Better graphic, doh!!!

I know Civilization series never put much emphasis on the graphic. However, beside the great game playing, a better visual can really enhance the gaming experience. It is like cake and milk. Cake (the game playing) tastes good, but without milk (the visual), something is missing. Civilization provides the best "cake". Why not also have the best "milk". The combination of the great game playing and the visual will be greater than the sum of both experiences.

Having better graphic will also increase the sales. This will bring people who disdain the Civilization series because of the poor graphic to buy the game. It will also attract graphic oriented gamers. This means more $$$$$$.

There is not much the Civilization series can improve upon in term of gaming. However, there is a new frontier. The graphic of the game need a lot of improvement. I hope civ4 can expand to this new frontier.

There are few suggestions in term of graphic I want to make.
1. A city should ¡§look¡¨ as if it has more than one square.
2. A more 3-D like map and terrain
3. A more realistic everything including city and map.
4. A more fancy looking city window

Yes, better graphics do add something to the game, but there are also two big problems:

(1) The more complicated the graphics and animations for units, improvements, etc., the harder it is for modders to add their own. Now, personally, I've never made a mod or even played one, but from browsing this site, I get the impression that a lot of people enjoy modding and playing mods, and I think it's great that Civ includes an editor and is (relatively) easy to mod. Flashy graphics would work against this.

(2) One can assume that the developers only have a certain amount of time/money/programmers to devote to creation of the new game, so any focus on fancy graphics will necessarily be at the expense of work on interface, AI intelligence, debugging, and other such things that I personally think are more important than graphics.

One reason I picked up Civ3 right away was because the graphics were so good!

Yes, the graphics of civ3 certainly are good enough. Only they could be altered a bit..

- The standard graphics are too yellow (thanks Snoopy )
- And it would be nice to see units not represented by a giant person, but thats just me

I think it's not really like milk, but more like Non-Toxic Glittery Glue.
It won't hurt you badly, and it will make the cake look all shiny, but it'll take your mouth (which represents the computer) alot longer to process the cake and deliver the goods to your stomache (which represents the gamer.)
I think the one thing Firaxis should work as little time as possible on is the graphics. Civ3 looks great, making modding tougher and loading longer is not exactly what I'm gonna buy cIV for.

Yes, we need a more fancy looking city window. I want to see a city of +4million poeple with more that 3 big buildings.

I think that the cities should expand( in proportion to their pop), you'll have big biuldings in the middle and smaller ones in the outskirts. And when you destroy a city you'll have ruins scaterd all over.

By the time Civ4 come out you'll probably have a new, better and faster PC.

Civ3's graphics are just fine IMO. They will be better in Civ4 even without us complaining about it, and I just hope that they keep the simple look. It's the content that matters in Civs. The graphics just need to be clear and (preferably) not repulsive. And I actually like the simple graphical looks of Civ3! (Imagine )

Yes, we will have better and newer computers by the time it comes out. Most of us. But what of those who won't? And anyway, even the better computers today take a while to load later-game turns in Civ3... No matter what, cIV will be a more demanding game technically... Graphics will just make it worse.

those who migh have a pc from 1998 are probably those who are complaning, and is they who probably will be buying a pc withing a year or two.

I am not taking about turnnig Civ in to a first person shooter.

Originally posted by EddyG17
those who migh have a pc from 1998 are probably those who are complaning, and is they who probably will be buying a pc withing a year or two.

I am not taking about turnnig Civ in to a first person shooter.

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Look, I have a Pentium4 with 2 ghz and 512MB of DDR RAM and an old video card soon to be upgraded. Civ often takes a while to load saves and to load late-game turns. There is no way that I will be significantly upgrading for cIV, even if it means I will have to deal with some loading times. And it will mean that, wether or not the graphics will be improved. The question is how much of a slowdown we're talking about. Better graphics will not improve the gameplay, or the replayability. They will actually hurt replayability because of the increased difficulty of modding. I don't know about you, but when I want eye candy I go play an FPS. When I want quality gameplay with infinite replayability, it's Civ that I go and play.

More to the point, better graphic = harder game to mod.

