try to acquire a bit. Maximizing commerce is NOT essential to this game, however. It's so not essential, I might let workers mine/irrigate and move without roading *gasp* unless it's a transportation link.

Fortification allows free crossing of rivers, so that's one we might want, too, as a low-medium priority.

Other:
Roads allow 3 movement (according to the Civilopedia, anyway).

=====================================

OK, onto our specific position.

We know no one, so there's no trade available on turn 0.

Looking around the map, I notice VP locations by a lot of the Roman and Byzantine cities. We'll want to occupy these with at least a unit whenever and as soon as possible. Again, we can have LOTS of units, so don't fear building them out the yang.

Hmm...guess we do need to care at least a little about ships. There's no land bridge by Constantinople, so the Black Sea is connected to the Mediterranean by full-fledged water, not just a city on a landbridge. That could easily be important later. The Byzantines only have 6 cities in Europe, with the rest across the water in Asia. I'm guessing there's a land connection in the north and east, like in Rise of Rome, but we'll need to keep a close eye on the potential need for ships (to settle-claim their lands after destruction, if nothing else).

We have a bunch of interesting decisions/dilemmas about the starting locations for our cities. The location of our capital could well determine which way we spread, but it ideally would be the other way around. However, we can't really know which way we'll want to spread until we know which Rome needs thumping by the humans worse. Sigh.

There's a two-turn settler factory to the southeast, but it would need to be very corruption-free to work The center spot by the iron which seems a semi-ideal capital spot is on a bonus grass with no fresh water, so it might be semi-strong initially and fade for a while. There are a number of food bonus resources that I don't want to have to wait for culture expansions or founding future cities to get. At least our migrants move 2 instead of one, so I have a few options.


C denotes the capital city. Yellow dots are bonus resources, some of which are very hard to see zoomed out.

Red gets us the migrant factory in the southeast (but far from the capital), good defensive terrain, lots of bonus food resources, and some obvious backfill locations. Three of the cities would be delayed in founding by one turn.

Blue is my conservative initial thought -- gets us lots of good land, keeps the capital central, isn't overly aggressive in any one direction.

Green is kinda random -- some goofier thoughts on going beyond OCN for cities we can defend easily (recall, our corruption is minimal) and acquire lots of land quickly. Some of these cities would be delayed, especially the north-central one.

Purple is just going with the scenario design, but I'm not the fondest of those sites.

And, well, it's kinda late and I'm very tired, so I'm not going to decide tonight. I'll let the team weigh in with their thoughts. I have a few more things brewing in the back of my head that I'll try to add tomorrow. This is enough for tonight, however.

TEAM -- thoughts on opening moves?

Arathorn
 
Free comments from a short experience with this scenario.
Mainly agree with you on the analyse of opening, with some exception :)

Originally posted by Arathorn


For defense, we get a typical spearman (2/1/1 for 20 shields).
...

Migrants are 0/0/2 settlers that only cost one citizen to build and 20 shields. Super-settlers, but we have to be wary of the 8-city elimination rule, which we could run afoul of if we trade too many cities or get into much of a farmer's gambit. Military is the primary order of the day. Oh, the Civilopedia says a merged migrant adds two to the population of the city. If that's true (and it might not be), we should be careful to never merge migrants...that's just broken.
...

Tech tree:
Maurading is a priority. Masonry (walls) and then alphabet to get mathematics. Writing to Code of Laws maybe. It appears to me this game can be won with VERY minimal technology investments. Cash isn't a whole lot of good other than for techs (no cash rush) and luxuries, though, so we might try to acquire a bit. Maximizing commerce is NOT essential to this game, however. It's so not essential, I might let workers mine/irrigate and move without roading *gasp* unless it's a transportation link.

Arathorn

If you have Iron (which should be highest priority), Marauding should be the first goal.

Cash is (IMHO) very important in the beginning to pay for upgrading your (weak) raiders to (much better) marauders first and later to 'ultimate barbarian smashing machine'

Spearmen are useless until you have the 3rd level barbarian, before you have marauder (4.2.1) for the same price. In fact there is no good defence unit, so be carefull about the 'defensive war' especially against other barbarian civ :)

I didn't try but I hope that merging migrant does not give 2 population otherwise you indeed should ban it.

