A New Look at Article E - Legislative Branch

[Comnenus]

Article E. Legislative Branch

The Legislative Branch will be formed of one House of the People and an Advisory
Council. 
      
       	1.The House of the People will be formed of the entirety of the
          citizenry and is responsible for the drafting of new Laws and
          Amendments to the Constitution.
		a.The House will present all proposed Articles, Amendments
                  and Laws to the Judicial Branch for review.
	2.The Advisory Council will be formed of the Provincial Governors.
          They will advise the citizens of the state of their individual
          provinces, any concerns there may be for said provinces,
          and enumerate any goals they envision for their provinces. 
          	a.Each Governor shall determine any policies and procedures
                 needed to carry out their duties.
	   	b.Governors are responsible for the care, management,
                 use of the cities, and use of lands of a province through the
                 setting of build queues, allocation of laborers on tiles,
                 population rushes and drafting of citizen soldiers.

Article E is an extremely important part of our Constitution. It is my hope that we can all act favorably on this article in a timely manner. Please feel free to discuss it here and to make constructive criticisms.

[Comnenus]

Actually, this just makes some changes to the previous Article, but on looking over the Constitution again, there are no provisions for electing Governors or other officials below the "federal" level. Should a clause be inserted concerning the election of the Provincial Governors?

[Cyc]

I like it. I would probably reword the following part.

a.The House may vote to ask the opinion of the Judicial Department as to the legality of any proposed legislation.

The House wouldn't have to vote to ask the Judiciary to review a proposal for legality. As the document (proposed Article, Amendment, etc.) was drawn up, and the people were happy with it (determined by more AYES than NAYS or just plain lack of critixism in the discussion thread), the citizens driving the discussion would simply ask the Judiciary (by posting in the Judicial thread) to review the proposed document. The Judiciary would be required to review the document in a timely manner and then post the ratification poll.

Therfore, you may want to change the wording to "The House will present all proposed Articles and Amendments to the Judicial Branch for review.", or something along those lines.

[Comnenus]

Thanks, I like your wording much better.

I made one change, though, adding the words "and Laws".

[Cyc]

Originally Posted by Comnenus

Actually, this just makes some changes to the previous Article, but on looking over the Constitution again, there are no provisions for electing Governors or other officials below the "federal" level. Should a clause be inserted concerning the election of the Provincial Governors?

Actually, Article C covers your concern here:

Article C. The government will consist of the Executive Branch,
Legislative Branch and Judicial Branch.

This Amendment would work in conjunction with Article C.

[Immortal]

For the house of the people, it may not be necessary to say the house must be confered in all actions, as it is the people and will of the people is enforced by Article J.This applies to 1.b and 1.c

2.b the mayors note, I sense a bureaucratic nightmare.

2.c Once again Article J already deals with this note.

But overall, nice work!

[Cyc]

Yeah, 2.b is a little scary, but it gives substance to the Mayor position.

[Comnenus]

Originally Posted by Immortal

For the house of the people, it may not be necessary to say the house must be confered in all actions, as it is the people and will of the people is enforced by Article J.This applies to 1.b and 1.c

2.b the mayors note, I sense a bureaucratic nightmare.

2.c Once again Article J already deals with this note.

But overall, nice work!

First, thanks for the kudos.
Second, I know y'all have more experience than this old country boy (Doing my best southern country gentleman politician impersonation). The way I envision it is that the mayors would make recommendations for their city to the Provincial Governor, who would review them. He, in turn would make the recommendations in the appropriate venue. However, that concept is a minor one. I can see how it could get unwieldy or create a problem when mayors aren't doing their jobs. However, if a PG isn't doing their job, at least you have the possibility that some or all of the mayors will still be doing theirs. It just wouldn't be coordinated. I read in one of the logs from DG4 (I think) that some Governor was absent a long time and his prosperous province went into a steep decline.
Third, I'll take a look at Article J. I don't have a copy printed out.

[Immortal]

oh believe me, I have an idea what you are thinking of for mayors.

After all: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=20458

Cyc and I have both been mayors of Khatovar. That pretty little town has always had a special place in my heart. I got my start in the civIII demogame doing that thread.

But those were largely role-playing ceremonial positions, we were never elected, and we would never suggest build queues beyond a fun little recommendation. Also we had no actual power.

