Public Investigation: People vs. Eklektikos

This is an official PI thread. In the absence of a Judge Advocate, I am posting this thread, as is my duty as Chief Justice. Eklektikos has been charged of violating CoS.I.1.A-C
As always, the first two posts are reserved for the accused and the Public Defender (Eklektikos and Shaitan.) Please do not post until those two have responded, or until 24 hours has passed from the time this thread was begun.

Veera Anlai
Chief Justice

This will be an unusually short argument for me as The Code of Standards was simply not violated and there's not too many ways to say that.

A Judicial Ruling interpreted these rules to mean that Eklektikos could, in fact, change the chat time. Clarification of the rules to prevent such an odd interpretation is likely in order but the ruling was legal and Eklektikos did nothing more than follow the guidelines of that legal interpretation.

A point has been made that Eklektikos posted the rescheduling before he was officially elected. That is bunk as he very specifically pointed out that the instructions would come into effect only if he was elected. He was not attempting to usurp a presidential power he did not posess, he was giving people as much notice as possible regarding the chat time change.

I would like to move for an immediate dismissal as it is very plain that Eklektikos did nothing more than follow the rules as they were officially interpreted by the Judiciary.

As the Public Defender has said above, there really is very little to be said in response to these accusations, as they hold absolutely no water at all.

I did nothing more than follow the ruling of the Judiciary regarding the legality of rescheduling the turn chat, and advertised my intent to reschedule in the event of my election in an attempt to communicate the probable new time to the citizenry so that they might be able to attend. Where in all of this lies the alleged violation? Nowhere, that's where.

There really is little or nothing more to say, since this case is patently open and shut.

the presidency is no more than a few hours old and we've already had a PI. This should be a very interesting term.

I agree with Shaitan and Eklektikos, i dont think there was a problem. It was advertised in advance. We should read the threads in advance, just in case.

Boy Eklektikos has not even settled into his office yet and already he as a PI slaped to his head .

I have recived noticed of the time change in the Govenor thread of the Rhineland before the Turn Chats started. I beleve that Eklektikos should be Inoccent

The Public Defender and the Defendant have posted. All other citizens may now post their opinions.

I must agree with the opinion that this case just doesn't hold water.

Let's touch on a few points... Bear in mind that the Demogame officially runs on Greenwich Mean Time.

The President posted his schedule before his term began.

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President Eklektikos stated his intent to change the TC at 9:11 PM GMT on November 30. However, he did not officially change the schedule until 12:01 GMT on December 1, which was after the start of his term.

The President did not post his schedule on Sunday.

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Incorrect. The President posted his schedule at 12:01 AM GMT on Sunday Morning.

The President must post his schedule on a Sunday.

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CoS.I.1 reads as follows...
"This schedule may be updated each Sunday for the following week’s games."
The word 'may' makes all the difference; according to this, the President may set his schedule at any time of the week. The Sunday is just a suggestion. However, this point is still moot as Eklektikos posted his Turn Chat change on Sunday anyway.

Chat schedules posted on Sunday only apply to the following week.

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I sincerely hope this isn't the case! Sunday is the first day of the week, so if what you say is true there, then posted TC schedules wouldn't apply until *next* Sunday, and that would cause no end of scheduling problems. The term "following week" implies that Sunday, Monday through Friday, and the following Saturday.
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Although I understand being angry at not knowing of the changed TC time, Eklek did nothing wrong. He posted advanced notice, followed all proper legal procedures, and managed to rectify a small mistake made by the former President to the satisfaction of most.

In accordance with CoS.H.7, the next phase of the PI will begin 48 hours after discussion has petered out. At that point, the Judiciary will convene and decide whether to continue with the Trial Poll or dismiss the case.

Unlike my PI, I feel this one has no merit.

Same here. Have you noticed that Disorganizer seem to like going after presidents right on day one?

Originally posted by Chieftess
Same here. Have you noticed that Disorganizer seem to like going after presidents right on day one?

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Interesting, Disorganiser slaping PI on every new President's Fore head. Just plain craysy.

-Grand Admrial CivGeneral, Govenor of the North Provance.