Oh, and with the 8 cities elimination, better not try to build too many cities that you had no hope defending (even and especially to 'steal' a ressource from another civ)

Good luck ....

Jabah
 
I did test and migrants merged back into the city add *ONE* pop unit, so there's no exploit there (and less benefit to merging one back in now and giving up a city to do so)

I tend toward blue in general, like to see 3 step placement when possible for easy defense and shifting of MP as needed, and would prefer to mainly outfill rather than backfill, given the game conditions.

Two questions are...
- WHO will be our EARLIEST foes? I think the Ostrogoths are our nearest neighbors and not far at all. With '4' defenders our first foe won't be Rome. Do we plan to go to war early with a nearest neighbor? If so, early build orders will focus on military and a capital location leaning toward that neighbor. If not, early orders will focus on workers, perhaps granary, and one city with rax to produce some MP/defense units while the other starting Raiders explore.
- WHO will be our MAIN Roman foe? We're in a position to go after either, or both. To finish Byzantines will require either a seaport city and cross-channel invasion (there is NO land bridge), or alliance with Sassanids.

I do like the idea of using catapults pretty liberally at some point, whether for sieging a Roman city or in our land to aggressively-defend. Finally, to answer someone's question, we're locked into no battles, so under some circumstances the Huns could be our friends. In fact we really don't know any other barb tribes right now, but I expect to know many/all before long.

Min sci is 160 turns (ie, never).
Contact trading is available immediately.

Good luck Arathorn :D
Charis
 
The Ostrogoths could be our first victim, but then we will have the issue of having more cities we can potentially lose, risking a loss this way. But would we really risk losing 8 cities in total? That sounds like a lot in a non AW game.

I am tempted to vote for 'both Roman empires' as our main foes, because we will be at war with both. I think it will largely depend on how things are going.
 
I haven't checked out the starting position of every barbarian tribe, but I would imagine from my knowledge of the period that most of the barbarian tribes will be able to attack the western empire easier than the eastern empire, which gives us the responsibility of beating on the Byzantines.
 
Some things I missed. Mauraders enslave to get workers, not a bad deal at all and helps make up for their cost. Warlords enslave to get Mauraders, which is a beautiful thing. We'll want to win as many fights as we possibly can.

In 10-15 turns, we should have Pillagers. These are essentially 2/3-cost immortals. In the never-ending horsemen vs. swordsman debates, no one ever wins, but most everybody agrees immortals beat horsemen. We have immortals for 2/3 the cost. That's just crazy. We'll want approximately a hundred kazillion of these.

Pillagers vs. legionaries? I'll take the pillagers. At 2/5 the cost (significantly cheaper (50%) even after their deity bonus), we can kill them with numbers. Fighting defensively (which always means attacking in our lands instead of in their lands -- a successful defensive war almost always relies much more on attacking their attackers than defending cities with units) will be quite possible very early. Probably not on my turns but by Nad or Charis, we should probably be at least *thinking* about attacking, if not actually in war.

Think of it this way...I think we've all waged successful wars with MDI vs. muskets. I know I have, several times, when faced with a lack of horses or an inability to acquire chivalry. It's tough but not too bad. NOW, make those defending muskets slightly less expensive (50 shields instead of 60) and change the MDI to be half-price. Are you kidding me? Let's romp!

Now, we mustn't neglect expansion and defense. Spears are the same price and defense as pillagers, so we shouldn't build any until we can no longer build pillagers. At that point, we'll have to wait and see.

Expect nothing but raiders, barracks, workers, granaries, and/or migrants.

Longer-term, let's examine Heavy Cavalry vs. Warlords. Both cost 70 shields, so it's an appropriate comparison. HCav are much further down the tech tree, but let's ignore that for now. HCav are 5/3/2 and Warlords are 8/3/1. Straight-up, that's a tough call. Mobility counts for a lot, in terms of fewer casualties and retreating to heal and getting to the front faster. I might lightly prefer HCav, except for the fact that Warlords enslave. Imagine 1/3rd of the battles giving a 60-shield unit (6/2/1) which upgrades rather cheaply. No contest. I want Warlords, unless the game is so close to over that they won't reach the front in time. Even using 2 to kill a HCav that retreated is a worthwhile option. And munching lots of spears/garrisons! :) :D

Mauraders are my least favorite. I'd rather have cheap immortals than 60-shield units for not a huge increase in stats. I'm going to recommend a huge unit push until we acquire the tech for mauraders, followed by a bit of infrastructure (a few more cities and maybe temples and/or courthouses and such) until we have warlords and then nothing but warlords and keeping our pillagers until the end of time.