I hope, in fact I WANT citizens to want to be mayors and such, and I definitely wouldnt mind them actually having the honorary title of mayors, as long as it A) has no actual power and B) isnt in the constitution.

[Comnenus]

Originally Posted by Immortal

oh believe me, I have an idea what you are thinking of for mayors.

After all: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=20458

Cyc and I have both been mayors of Khatovar. That pretty little town has always had a special place in my heart. I got my start in the civIII demogame doing that thread.

But those were largely role-playing ceremonial positions, we were never elected, and we would never suggest build queues beyond a fun little recommendation. Also we had no actual power.

I hope, in fact I WANT citizens to want to be mayors and such, and I definitely wouldnt mind them actually having the honorary title of mayors, as long as it A) has no actual power and B) isnt in the constitution.

What if we do have them make recommendations for their cities (perhaps limited in some way) to the PG, who actually makes the overall decision? It would allow people (especially new ones) to learn more about how the game works. We just delete the reference in the Article. You're not going to get people to want to be mayors if it is just a title.

[Immortal]

I wanted to be a amayor, and I had no official place in the government.

In fact, that was probably the most fun I had in the demogame.

[Comnenus]

Originally Posted by Immortal

I wanted to be a amayor, and I had no official place in the government.

In fact, that was probably the most fun I had in the demogame.

Was that because of roleplaying or what?

BTW, I just submitted some changes to the Article. Let me know what you think.

[Cyc]

I feel there is nothing really wrong with Comnenus' suggestion, but I see Immortal's poit to. So we'll take the Mayors out of the Constitution and maybe make some blurb in the CoL about how Governors should listen to the advice of the mayors and constituents, but the Govs make the final decisions.

[Immortal]

I would consider your proposal good, its much like the old proposal, but this one you will be able to credityourself with writing

As mayor it was fun to post screenshots of the town, discuss what would go well in the city, whats nice about the city. It was a fun way for me to gain some notoriety in the games realy period without having that constitution breathing down my neck, since I was little more than a conspicuous citizen.

[Cyc]

The 4:04 change looks good to me.

[Comnenus]

Originally Posted by Immortal

I would consider your proposal good, its much like the old proposal, but this one you will be able to credityourself with writing

Well, I am not looking for credit. I just think it is important to get it passed. I noted in my second post that it really just makes some changes to the original Article. Hopefully, getting people to look at it again will get it passed.

[zorven]

Why do we feel the need to include the full citizenry as a branch of government? It serves no purpose. Any citizen can propose a law, and all citizens are given the chance to vote to ratify a law. Simple, done...no need for a whole branch of government.

[Comnenus]

Originally Posted by zorven

Why do we feel the need to include the full citizenry as a branch of government? It serves no purpose. Any citizen can propose a law, and all citizens are given the chance to vote to ratify a law. Simple, done...no need for a whole branch of government.

I agree. I know it is a redundant expression. However, Article C requires a Legislative Branch and it is better to define it than to leave it unexpressed. There is no telling where it might lead to... a House of Lords mayhaps?

Edit: A better term might have been "polity", but what is done is done.

[Comnenus]

Discussion of this proposed Article will be coming to a close soon. Is there any other input?

[Comnenus]

Article E. Legislative Branch

The Legislative Branch will be formed of one House of the People and an Advisory
Council. 
      
       	1.The House of the People will be formed of the entirety of the
          citizenry and is responsible for the drafting of new Laws and
          Amendments to the Constitution.
		a.The House will present all proposed Articles, Amendments
                  and Laws to the Judicial Branch for review.
	2.The Advisory Council will be formed of the Provincial Governors.
                 They will advise the citizens of the state of their individual
                 provinces, any concerns there may be for said provinces,
                 and enumerate any goals they envision for their provinces. 
          	a.Each Governor shall determine any policies and procedures
                 needed to carry out their duties.
	   	b.Governors are responsible for the care, management,
                 use of the cities, and use of lands of a province through the
                 setting of build queues, allocation of laborers on tiles,
                 population rushes and drafting of citizen soldiers.

I guess I didn't do my due diligence. The previous poll I started for Article E was declared illegal by our Chief Justice since I had not posted a proposed poll. This is fair warning; this is a proposed poll. Discussion will be open for at least 24 hours.