To the violation:
The schedule WAS indeed posted on SATURDAY.
And it was posted for the same week.
As such, the COS was violated, as the COS EXPLICITLY states the schedule can ONLY be changed on Sunday for the FOLLOWING week.

Eklektikos changed the schedule on saturday for the same week (Note that GMT-Weeks start on Monday! We are based on european timezone with this forum!).

As Shaitan will sureley remember and as a review of phoenatican discussion on the violated rule will show, the "following week" phrase was explicitly put in there to preven someone putting up a schedule for the same week(!).

@CT:
show me evidence. i did not start a pi on shaitan for example. if our presidents follow the rules, they have no problem. you for your part seem to be a bit too fast in making wrong conclusions out of things you read

@disorganizer - None of that matters even the slightest bit. The T3 Judiciary made an official determination of the meaning of those rules. That is part of their powers and responsibility. The rules were interpreted such that EK could do exactly what he did.

No matter how you or I or anybody else interpret the rules, the Judiciary officially interpreted them and specifically allowed Eklektikos to reschedule the chat.

1) the announcement of the chat WAS first posted around 22:00 GMT (evidence, evidence, ...).

2) do we use GMT? then the week starts of monday, not on sunday. as such veeras statement (...week starts sunday...) is WRONG! in GMT-timezone, the week starts on monday, not on sunday!
and even worse:
if you take sunday as start of the week, then the posting at 00:30 AM GMT on the 1st would come to effect as earliest as of the 8th!!! as the statement sais it MUST be the NEXT week!!!

3) and even worse: in the official change (tc-schedule thread) he posted at 00:30 that the chat is at 00:15 in the official thread... (evidence). do we post backwards in time now?


in fact, i think its ridiculous to post the chat-times a few hours before the chat starts. i remember all those who complained when GF did that in DG1!

Quoted by Naervod, Term 3 Judiciary
However, Eklektikos, or whoever is elected President may change it between 12 and 3 AM, since it is Sunday for him. If the Term 4 President does not change it then the time stands and the chat will go as scheduled with Term 3 DP. So, if Ekelektikos wants to change the t/c time then it has to be between 12 and 3 AM GMT.

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Quoted by Bill, Term 3 Chief Justice
Shaitan can schedule the chat at that time, however the new President is free to set the schedule as they wish, and may well wish to announce in advance that they will not be using that time.

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Quoted by Naervod, Term 3 Judiciary
I think that the current datefor this particular turn-chat should stand, although he should not have done this since all official times are timed to GMT. He could have any time up to 11:59:59sPM GMT. (Veera note: This was implying shaitan's TC.)
Another way to solve this is to have Eklektikos schedule the t/c after polls are officially closed, but before the t/c starts, which would be somewhere between 12 and 3 AM GMT.

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There you have it. Three posts from two separate judicial members giving Eklek the go ahead to change the chat time before he did so.
Also, Eklektikos did NOT CHANGE the TC schedule until it was Sunday. He merely posted his INTENT to change it so as to give the citizens fair warning.
This would be like saying at 11:30, "I'm going to punch you at 12:01 AM!" The person may have said he was going to punch you at 11:30, but he wouldn't have actually punched you then. Get it? Intent.

Besides, the wording on that law (CoS.I.1.B) makes it elastic anyway. The law doesn't require the President to make the turn chat schedule on Sunday. It says the schedule may be updated on Sunday. Since it was a new term, it was the President's right to create a new schedule, and creating a new schedule doesn't have to be done on Sunday.