I envision 50-60 turns to the tech for warlords. That means we'll need to start a prebuild for SoG about the end of Charis' turns, if we have one city up to 10 spt at that point (which we hopefully will -- set one aside for that purpose). Pillagers should come in ~12 turns, with mauraders ~15-24 after that. Then we go for SoG. I don't recall how the split in techs works after mauraders, but we'll want to guarantee SoG ASAP, even if it means delaying warlords. Mauraders aren't BAD, but I'd prefer a zillion pillagers.

That's my take. I look forward to playing tonight. Should be some fun trading, too, but there's not a lot of planning with that -- we just get the best value we can as soon as we can and go on.

Arathorn
 
OK, let's get this party started. First order of business is to found the capital. Then I'll explore and verify that blue dots still look pretty good before founding there. I'm hoping to make contact with both Romes on our own, pretty quickly (like in the first couple turns) to open up lots of trading opportunities (I hope).

Alarichbaurgs founded on the bonus grass by the iron. We now have a capital! It starts on barracks, as it is in a low-food region and is well suited to be a military producer.

Ataulfulundi founded and starts on a migrant. Fritigernhaims will do a raider and then a worker, then possibly granary depending on the flow of the game at that point. Hey, there's a Byzantine Legionary in that fortress. I'll still found a city and hope he doesn't attack right away. Wallialund will do raider, worker, barracks, I'm guessing. Rodericfairguni has a cow in range and starts a granary. Exploring changed the location of the NW dot. It'll found a little late and then we'll backfill. We also meet the Ostrogoths right away -- they're just east of us, like crammed in tight close. I barely moved and ran into an Ostrogoth raider. Nothing to trade with them, of course....not even communications with the Byzantines.... Excellent! I managed to get communications with Western Rome, too...not sure how, and they neither one have contact with the Ostrogoths.

I check out what it's worth to them. Techs are ridiculously expensive. World Map and Communications is only worth 56 gold? Hmmm...I do it anyway, selling to Western Rome first, as they offered more. That devalues us to 39 gold from Eastern Rome.

Marauding @ max will take 19 turns. That will hopefully drop when we found our last city and improve our lands a bit. We're really short on workers but so short on food that we'd waste shields building them first.

And that ends our first turn.

(I) Ostrogoth raider goes east and we can see brown borders. Legionary abandons his fortification (now in our cultural borders) and heads west. That makes me feel more than a bit better.

(1) 326 - Theudisvwairhei is founded, causing jaws nationwide to crack while trying to pronounce it. It starts a worker, because it has lots of forests to clear so it can grow even a little bit. Western Rome has a worker for sale, but it would cost 125 of our 145 gold. I'm not sure I want to cripple my trading abilities so early, so I pass. Get a total of 4 gold for our map from the Romes.

(I) Ostrogoths seem to have a lot of units on our border, whereas our units are spread all over the place.

(2) 328 - Athanasweriva, our last starting migrant city, is founded in the NW near some gold, on the river, and getting a deer in range immediately. It starts a barracks.

Trying to explore but there are so many enemy units around, I'm very nervous/paranoid.

This time, I go ahead and buy the worker -- from Eastern Rome, for WM and 124 gold. Contacts are also available, but I think map trading might get us some benefit and we won't need too much seed money. We'll see.

(I) Nada.

(3) 330 - A little exploration done. Moving some workers a bit here and there.

Make 10 gold on map sales.

(I) Nada.

(4) 332 - Try to MM. Try to explore. Do very little, actually.

Western Rome is broke. Eastern Rome gives 4 of their 5 gold for our world map.

(I) Frit Raider->worker (consider migrant in a few turns)

(5) 334 - There's just not much to do. Franks, Sassanids, and Celts nowhave contact with both Romes. They're expensive to buy, though, so I don't.

Eastern Rome is dead broke this turn, but I get 2 gold from Western Rome for map info. Ostrogoths still have their initial 50 gold.

