Hidden Nationality

NewbieHere · Mar 16, 2004

In my mod, I assigned Geurilla with hidden nationality, and it proved to be a huge hit perferred by both the AI and me

In my game, the AI goes fanatical and sends waves of cavalry towards my barbaric army, and I doubt that my army would survive, so I wanted to move some defensively better units on to my pile so that the AI will not touch my army. Unfortunately, all I had were some warriors and swordsmen, so I ended the turn hoping that my geurillas will endure the attack.

Then the turn ended with the AI retreating all its troops... and my stack of barbarians wasn't confonted in any way, then I discovered that even a defensively weaker unit, which in my case, was a warrior, could "convince" the ai that attacking would be a declaration of war.

How about defending a city with a geurilla, would the ai attack? And if it would, would it capture the city? What if a warrior is also there, would the ai cease attacking? or would it just kill the geurilla and leave the warrior alone?

Point13 · Mar 16, 2004

test it and tell us about it. I might take the Guerilla idea!

mazzz · Mar 16, 2004

IIRC the ai can attck and take your city if it is only defended by a Hidden Nationality unit with out declaring war
hidden nationilty is a really cool thing to add to the game

NewbieHere · Mar 16, 2004

I played a few more turns, and using my geurillas, I was able to capture cities with absolutely no resistors!

Ain't that a relief! No need for massive amount of troops to quell them and defend against culture flips.

From what I've seen the ai only attacks when there isn't any normal units in the stack, for example if you have a warrior and a any hidden nationality unit in a stack, the ai won't attack it. But if the unit is isolated or in a stack of the same unit as itself, then the ai would have no mercy towards you. Same thing with cities, I'm not quite sure about if the ai is able to capture your city without declaring war by attacking the geurilla, I'll test this later.

Turner · Mar 17, 2004

DyP 2.01 has a Unit chain of Spy type units that all have hidden nationality.

HN units can and will attack cities, and can take those cities. Of course, the cities revert to the actual nationality of the HN. This can be useful for taking that city with a resource without going to war.

However, be very very careful doing this. When you have a HN unit, the AI tends to make a lot of them. They love to send them out and grab whatever they can with it. You'll have to escort workers (which gets expensive, having a unit guard the workers), and if you send settlers out unprotected they will get nabbed.

Fortunately, the DyP team figured this out rather early, and the HN units are weaker than an equvialent-era unit. If they were more powerful attack wise, I don't think the game would be playable. As it was, it was pretty unbalancing in DyP.

Anyways, be careful with it, and make sure it gets balanced out.

NewbieHere · Mar 17, 2004

You're right, I just experienced it, since my geurilla is 6.6.2 (I increased all industrial era infantry with one more movement point except rifleman) it's pretty unbalancing. As a fix, I decided to change it to 6.4.2 and require rubber, I also gave it blitz ability and ignore movement cost in forest and jungles, as a real geurilla is.

Maybe it's still unbalanced, maybe I should increase its cost?

Blasphemous · Mar 17, 2004

NH, that sounds awefully powerful, and another unbalancing thing about it is that the Guerilla is supposed to be a resource-free alterantive to the infantry, so lack of rubber is not detrimental.
You should add some other unit to fill this vacuum.

mad-bax · Mar 17, 2004

Turner_727 is correct. The latest version of Dyp has removed many of the hidden nationality units, and I am currently playing an SG with these changes. The AI won't build anything else but HN units and they roam the map looking for poorly defended cities and attack them. This cripples the AI who are constantly exchanging border cities with war never being declared. It's silly.

Turner · Mar 17, 2004

I wouldn't increase the cost, I would lower the a/d/m. Maybe something like 4/3/2, make it un-blitz, and keep the jungle/forest as grassland. Maybe an extra ten shields. Maybe not. . .

The_Unforgiven · Mar 17, 2004

If the recom. from Turner are taken, IMO you can leave the extra shields out

NewbieHere · Mar 17, 2004

I guess my geurilla is still too over-powered, maybe cracking its adm to 4.3.2 like turner suggested would be good.

I think the blitz and ignore jungle and forest really adds a special forces taste to the geurilla, so if it's not very unbalancing I'd keep it.

About rubber, I guess the geurilla was meant to be a non-rubber version of infantry, but it was just too close to rifleman, so changing its place really have no huge impact on the playing style, and not that many players really use geurillas, rubber is just too commonly found on most maps.

So as of right now for the same shields of a 6.10.2 infantry, you can get a barbaric 4.3.2 geurilla specializing in capturing unsuspecting enemy cities and workers and finishing off retreated enemy, how does that sound?

Edit: Also, remember that geurilla is all medieval foot units' upgrade, so cracking the adm down further probably isn't very good.

mazzz · Mar 17, 2004

is the newest dyp for conquests or ptw?

grishnak · Mar 17, 2004

It would be interesting if someone made all units have hidden nationality so that all players would have to endure an always war game.

Illusion13 · Mar 17, 2004

The thing is... Civ 3 isnt real life. Its game engine would make many of this real life like things impossible. Basically, you wouldnt want the AI to have roaming Guerrillas running everywhere. Its like, having advanced barbarians.

NewbieHere · Mar 17, 2004

Originally posted by Illusion13
The thing is... Civ 3 isnt real life. Its game engine would make many of this real life like things impossible. Basically, you wouldnt want the AI to have roaming Guerrillas running everywhere. Its like, having advanced barbarians.

Not really, just protect your workers with a pikeman or so, an attack of 4 really can't hurt ya, also, barbarians come out of nowhere and in stacks of at least 20, geurillas aren't a real threat, just a nuisance.

One thing is that if you have a ROP with a AI, will its geurillas get the movement bonus? If it does then I'm thinking removing blitz and jungle forest movement reductions. I've never tested this since I don't trust AIs with ROP.

Chieftess · Mar 17, 2004

Just to note, in C3C, hidden nationality units can't take a city anymore.

Turner · Mar 17, 2004

Originally posted by mazzz
is the newest dyp for conquests or ptw?

Still PTW. There were a lot of changes to C3C that made making a DyP version of it a pretty big task. I think Kal-El, Robo, & Isak decided if they were going to do that much work, they might as well redo the scenario. Look for Rise and Rule, which will hopefully be coming out soon.

Originally posted by Chieftess
Just to note, in C3C, hidden nationality units can't take a city anymore.

Really? Didn't know that. Haven't played with HN units in C3C yet. Actually, I like that. It bothered me that a HN unit could take a city and not declare war. Okay, so it's like a culture flip, but still. . . .

Hidden Nationality

NewbieHere

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Point13

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mazzz

Emperor

NewbieHere

Warlord

Turner

Deity

NewbieHere

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Blasphemous

Graulich

mad-bax

Deity

Turner

Deity

The_Unforgiven

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NewbieHere

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mazzz

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grishnak

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King

NewbieHere

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Chieftess

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Turner

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