Rebellions, vassals and new nations

Dell19

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I know this has been discussed recently but I thought I would start a new thread. The main idea is that civilizations should be more dynamic and large empires should not become unstoppable unless they are extremely well managed, so the focus of complete domination would be reduced.

The first part of the idea is that as empires become larger parts of the empire are more likely to revolt. This is likely to be influenced by a number of factors including the distance that the cities are from the capital, whether they have the same dominate religion and culture, whether the surrounding tiles have been improved to the average level of the empire, whether its on a separate continent and whether there are trade links with the capital. Not all these methods would be used but they are an example of how the revolt risk could be measured.

Instead of just one city rebelling there would be a risk of surrounding cities also rebelling. However before the rebellion occured, or on the same turn the player would have the option to either give these rebelling cities some autonomy by allowing them to become a vassal with the ability to build their own units but still contribute taxs to the home nation and the vassal would have good relations. Or the player could choose to refuse and would be faced with these cities going into civil disorder and it would be up to the player to move enough troops into these cities to stop the disorder. So if you were at peace with all the other nations then you would probably find it easy to put down the rebellion.

However if the cities stayed in civil disorder for several turns then there would be a chance for these cities to break away completely and form a new nation. They would be a small nation but they could ally with the home nation's enemies and might survive. They would gain a small amount of units whilst any peace keeping troops from the home empire would be returned by to the capital injured. Vassals could also form new nations if relations were allowed to disintigrate. In both cases the new nation would have most of the home nation's technologies but not all of them

The opposite side of this would be that small neighbour empires who had great relations with, had the same religion and culture etc, could be persuaded to become your vassals and eventually to become part of your empire where you would absorb their cities and units.

The idea behind this is that it would allow colonies of a large empire to seek independance whilst also making the later periods of the game interesting as the game might drastically change. A dominant player might be brought into a difficult war and then see several revolts which suddenly they no longer have the resources to crush.
 
Great ideas. This is a similar implementation as in Europa Universalis 2. Civilizations needs to have more dynamic, non-user controller elements, such as rebellions. I would also like to see really powerful barbarian hordes early game and Pirates / Viking types up to Mideval times. It should be possible for large countries to collapse without being necessarily invaded by others. Of course, allowing other nations to influence rebellious elements within countries would be nice!
 
:goodjob: :goodjob:

Dell19 how did you manage to get 9000+ posts? Nice picture, btw.

You must be the absolute monarch of posts.

:king: :queen:
 
Actually, I have commented rather extensively on this. I like your ideas, and have said so (more or less) in the following:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=87836&page=2&pp=20

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=87765

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=84798

At some point we will probably need to create a sticky or a sub-catagory on this one theme. I hope that Firaxis is reading (and I trust that they are, since they said so) because this has been a recurring theme.

:smug: :wallbash: :wallbash: [dance]

Edit: this one also: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=86674
 
Dell19 said:
But the important thing is what do you think of my idea?

It is entirely your idea that I like, uninfluenced by the pretty girl in your avatar. The vassal idea is great. I think that in a democracy the governors of all but the capital city should be permenantly on and beyond your power to interrupt unless there is mobilization for war.


I also think that different ethnicities should exist within one civ, perhaps in relation to the barbarian tribes that inhabited a region before it was colonized with cities. Thus a large empire would be inherintly multiethnic, even if you founded all of your own cities. Things like sacrificing population, letting it starve, or chronic civil disorder should offend people of all ethnicities strongly represented in the victimized cities, leading to unhappiness in every city with that ethnicity. If it gets too bad, you get an independence movement that hurts taxation and productivity, and if it gets out of hand you have a rebellion. The nearby presence of another civ that treats the same ethnic group in a better fashion should encourage seperatism, as should foreign agitation. The plus sides to a multiethnic empire could include increased culture production (a temple, a church, a mosque and a synogague) and man-made luxary resources (as discussed on the Civ4 ideas thread). Govts should strongly influence race relations, with democracy being the best and fascism being the worst. Communism would negate most of the good and bad effects of multiethnicity
 
I also think that different ethnicities should exist within one civ

that might be a great idea to go along with immigration and what you said. But back to the main topic this would be hard to implement unless the AI gets a large boost. For the AI to take advantage of this feature it must have foresight (something a little on the low end for CIVs in CIV3) but yea it would be a very nice option...look at Galactic Civilization (a wonderful game I must add) they pulled it off along with SMAC and what Dell mentioned (Europa something to lazy to scroll up).
 
Ballazic said:
Great idea.


Thanks mate (if you're talking to me, if not, please pretend you were). I'm worried about the unPCness of it, but I guess Sid crossed that bridge by introducing fascism. Heil Hynkel, Herring and Garbisch!
 