(I) Powder-blue civ comes into view.

(6) 336 - It's the Vandals. They got 50 gold and nothing else interesting. Must be researching @ max like everybody else, but I can hopefully swing something from the Romes for this. WM + Contact with Vandals gets us contact with Franks and Celts from Eastern Rome. Western Rome insulted by contact with Vandals for Contact with Sassanids, so they get WM for 3 of their 4 gold. Franks and Celts both have sailing, but it's out of our price range, currently. It would require 12 gpt and all our 29 gold for it. Bah! We can use Marauding to get Sailing from them and then sell it back around to the rest of the barbarians in due time. Research stays @ max.

(I) Our first growths start completing. Capital starts on raiders after its barracks completes, to give us a semblance of military. Most of our initial guys are out scouting, with a few playing zone defense. An attack now would be beyond painful.

(7) 338 - I finish scouting the rest of the foritifications south of Wali...no more legionaries in view. If they started there, they've gone on to better and different things.

Western Rome has communication with Huns but Sassanids are no longer for sale -- they must have bought communications with us! SWEET! Our WM gets their TM (they have no cash). Unfortunately, both the Romes already had that info, so we can't resell it. Oh well. It might come in handy someday. Plus, the Sassanids are one more civ to bring down the cost of non-barb techs.

A couple cities are short on happiness, with MPs still a turn away. Temporary scientists help cut the time to Marauding. They'll be back to growing soon.

(8) 340 - Contact with Anglo-Saxons available from both Romes but not Persia. I sniff a twofer, but we don't have the cash to pull it off. Some of the barbs tribes in the west have Masonry, too. We can hopefully get a lot of good value from Marauding once it comes in. Actually, lots of barb tribes have as many as 4 techs. I wonder how they're affording them. Anyway, we're still hoping on Marauding coming through big-time for us.

(9) 342 - Little to do. Little to say. Play around a bit with specialists where people are working squares to little gain and see no change. 3 turns to Marauding. Start crossing fingers and toes and such. Only 5 gold from map sales.

(10) 344 - Time to Marauding drops to one. Somebody must have it, as we had little or no growth last turn. Franks, Huns, and Ostrogoths have it. Time for some serious checking of stuff before I go on. Big trade turn.

Very disappointing, ultimately. We start with 54 gold and -1 gpt. We have 21 gpt to play with, if we need it. Marauding from Franks (last place) only costs us 12 gold. But it's only worth 2 gold to the Celts?????? Sigh. Marauding gets 19 gold and HBR from Vandals. HBR + Maurading + 57 gold gets us Alphabet and Masonry from Celts. Masonry gets us 31 gold from Vandals. And that's it.

I debated buying Writing from the Sassanids for 18 gpt and 10 gold and reselling for Sailing and Mathematics, but we'd recover next to no cash and we're not really desperate for any of those techs, so I pass.

Science set to pillaging @ max (15 turns). It's a good use of our cash and we'll definitely need the tech. A couple short-term scientists set.

Do I stop here? So little has happened, I'm gonna do 15.

(11) 346 - Starting to get MPs into place and even have the occasional troop to send out with our coming migrants. But workers have gotten short shrift (I'll built, umm...zero).

(12) 348 and (13) 350 - Nothing to report. Get contact with Anglo-Saxons from Sassanids when they have no cash for our WM. They're up Sailing. Everybody's up on us in tech, but I care little.

(14) 352 - Not warp speed. Iron connected, though, finally.

(15) 354 - Moving some migrants into position. Oestergarn founded. Starts walls. Unselslund founded on a horse. It's tradeable and it gives some commerce benefit. Plus, it was just the natural spot there anyway. Not connected to the capital yet, though. Begins raider.

ALL builds are vetoable. The one migrant is where I would place the next city.

Theu changed to Palace as pre-build for SoG. It'll probably appear in less than 20 turns and we're nowhere near 10 spt there. It can reach 4 spt easilyi and 8 by borrowing some tiles from the capital. Feel free to move this elsewhere, but we need to get that prebuild going.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/rbc12a-354ad.zip

Arathorn
 
Tentative dotmap:



I'd settle the two red dots about as quickly as we can (one will require marsh clearing first) and the two blue dots are good filler cities. And that'd be it for a while. Have some migrants on hand for when cities get razed, but we don't want too large a core and, like all the land around our starting position, the rest of the stuff is not exactly fertile. Once we beat up on Eastern Rome a bit, we'll hopefully get a bit more breathing room and some better city sites.