Sheesh, if you want to blame anybody, blame the former Prez for setting the TC outside of his term (Please don't!)

veera, you have a strange interpretation of our laws, tending to bend them to pleasure.

our rules say we only have ONE schedule, not a schedule for each term.
this means the eklektikos changed THE schedule... and not posted a new one.
this also means that his changes can only take effekt NEXT week, not this week, if he posted them on sunday and we assume sunday is the start of the week.

remeber the SENSE behind those rules was to PREVENT a fast-prenotice to happen.

if you have some time, please read through the posts of chattimes for dg1, term 1-2. there was explicit concern about GF posting the chattimes only 2-3 hours before the actual chat. and then the 24h rule was implemented. this rule was ONLY changed because it was unflexible, and thus was changed to allow to post a schedule 1 week advance. it was not developed in more detail BECAUSE the rule includes at least 24h prenotice (because of the "next week" part).

i wonder why our citizens dont post mor discontent about this. i would definitely not like to plan on going to a chat at a specific time and noticing it just finished because someone put it on schedule 2h earlier with just 2h prenotice.

and also think of the consequences of your interpretations:
it will DEFINITELY allow a DP to change the schedule as follows:
old schedule: chat at 2:00 AM on sunday morning gmt.
now at 23:50 GMT at saturday, he suddenly thinks he nees to have an early chat, and posts a schedule change to 00:05AM GMT.
and that would be completely legal from your interpretation :-(

well, with such interpretational bending of our rules its no wonder our citizens run away screaming.

and also remember: we should not bend our rules just for the personal preference of some of our officials... even if eklektikos would NOT have been able to show up at 03:00, Octavian, the 2nd in the COC could have held the chat as DP. there was NO need AT ALL for the change. Except that the pres wanted to do the chat himself...

This is not a debate over the symantics of the rules about scheduling turn chats. This is a PI that alleges that Eklektikos broke these rules. All of the arguments against Eklektikos are improperly directed towards him. They are fair arguments against the Judicial interpretation of the rules but do not offer a single bit of support for the PI charges against Eklektikos himself. To press the case against EK, you must take into consideration the rule clarification by the Judiciary.

The Judiciary used their power of defining the rules and decided that a new President could reschedule chats upon gaining office. Eklektikos was specifically told that he could reschedule the Dec 1 chat as soon as he took office. The rules as written are immaterial because they were legally interpreted in a way that gave Eklektikos the power to reschedule the chat in question.

The Chief Justice even posted in the chat instruction thread, specifically informing the incoming president that he could reschedule the chat (italics added by me):

Originally posted by Bill_in_PDX in the Chat Instruction Thread
Chief Justice Note

The Chief Justice office feels that the scheduling of a turn chat into the term of the incoming administration is not legally binding. The new President will have the right to or reschedule this chat at their descretion.

Given the preparations in place, I recommend holding the chat, but it is the option of the new President.

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To recap, Eklektikos did not break any rule. His actions were exactly in accordance with the rule interpretation from the Judiciary.

I sincerely hope that we do not put too much energy into a supposed violation of the Code of Standards, the least of the three books. While a complaint and possible rules discussion has merit, a full blown PI is just not necessary and a distraction from things that are far more important.

Originally posted by Chieftess
Same here. Have you noticed that Disorganizer seem to like going after presidents right on day one?

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Please refrain from making this personal.

Personally, I think shifting the turn chats a few hours before or after really has no merit. Most people that come to the turn chat are already in the #civfanatics chatroom. I once delayed a turn chat some 30 minutes (after forums outages) to get everyone at the chat. (I even made an annoucement myself). I do remember being told by someone that I could do so. Granted, it was a forum emergency. Remember when donsig played the preturn one morning? That was too early, since it messed up my trade instructions. But, this is 2 hours, and most instructions will be in the thread.

Originally posted by eyrei


Please refrain from making this personal.

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Just making a statement. I didn't say 'all'...

Sheesh! Point taken, Dis. You found some old wording in an old law that although still sound in the eyes of citizens such as yourself, is open to interpretation (Oh gee! What day does the week start on? ) You put your two cents in the loophole and made us listen to you lament about how Eklektikos almost brought the Demogame down in a crashing halt. In reality, Domestic Leader Eklektikos and President Eklektikos (titles separated by your GMT dateline) lubricated the situation we found ourselves in and allowed us to smoothly proceed into the next term. He helped the Nation of Fanatika and he did so with the backing of Judicial Law.

Quoting Dis:
well, with such interpretational bending of our rules its no wonder our citizens run away screaming.
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No, the reason I usually run away screaming is when I see PI's like this. We finally get something right without any crying and feet-stomping and name-calling, and someone has to start a PI.