It does sound like a good idea as lots of large empires end up being a mixture of different ethnic groups and it would be nice to see these groups actually responding to the way that you treat them. It will be interesting to see how firaxis implement religion as to whether religions will act as another layer of groups on top of cultural groups and whether that will allow you to build a range of different temples in a multi religious city. Although they may still limit it to one temple to each city but it would be interesting to have mosques being built in one region and churches in another.
 
You're right, Dell, EUII and it's offspring have great use of this. But at the same time it becomes incredibly tedious and annoying in Victoria when you take over Korea as Brazil and they revolt for ten years straight... I'm not sure If I would like to have this implemented :confused:
 
In Civ3 it should be less frequent and besides in the Paradox games rebellions tend to be over the top with certain areas of provinces guarenteed to rebel every 10 or so years. I would imagine rebellions only occuring in very large empires and not likely to occur in the same area as another previous recent revolt to show that the rebels have been severely weakened.
 
Dell19's Ideas solve all the problems with the current revolution/city leaving civ problem.

-one other thing: If a city leaves my civ and joins another, can that be either a pretext to war if they accept them? Can I force them to (diplomatically) give the city back? Or can accepting that city be a "black mark" on their reputation?

-any remarks on cities joining other civs and relations between those two countries?
 
I always imagined that in general the cities would first leave one empire and then in distant future the new breakaway civ could join another empire. City flipping would cover the occasions where a city might switch sides. I guess if a claims system was included where if a city that you had previously owned was owned by another civ you would be able to declare war on that civ without such a large reputation hit.
 
Dell19 said:
I always imagined that in general the cities would first leave one empire and then in distant future the new breakaway civ could join another empire. City flipping would cover the occasions where a city might switch sides. I guess if a claims system was included where if a city that you had previously owned was owned by another civ you would be able to declare war on that civ without such a large reputation hit.


A 5 pop city flipped from Rome to me, and the Romans declared war a few turns later. To see what would happen (ok ok because I was already mobilizing for a war with Japan to seize the only saltpeter on a very large continent), I reloaded the game to the turn after the city flipped, gave the Romans two luxeries for free. Two turns later, they declared war on me, forfeiting those free luxaries and losing predictably to considerably more advanced forces (knights vs longbowmen and spearmen). I know the Romans are aggressive (4), but I can't believe there was no relation to losing that city by cultureflip. Also, they were either at war or recently out of a war with Babylon to their south. This was Regent with the AI at normal aggression.

PS. Dell you always have great avatars.
 
I really like this idea too, if in moderation. I've never played Europa Universalis but I got into Medieval: Total War, and they represented this quite well. Though there was no way to prevent rebellions without simply stationing more troops. And when you got to a certain point in the game, around 60-70% of the landmass conquered, there were mass rebellions all across your empire. One of the problems was that the quality of those rebelling troops was highly dependant on the facilities you built to improve your own troops and the types of troops those cities could produce. At this point in the game you tended to be spread extermely thin as massive armies are required to win wars. And you're cash flow while huge is usually being strecthed thin by such massive armies in your front lines, so you're using peasants as garrisons when these rebellions occur there is very little you can do to prevent losing the battles. Bribing a couple key armies is one way to save you're most precious cities. But then you have to reconquer all your lost cities, which will continue to rebel for a good many years down the road. It got very frustrating and a nuissance to play this period or beyond this period. As long as they do not implement this extreme type of rebellion I'm ok with that.
 
phoule said:
I really like this idea too, if in moderation. I've never played Europa Universalis but I got into Medieval: Total War, and they represented this quite well. Though there was no way to prevent rebellions without simply stationing more troops. And when you got to a certain point in the game, around 60-70% of the landmass conquered, there were mass rebellions all across your empire. One of the problems was that the quality of those rebelling troops was highly dependant on the facilities you built to improve your own troops and the types of troops those cities could produce. At this point in the game you tended to be spread extermely thin as massive armies are required to win wars. And you're cash flow while huge is usually being strecthed thin by such massive armies in your front lines, so you're using peasants as garrisons when these rebellions occur there is very little you can do to prevent losing the battles. Bribing a couple key armies is one way to save you're most precious cities. But then you have to reconquer all your lost cities, which will continue to rebel for a good many years down the road. It got very frustrating and a nuissance to play this period or beyond this period. As long as they do not implement this extreme type of rebellion I'm ok with that.

I kind of liked that period. It meant you had to figure out how to fight multiple rebellions with the armies you managed to bribe. It lead to some interesting tactical exercises and very elite troops. In fact, I once let LIvonia and LIthuania continually rebell 5 or 6 times. It produce a 5* general with Expert Defender, 2 full units of valour 3 Feudal Knights, 2 units of valour 3 FMAA, and several good valour archers.
 
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