Nad -- UP NOW
Charis -- on deck

Arathorn
 
C'est moi?

Got it. Will take a good long look tonight
 
RBC12A, Visigoths

Inherited Turn 354AD


Aims: i) consolidate and complete our initial peaceful settling phase ii) keep abreast of international relations in case of developments or opportunities iii) get the road network going and some worker attention directed to increae our food and shields iv) bein to gear up for war, whoever that may be against At the moment we need to be patient and vigilant, and wait for the correct moment to unleash our mighty barbarian forces :hammer:

Of the cities proposed by Arathorn, the settler in position has an excellent city site. I like the southern red dot, especially as it will get some wines, but I'm not too keen on the northern red dot for the moment. The marsh clearing requires a lot of time and worker power that we just don't have at the moment, and the site itself juts out a little too much for my liking, enclosed as it would be by the cities of both Roman empires. I'm not planning on settling that. The blue dots are fine as fillers and will make our fledgling empire more compact.


Map trading nets 3g, everyone has full contacts. There is a 2fer available between writing and sailing, but it is too expensive and I don't want to tie up our gpt on it.

Checking through the cities, I'm dubious about Theudi(etc) for the palace prebuild. The surrounding forests need to be chopped for it to to get to a size where it can pull in decent shields, and that would require many worker turns and waste a load of freebie shields. I do not want to pinch tiles from the capital, that is short of good tiles anyway and would compromise our unit production. There aren't many other outstanding sites for the prebuild though; I decide on Wallialund, as that has the most shield potential, though it's going to take considerable work to fulfil that potential. I will have it go on the palace as soon as it completes its worker.

Theuli switched to barracks, no other build changes.

It's already apparent that happiness is going to be a major struggle for us. The only luxury in range is wines to the southwest; we could use those asap. The only other visible luxes are dyes, near Antioch (miles away), and a fur on the other side of the Ostrogoths, similarly impractical at the moment.

As we've got full contacts exploration becomes less of a priority than it was. Those raiders already out exploring will continue to do so, but I intend to use newly trained units to bolster defences at home.


Time to continue...

IT: Athan... worker ----------> migrant


Turn 1, 356AD: Ufarplapja founded as Arathorn suggested, starts migrant to go claim the wines further southwest.

The Sassanids are suddenly annoyed...a check of the military advisor shows they are in anarchy! Surely they're not headed for imperialism? :rolleyes:


IT:


Turn 2, 358AD: I look up plague in the civilopedia. Don't understand it exactly, but doesn't sound good. I'm not too worried about pop dying, since the city is size 1, but since it can kill units too, I get the raider out of the city straightaway.

Incredibly, the Sassanids have gone for Imperialism. Anyone care to explain that?


Turn 3, 360AD: Plague has already disappeared from Ataulf...as far as I can tell we escaped unscathed thanks to the size of the city, so that's a stroke of luck.

Nothing much happening yet; without embassies it's difficult to know exactly what's happening worldwide.


IT: one of our exploring raiders sees a number of Frank raiders heading roughly south. After western Rome?

Alarich... maurauder ---------> maurauder


Turn 4, 362AD: I should be enjoying these quiet turns, after all, the rest of the game promises to be brutal. But I'm not, I'm itching for some action! :D

The Huns have a monopoly on Pillaging.


IT: Roder... granary ----------> migrant


Turn 5, 364AD: Ostrogoths have also gained Pillaging. If I wait another 3 turns for our self-research to complete I expect everyone will have gained the tech and we'll have nothing to barter. So I go for the deals available now:

Buy Pillaging from the Ostrogoths for 7g + 6gpt.

Trade Pillaging + 1gpt to Franks for Writing + Mathematics.

Trade Writing to the Anglo-Saxons for Sailing + 2g.

We can't recoup much gold though; I just take what's available. Sell Pillaging to the Celts for 59g. The only other offer available is fro the Vandals, only 18g :( But hey, since just about everyone has it, I sell it anyway. It may even work to our favour if the barbarian tribes help us against Rome


Start barbarian leadership at 70%, eta 20 turns.