Do we really want a game where we're stuck with what Firaxis (and a microscopic team of fans with the ressources, time and experience) gives us and unable to make decent units, civilizations and so forth additions and changes because the graphic are too complex for anyone but a professional to work on them?

I say unit-wise, Civ III is already troublesome enough for the graphics at least.

Unitis not need to be changed.
But the terrain they move in could, maybe you could see waves in your coast

Graphics are fine.

I agree that graphics should be improved. I think it would be stupid for developers to use simpler graphics so palyers can "mod easier". There needs to be forward progress in all areas, even graphics. Does it have to be an insane jump forward? Not at all. There are 2 possibilities here: 1. Firaxis releases Civ4 with the same graphics as Civ3. I beleive this would get many complaints, and I think this scenario is very rare in the industry. The only other possibility is that graphics are redone, for better or for worse. And I hope they are better. Maybe they could just up the resolution a bit so there are more pixels to work with? I don't think they should move to full 3D, that would be way too much of a slow down.

I gotta stress this point... Civ does not need better graphics. The graphics right now look very good, and they are easily modded so we get these awesome fan-made terrain sets that we can use if we don't like the originals... Not to mention mods and units of course.
I cannot see any way that 3D could improve this game. None at all. Even multiple levels of terrain elevation could easily be done with 2D.
Waves off my coast? No thanks, I rather my processor calculates the AI's descisions than the movement of water. -.-

Originally posted by Shyrramar
They will be better in Civ4 even without us complaining about it.

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This in undoubtedly true: Civ 2 had better graphics than Civ 1, and Civ 3 better than Civ 2. There's no way they'll use exactly the same graphics engine for Civ 4, no matter what we all say here. I think the issue isn't whether better graphics would be a good thing or not, its whether they'll spend too much time on fancy graphics and not enough on great gameplay.

Originally posted by FrenchElvis
I agree that graphics should be improved. I think it would be stupid for developers to use simpler graphics so palyers can "mod easier". There needs to be forward progress in all areas, even graphics. Does it have to be an insane jump forward? Not at all. There are 2 possibilities here: 1. Firaxis releases Civ4 with the same graphics as Civ3. I beleive this would get many complaints, and I think this scenario is very rare in the industry. The only other possibility is that graphics are redone, for better or for worse. And I hope they are better. Maybe they could just up the resolution a bit so there are more pixels to work with? I don't think they should move to full 3D, that would be way too much of a slow down.

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I disagree strongly with your second sentence, but the rest of your post is reasonable. Of course they won't use the same graphics as Civ3: it wouldn't really be a brand-new game if they did. And, naturally, we all hope the redone graphics are not worse. But things like where the developers put the most focus/money/time (art vs. gameplay vs. debugging, etc.), what kind of processor power the new game requires, and how easy it is to mod are all valid concerns.

No one's advocating that Civ 4 be playable on a 286, naturally it will require more processor power than Civ 3, just as Civ 3 required more than Civ 2 and 2 more than 1. And no one's suggesting that the developers make a lower quality game just so its easier to mod. We're just hoping that Civ 4 continues the Civ tradition of being playable on the typical computer of its day (as opposed to a gamer's high-end machine), of focusing on gameplay above fancy graphics, and of being friendly towards scenarios and mods. Better graphics don't necessarily conflict with these traditions, but I think there's a great fear that they could, especially if they try to do a fully 3D game.

Well said, judgement.

Yes, I suggest better graphic aspect too.
One level more for the zoom.
Cities hold their original aspect even alfter conquest, only the color changes.

We are not taking about 3D
Cities could expand acording to their landscape, skyscrappers in grassland, suburbs in hill.
When you bomb a city which has expanded maybe you could see at the closest zoom small ruins.
Cities in the desert should look different that cities in in tundra.
Grassland could become more grassy.
roads and railroad could be redone so that they curve according their land scape, when you build a road from mountain to mountain maybe you could see a small brige there in between.

EddyG17, even that would mean - with the current system of graphics - about ten times as many files for city graphics. The result would be that to make a total conversion mod people would have to work way harder, as if it's not hard enough already... I think it could be nice to have graphics for a city in decay or destruction, but seperate graphics for every terrain is really unnecessary.