We've got 87g, but we need some sort of buffer for our science. I think this cash would be best invested in a couple of embassies so we have some idea of what's happening in the world. Most of the embassies are very expensive, but Eastern Rome's only costs 35g:

Constantinople is pulling 7spt at size 5, it is defended by 2 legions and 2 garrisons, it is building a legion, it has the standard buildings, and it has 3 luxuries and 4 strategic resources. The Eastern Romans are running 50 % science.

I'd like an embassy with the Sassanids but that costs a whooping 117g. Instead I take an embassy with our nearest neighbour, the Ostrogoths for only 27g:

The capital is pulling 3spt at size 2, its military consists of 3 spears and a boat, it is building barracks, the only building it has is the palace, its connected resources are horses and furs, and the Ostrogoths are running 70 % science.


The embassies show no wars occurring (boo!).


Turn 6, 366AD: We can now trade with both Roman empires, the Sassanids and the Ostrogoths. We have nothing to offer, however.

I buy a worker from the Anglo-Saxons for maths (so we can't buy any more from them until the middle of LK's turn). This worker starts the long-term project of mining our capital's iron hill.


IT: still using the explorers to watch our nearby civs. One of these spots a number of Vandal raiders heading in our general direction. They're still 10 turns or so away, but it would be best if we remain cautious.

Wallialund worker ----------> palace
Athna... migrant ----------> walls


Turn 7, 368AD: I raise lux to 10%.

The Ostrogoths have Code Of Laws, they are the only barbarian civ with this tech.


IT: Vandal raiders continue to head southeast. I'm going to keep our explorers in front of them, and pray they're not coming for us.

Theudi... barracks ---------> pillager

Byzantine's start Justinian's Leadership.


Turn 8, 370AD: exploring and mm'ing


IT: Vandal raiders divert north. I have no idea what they're doing.


Turn 9, 372AD: Found Sineigswinija, start raider.


IT: erm, the Franks seem to be headed our way as well now :eek: It's still too early to tell if they're coming for us or one of the civs near us.

Oestergam walls ----------> catapult
Unselslund raider ----------> catapult

The Romans start Justinian's.


Turn 10, 374AD: a couple of cities require lux of 20% to keep all citizens working; this would be very painful on our finances, however, so for now I hire scientists, but the next player could increase lux rate instead if he prefers.

The last 2 migrants needed to complete the peaceful settlement component of our gameplan are being prepared, one will complete next turn. they should head for the southern dots, and then we can shift gear in our military prep.

Wallialund is on palace prebuild, but with Barbarian Leadership likely to appear within 15 turns or so, our chances of getting it may not be so good. We don't have to worry about cascades, however, so it may still be possible. Wallialund could use some worker help, to improve its tiles or even for merging, the problem is we don't have that many workers.

Military buildup is progressing slowly rather than quickly, although once the granaries complete our growth curve should accelerate. I was tempted to change them to military but I didn't on the basis that once the pain of building them is over the payback will compensate.

It seems that everyone is at peace for the moment. Hey, I thought this game was supposed to be brutal?! :D Once the action does start I don't think there'll be much time to breathe.

Go Charis :)





The Save
 
Everything seems to indicate an early build up phase (tech and military, that is,
not extraneous bldgs!) followed by very rapid war with allies vs first half of
Rome, then second. I don't envision war starting on my watch, but a completion of
settling plans and maneuvering for scourge of God.

Tech has a strange way of taking 1/2 the initial number of turns, so I swap capital
to Scourge prebuild NOW. The prebuild in the tiny city is a joke.

[0] 374 AD - Swap catapult cities to rax. Without going for the rax wonder we'll
need one in every city, and on further reflection, lots of cats will be too slow,
and we're better off with more troops. IBT - Lots of units on move, but not at us.

[1,2] 376, 378 - movin'
[3] 380 - Found red dot - Alveistulga. Barb ldr drops 2 in due date.
[4] 382 - zzz. IBT Huns start scourge of God?! Glad we've got good prebuild.

BTW, the one thing I don't like about our no-temple approach will be that heavy
cav can strike any city of ours on the turn they declare.

[7] 388 - Barb ldrship and prebuild finish both due in 1. Ostogoths start SoG,
which drops price to 1 beaker. So we can buy it cheap, right? Yes. WM for Barb ldr+TM+1
Scourge due in 12 :goodjob: About 3 tribes have CoL+Map, Huns also have Poly.
IBT - Rome demands TM+12g. Ok Caesar. He's added to the 'scourge' list.

[8] 390 - Franks come up with Barb ldr. Time to trade with Vandals for Map Making and
28g, and to Anglos for Code of Laws. WM's are traded around.

[9] 392 - Eveyone is working on SoG. Barring an SGL we'll get it though.

[10] 394 AD - Blue dot founded - Swalauvsvisibaurgs (sheeeesh!) It's defender
is next door. We're actually short a defender in Wallialund - but a raider is
shifting over to cover - let's not leave any more undefended cities here our.
There's a migrant due in 3 in Friti - complete if you want one more city 3 squares
SE of it, 3 NE of Rodi, else swap to rax. That city does at least have a granary.

It might be time to bring home the raider scouts too. One may need RoP to escape 8-\
Either sacking can be sped up by deficit spending, or scourge by a turn with lux
bump, or get an embassy or two with cash. Enjoy!

Turns now going quickly, I imagine that will change (permanently) at some point before too long. With about 60 turns left before victory conditions are met by Rome, and with our low national productivity, it could be VERY close. Capitla is fortunately 14-15spt so 5 turns per warlord. Add one more per 5/turns for SoG, and the whole rest of the nation combined is probably no more than 2 per five turns - but some need courthouses too. So in 40 turns then we'll have about 30 warlords for our rampage. More accurately, we'll have about 10-12 on hand in about 20 turns to 'start' the first great war. (starting between mid-Lee and mid-Arathorn, methinks)

Save file 394 Vizigoths

Arathorn
Nad
Charis
Aggie <-- UP
LKEndter <-- On Deck

Good luck,
Charis
 
Suggestions:

- Up the lux tax for the SoG city. With only a few turns of pre-build against deity foes, we're going to be hard-put to win this very VERY important wonder. Our prebuild (is that all it was? A couple turns? SHEESH! I advocated for that at the end of my turn -- we couldn't do better than that?) vs. their deity bonus (60 shields). I'm not terribly optimistic. Especially considering another civ may get a warlord-inspired GA. (If the Ostrogoths have a mere 10 spt in their SoG city, they could easily beat us.)
- Lower the science rate. We'll be happy to build pillagers (and maybe get some enslaved troops as workers) for 40 shields and pay to upgrade once we get the tech.
- BUILD CATAPULTS!!!!!!!! We're going to be primarily based around speed-one units (mauraders, pillagers, warlords) anyway! Some softening blows will be somewhere between very handy and absolutely necessary.
- We'll want some migrants on hand when we start fighting, to raze and replace and for the inevitable landgrab once somebody loses 8 cities. SOME city (maybe Ufar, which can maybe be a 2-turn migrant factory with some TLC) should probably continue to spit them out, even if we have little immediate use for them. The time will come and we will want a number on hand without wanting to wait for them to be built.
- Have cash on hand when we start the war on the Romes. Buy in as many people as possible against one Rome or the other (doesn't matter which...pick whichever is cheaper).
- I'm thinking we'll need to concentrate a bit more on Eastern Rome, as their capital is nearest to us of all the barb civs, the other civs that can hit them are far away (Huns, Ostrogoths) except for the Sassanids, who are hugely important to have on our side. Western Rome will be up against Celts, Vandals, Anglo-Saxons, Franks, and hopefully more.
- Most important allies (in descending order, IMO) are: Ostrogoths (fighting them too would be BRUTAL), Sassanids (only really help against Eastern Rome), Vandals (also awfully close for comfort), .... Somebody way west to spread out Western Rome's troops.- The only other tech I'm really interested in (after sacking) is Fortification for river crossing. The rest can go hang, as far as I'm concerned.
- Any vet raiders should be upgraded to mauraders as soon as circumstances (barracks, MP/happiness needs, cash, etc.) allow. Raiders are almost worthless. Mauraders are incredibly useful.

Good luck Aggie!!!
Arathorn

P.S. I'll be out from mid-Friday to mid-Sunday. Please don't skip me but feel free to swap me, if I'm up at that time. Ideally, I could play my next turns before I go.
 
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